Cottonmouth bite

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But, heck, I was a fisheries management major. I didn't take herp, wasn't forced to.
I geared all my studies to wildlife biology so I got everything from snakes to fish to birds to mammals. I focused more on herps since those are my fav. Alot of good all my wildlife knowledge is doing me now. I'm stuck in an office job for the Louisiana Department of Enviro Quality. At least I have a few of my side projects that get me out into the field.
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Well, I switched to fisheries from wildlife (Texas A&M) when a TPW biologist on a field trip told me that's where the jobs were. Wasn't long before I figured out twice zero is still zero...hey, I made it out of calculus even if by the skin of my teeth...so I decided to minor in chem which I had some aptitude for after the initial shock of freshman chem, amazingly. I went to work first for Dow in process research, pilot plant tech, then got a job down here doing stack gas and waste water analysis/EPA abatement for the start up of a PVC plant in 82. I quickly figured out how crooked the management was, didn't want any of their poop rolling back down hill on me, kept meticulous notes at the time. Finally, I transfered to QC under the guise that I wanted on 12 hour rotating shift. :rolleyes:

So, we all can't be herpetologists, I reckon, LOL! I figured since I wanted to work outdoors, next best thing was to make more money and afford to PLAY outdoors. At least I didn't have to wear a suit to work all those years. LOL

If you want a real hoot of a read, read what I've found just searching my former employer. You might be interested since they have a plant in Baton Rouge and the management is no better than it ever was, buncha lyin', back stabbin', money grubbin' SOBs. This link supports my premise. :D I mean, not that I got disgruntled or burnt out or anything. I mean, I did enjoy Limnology in school, just that in practice, it's pretty boring week after week and there's more danger to it than one sees at first blush when you work for such a place. I am proud of the fact I was able to retire without getting sent to prison for working there. LOL!

Note the part about Charlie Trie. That one's rich. LOL I didn't realize they were instrumental in that when it was going down in the 90s. Clinton slid right out of that one, too, like the snakes you know about, LOL!

http://www.pvcinformation.org/assets/pdf/Formosa_Plastics_report.pdf
 
one thing that i learned is a young snake is more likely to give you a large dose of venom than an adult snake.so a big snake might be better than a small snake if you could pick which one to get bitten by.
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this is a misconception. The ammount and lethality of a snakes venom is relative to the size/age of the snake, and it's use for the venom.

Please note the following is not true in every case, but is the general tendency of venomous serpents.

ammount of venom injected - determined mostly by the size of the snake, larger snakes tend to utilize larger ammounts of venom. The situation can also be a factor in this aspect. A snake that is defending itself will tend to inject much more venom than it would if it was hunting.

Lethality of venom - this is where the age and purpose factors come in. Very young snakes tend to have more potent venom than their seniors. Young snakes need more potent venom for two reasons. first, they are smaller and cannot produce the volume of venom and older and larger version could, so the venom needs to be more potent to be effective. Second young snakes are more vulnerable to predators, and more likely to use their venom defensively, which leads me to the purpose factor. If a snake uses it's venom primarily to hunt, the venom tends to be less potent than that of a snake that uses venom primarily as a defensive tool.

the type of venom also varies from species to species, and can depend alot on use. IIRC, defensive use seems to prefer neurotoxins, as they tend to act very quickly, and will allow the snake to escape. While hunters tend to use hemotoxins. (my memory on venom types is not they best, and I may well be remembering incorrectly) Venom type also seemed to be affected by frequency of use, in as much as it relates to how costly it is for the snake to make the venom. Defensive uses are less frequent than hunting uses. It would make sense that a hunting snake will need to produce more venom over the course of it's life than a snake that uses venom primarily for defence. A snake that uses venom less often can afford to invest more resources into it's creation, while the snake that uses venom more often, needs a toxin that is less costly to make.

remember, I am an amatuer herpatologist, not an expert, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
 
Geez, guys.

It's simple. Just stick yer hand out there and when he bites ya take a look at the bite.

If'n theys 2 big ol holes in front a the smaller holes, then itsa moc'sin.

If'n there aint it aint.

Gotta teach you young'un's everthang!
 
we dont have no snakes in norway ...


only killer seagulls.
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I'll take my chances with Snakes thank you! LOL Your whole freezing to death thing would scare the pee out of me.

Just think of how the Australians feel. Everything down there is venomous!
 
Yeah, I ain't going to Australia. Even the kittens are venomous, I think. :uhoh:

I spend some time each year down in the coastal swamps of NC hunting. Seen some big cottonmouths and one copperhead that was nearly 3 feet. It struck the tire of my truck as I drove a little too close to it trying to get a better look at it. Didn't dry bite either. Venom was running down my tire. Never personally been bitten though.

I work in social services and was a case manager for children with developmental disabilities for a time. Had a young girl on my caseload once pick up a copperhead and get bitten. She was young and had autism. To her the snake was a pretty stick that moved. She spend 4 days in the hospital and her hand was twice the size of mine (she was 4, I'm 6' and 240lbs with big paws).

Snakebites are nasty things.....
 
this is a misconception. The ammount and lethality of a snakes venom is relative to the size/age of the snake, and it's use for the venom.

Please note the following is not true in every case, but is the general tendency of venomous serpents.

ammount of venom injected - determined mostly by the size of the snake, larger snakes tend to utilize larger ammounts of venom. The situation can also be a factor in this aspect. A snake that is defending itself will tend to inject much more venom than it would if it was hunting.

Lethality of venom - this is where the age and purpose factors come in. Very young snakes tend to have more potent venom than their seniors. Young snakes need more potent venom for two reasons. first, they are smaller and cannot produce the volume of venom and older and larger version could, so the venom needs to be more potent to be effective. Second young snakes are more vulnerable to predators, and more likely to use their venom defensively, which leads me to the purpose factor. If a snake uses it's venom primarily to hunt, the venom tends to be less potent than that of a snake that uses venom primarily as a defensive tool.

the type of venom also varies from species to species, and can depend alot on use. IIRC, defensive use seems to prefer neurotoxins, as they tend to act very quickly, and will allow the snake to escape. While hunters tend to use hemotoxins. (my memory on venom types is not they best, and I may well be remembering incorrectly) Venom type also seemed to be affected by frequency of use, in as much as it relates to how costly it is for the snake to make the venom. Defensive uses are less frequent than hunting uses. It would make sense that a hunting snake will need to produce more venom over the course of it's life than a snake that uses venom primarily for defence. A snake that uses venom less often can afford to invest more resources into it's creation, while the snake that uses venom more often, needs a toxin that is less costly to make.

remember, I am an amatuer herpatologist, not an expert, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.
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they guy that told me that was the chief herpatologist and manager of the reptile's for the tulsa zoo. he said an older snake takes much longer to reproduce thier venom supply so they tend to be conservative sometimes even dry biting (no venom injection at all) and young snakes tend to give you the full load. so don't be offended if i take what you said " with a grain of salt"
 
Cottonmouth

In my younger days we hunted cottonmouths. We would go into the bottoms and find their dens. They smell like rotten eggs. We could smell them before you could see them. We would sneak in to a den slowly. After you could see the den we would stop and start looking for them. It was nothing to see 10 or 12 lying around the den hole. I used an H&R single-shot .410 pistol (12'' barrel) to dispatch them. Have killed as many as 20 in one outing. Let me say again, they smell terrible!!!!
 
I think I was 5 or 6 once on a camping trip in KY. My mom (sans glasses) woke up in the morning and went to pick up a dirty sock lying on the floor of the tent just inside the door. It moved and startled her, as it was a small copperhead. She made all us kids sit on the cots and screamed for help. Some of the guys we were with came and dispatched it.
 
Cottonmouths and I go back many years. Killed a bunch of them. I wrote a story called "Callie Derrick" that deals with these lovely animals and a crazy woman during the Civil War. Its been printed in several magazines. Its about seven pages long and too much for here. If interested send me a email to sgtroadkill@yahoo or pm and I'll send it to you, if you are interested in cottonmouths I really think you would enjoy it. I'll post it here if the Mods allow.
 
slicing open a snikebite and trying to apply suction to draw out the venom is as useless as cutting open a shot and trying to draw out the injection. My wife is a doctor and has given me a thorough education on the subject of the medical treatment of snakebites(she's worried I'm going to get bit someday while I'm out on a hunt). Slicing open the bite points and/or applying suction only exacerbates the damage being done. All that is accomplished by this is to increase the rate at which the toxin spreads, by increasing the blood flow to and from the affected area. If you are bitten by a snake, keep your heart rate as low as possible, and quickly seek professional help. If the bite is on an extremity(ie foot or hand) lightly apply a turniquet just above the bite. Not so much to completely cut off circulation, but enough to slow it down. The only ways to deal with venom is to let it run its course, or to dose with anti-venom.

@saddlebaum - I take no offence to it, I'm just an amateur with a couple of exotic pets. I've done some research on the subject, but am not formally educated, nor as experienced as a professional.
 
Okay so I did some more looking around on the subject.

No source recommends anytime of cutting into the wound. Period.

The Sawyer extractor seems to be up for debate. Some say go for it others say do not use it. Makes me think maybe I should test mine on a bee sting and just see.

Tourniquets are a no. The blood flow should not be constricted in anyway and tight clothing and bracelets should be removed in case of swelling.

Limb immobilization method is still the most recommended method. This involves splinting the wound and putting it in a sling so that the wound will not be moved. You must then seek immediate medical attention.
 
PatrickHenry, Thanks for the correction on the Sawyer kit. I mistakenly thought that the Sawyer kit included the cut. I did not understand that it was only the suction component.
 
From this discussion I thought of another research project, if it hasn't been done already. I've read a bunch of journals on the differences between hemotoxic & neurotoxic venom in snakes. Has anyone read or heard anything on why the two different types developed?
 
Yes, yes, I know those terms are misleading as snake venom is a combination of different toxins. But at the present there really isn't any better termanology to use. Either way my train of thought is why the development for different "types" of venom. Why do different species have different types of venom, why not the same type for every species & how did the specific toxins develop. The simple answer is species developed in different parts of the world, eat different types of prey, have different demands, bla bla bla, but I want to dig deeper than just a surface level answer. But that project is going to have to go on the shelf with all the other ones I'd like to get to. Right now I'm working on a project on Nerodia fasciata.
 
There was a thing on Discovery channel about snakes and stories of snake bites, was only a few weeks ago cause I was in bed with this friggin' flu I still have watching it. One guy was stuck in the desert of west Texas/New Mexico for a week after being bit and survived, but he was hallucinating much of it and wasn't a good time. LOL Nearly rotted his arm off, but docs saved it. They had a warden in Africa bit by a mamba that kept his cool, walked out slow, kept his heart rate down. He got to the hospital, they had no anti-venom, but his kidneys eventually got rid of the nero-toxin. Said he couldn't move a muscle and they kept him alive on a respirator. They said the mamba's nero-toxin affects the synaps by blocking acetylcholine, well, they just said it blocked the chemical transmission across the synapse, I added the acetylcholine thing (the hormone that crosses the synapse). There are nerve toxins that block acetylcholinerase, too, and you twitch yourself to death because your nerves can't stop firing, chemical jumps the synaps, but doesn't get broken down on the other side, so the nerve just keeps firing. Anyway, beyond all that, sounds to me that I'd rather be bitten by a viper with myotoxin than that! Better to have maggots growing in your dead muscle mass than die in minutes. They said that folks that panic after a mamba bite have been known to run 100 yards and just keel over dead. OUCH. Add africa to the list of places you really wanna wear your south Texas Ropers (snake boots).
 
A Cottonmouth (Water Moccasin) bite can be potentially serious, more so than a Copperhead bite. Most herpetologists place the danger of American venomous species in the following order:

Coral Snake
Rattlesnakes
Cottonmouth
Copperhead

As for first aid, the movement is away from the old cutting the area and sucking the poison out and towards trying to stay calm and get to medical attention immediately. There are many sites for additional information but here's two that I use quite a bit.

http://www.cnah.org/

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/
 
I find the coral snake being at the top of the list kind of odd. I'd think they'd be place third or fourth behind rattlesnake & cottonmouth. Coral snakes rare to find, small, have rear fangs with a small mouth. Meaning to get invenomated by a coral snake you'd have to get bit in the right spot like the web of your fingers otherwise it probably couldn't open its mouth wide enough for the fangs to get to you. How often do you hear of someone getting tagged by a coral snake.

On the other hand the venom is extremely potent. I've heard from professors that if you do get invenomated it may be only one or two drops & it would probably take a few days for the venom to take effect on you body but when it does you drop dead.
 
I was wondering the same thing, but then realized that it all depends on how they defined "danger" in this context. It sounds like its based entirely on the toxin itself.
 
Yeah, ranking of toxicity. Coral snake venom is the worst, I've always read. Fortunately, you almost have to volunteer to be bitten to actually have a problem with them. They're not aggressive; kids have been known to pick one up, put it in a pocket and carry it to school and not get bitten.
 
Coral Snake venom is the same as a Cobra's, neurotoxic. Although small and rarely bites, when it does it is quite dangerous.
 
Yeah i guess it all depends on what you mean by danger. Toxicity they're on the top of the list. The danger of actually being bitten & invenomated they're toward the bottom.
 
Cottonmouths

I had a friend bitten twice by the same snake in an eye blink of each other. Not only is venom an issue with Cottonmouths but so is infection. Cottonmouths are of course armed with venom but they also have a bacterria in their mouths and around their teeth, not just the fangs. They tearwhen they come out of a bite, this bacterria is much like the type found in Monitor lizards teeth and mouth. They not only eat live animala but also dead and decaying things, fish, frogs etc. Also some one said you can smell them and boy that is the truth.
 
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