Could be the answer to our political dreams?

[Firethorn]

I have to agree with Glock Glockler.

In areas where the corruption is under control and free markets are available, people prosper. I've read stories of areas where they open those sweatshop factories up. This is in dead-poor areas where the income is still the agrarian one of centuries past. There were a number of results, positive for the region.

1. People earned more money, had access to at least some medical care.
2. Birth rate dropped, at least from what it was before.
3. Child labor dropped. Parents working in the factory were much less likely to send their children to work, and far more likely to insist on education.
4. Secondary services start popping up. The fields start to industrialize too.

It'll take them generations to industrialize. But then, it took us over a hundred years. They'll do it in 3-4, all goes well.

Poor regions generally aren't poor today because of economic reasons, they're poor because of political reasons. And it costs blood to change that quickly.

Oh, and part of the reason that Cuba isn't doing "that badly", despite the people who keep trying to escape it in various creative and dangerous fashions, is that they were subsidized by Russia at great expense for a long time. It was a political symbol. Heck, look at China. When did their economy start booming? When they opened their markets!

 

[Shooter 2.5]

RealGun,
About a year ago, someone posted a link to a dem website and once in awhile, we get a couple over here. It's a one way street. They can post here but don't try to post there. You won't last more than a couple of posts before you're banned.
I'm really not interested in trying to convert a dem voting "gun owner" because they won't discuss gun rights. They're more interested in converting us than trying to support their Second Amendment and I can tell you that ain't going to happen.

 

[Art Eatman]

For those interested in a lot of the "why" of Arab world problems, suggested reading is Bernard Lewis' "What Went Wrong?" (Subtitle: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response) Lewis is Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton. There are many other good books on the subject, of course, but this guy is near the top of the heap in knowledge...

A rather sad point about the Arab countries is that except for oil, they export almost nothing of any value. Camel saddles and rugs just don't cut it. Crude oil and some refined products are an extraordinarily high percentage of GDP.

US aid to Israel has primarily been of a military nature. It is interesting to compare the agricultural productivity there between pre-1948 and post-1948. And, among other things, the Israelis are teaching the rest of the world about the use of high-saline water for irrigation.

Cuba? Pre-Castro, they were self-sufficient in oil/refined products. After nationalization, the equipment fell into disrepair. Cuba has had free trade with Canada, Mexico and other Caribbean and European countries since Castro took power. If they had any sort of productive economy, they could actually have some medicines to administer in that free-healthcare structure. A lack of direct contact for trading with the US hasn't been any sort of factor in causing shortages. That the loss of the USSR's $4 billion/yr subsidy created problems is indicative of the failure of Castroism.

All ya gotta do to figure out who are the good guys and who are the bad guys is watch the direction of refugee movement. The movement might stem from war or from economic conditions. The important point is that refugees always know, regardless of what politicians and the mediahcrities say.

People fled FROM the Nazis and Japs. The Vietnamese fled south. People fled the USSR and communism. They fled from Saddam. And, as regards economic systems, they flee to capitalistic countries (realizing, here, that no capitalistic country is lacking some sort of socialistic facets to its socioeconmic structure).

While the amounts of personal sovereignty are relative, the US is among the highest in this regard. IMO, it's our Bill of Rights, damaged as it is, which makes it so. Add to that the fact that our population is made up of the world's rejects and malcontents, and you then have a large number of folks who'll argue and squabble to keep their personal sovereignty to the greatest extent possible.

Roland, one thing to remember: There are a lot of us Old Farts here for whom discussions like these are on about the 200th go-round. I guess I got into these same political arguments at FSU in 1958. I got into the gun-control arguments in 1967/1968. That doesn't make me anything special, except that I got a lot of mileage behind me. And, of course, it means that I've actually seen a lot of recent history first-hand instead of from books. One's age is not at all an issue of good/bad; it's a matter of time and mileage. Nobody was born an expert anything. But, as I learned long ago, it's not really wise for the young to be totally convinced of the righteousness of their conclusions. I, like all younguns, did--and got my butt handed to me on numerous occasions.

Time itsownself, if you live through it, plus residence and extensive travel around the world, are helpful. But there seems to be no substitute for just paying attention to the whole world, rather than just small parts of it.

38 to 37: Life Is Good, and we got us a brand new year to play with--and hope not to mess up...

, Art

 

[Roland of Gilead]

While the amounts of personal sovereignty are relative, the US is among the highest in this regard. IMO, it's our Bill of Rights, damaged as it is, which makes it so. Add to that the fact that our population is made up of the world's rejects and malcontents, and you then have a large number of folks who'll argue and squabble to keep their personal sovereignty to the greatest extent possible.
I agree with you 100% on the Bill of Rights. I am as pro-personal sovereignty as any one. I dislike being bossed around as much as the next guy. I keep myself well armed because I am aware that this is the only thing that guarantees my personal freedoms. I think (like I assume all of you do) that we live in the greatest country on the Earth. However, unlike many of you, I don't think that is saying a whole hell of a lot. Just because life is worse everywhere else doesn't make it perfect (or anywhere close) here. FI, we imprison our population at a much higher rate than any other civilized nation in the world. The US has 5% of the world's population, and 25% of its prison population. I am not for turning out the prisons, but I find it hard to believe that we are so much more criminally inclined than other industrialized nations.



Roland, one thing to remember: There are a lot of us Old Farts here for whom discussions like these are on about the 200th go-round.
Point taken. I have also argued the merits of capitalism vs. socialism more times than I can shake a stick at. Part of what I wanted to do with this post is put up a flag. I know every gun forum I've discussed my political inclinations on has had about the same reception for my statements. I also know that I am not the only one who thinks this way, and that others may keep their mouth shut so they don't get the flack that I got from speaking my mind. It was for those persons that I chose to speak up, so that they would know that I, also am on these boards, and that they might take comfort in a like mind. I really didn't think I'd convert any capitalist pigs to my side, as trying to do that is usually about as productive as :banghead:. I do hope I made some people think outside their normal parameters though.

I'm really not interested in trying to convert a dem voting "gun owner" because they won't discuss gun rights. They're more interested in converting us than trying to support their Second Amendment and I can tell you that ain't going to happen.

As a straight democratic ticket voting gun owner (quotations or not 2.5, I bet I got more gats than you) I am always open to discuss gun rights. I do not agree with the Democrats positon on gun ownership or even their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. Like I said earlier, I think the founding fathers intended for there to be a well armed (and well trained) populace of free men in these United States. I do agree with them on virtually every other social issue on the table. I can not vote GOP only for their RKBA stance because then I'd have to turn around and stop them from enacting anti-choice legislation by any means necessary. Voting for someone who's policies would be, in my interpretation, a violation of my mother or sister's constitutional rights just so I can retain the means by which to violently resist them doesn't seem right to me. I opt instead to vote with a clear concience for the party that I think is most pro-freedom, pro-equality, and resort to violent struggle with the same clear concience if they attempt to trample my right by trying to disarm me. I could vote for Kerry/Edwards because I assure you, not they (nor anybody else) was gonna confiscate my weapons. Not while I was around to demand liberty or death.

If you read some posts that are way out there and choose to respond, aren't you being baited by a troll?
I am a gun owner. I expressed my opinions, which BTW are worth just as much as (and better thought out than, I might add) yours. If you can't handle that, by all means place me on ignore. If you have something productive to add, like some of these other gentlemen, do that too. Hell you can even be an ??????? like some of them and I'll respect you more than if you just bury your head in the sand cause it hurts your eyes to look at something you don't agree with. That is pretty pink-sissy IMHO. Troll? Look at some of my other posts, and you'll see that they are about guns. Guns I own, and shoot, and have accumulated some knowledge about. And you calling names won't change that a bit.

If those rug fibers are soo nasty to breath in they should team up and do a group by for some of these, it would not even be a half a day's wages. Ain't capitalism grand

You sir, I am done with. I don't associate with ???????s.


cool Roland... you hit Europe. I'm happy for you. Now... have you hit any of those Third World countries yet? Actually lived among the people in Thailand, or Malasia, or China, or Africa, or...?

Nope, but out of my graduating class of 216, one of us ( a young man I've known since 4th grade and whom I email at least twice a month, sometimes a lot more) is currently in Afghanistan, where he has been a missionary for most of the last 5 years. He had been home for about a year when 9/11 happened and he immediately began trying to get back there. Within 3 months, he was back. He is a Southern Baptist missionary, and not-at-all socialist minded. Yet we see eye to eye on many issues. At my little HS the few "commies" that there were got along best with some of the jesus freaks, mostly because we were all genuinely interested in helping others, and recognized each other as such. Another of us, a young man who was a member of the same United Methodist Church as I, just got back from the Republic of Georgia. He was a missionary there for about 3 years. He has been trying to get back since the Bedlan massacre. I draw off these comrades experiences, though 2nd hand to me, when I formulate my socio-economic positions.

And this should just about do it. I am bored with this thread now, and I know most of you have to be tired of looking at it. You know who I am and where I stand anyway. That was the point of the whole excercise. Back to the guns, that is why I came here in the first place.

 

[carebear]

any capitalist pigs

Hey! That's "Imperialist running-dog lackey" to you pal!

 

[thorn726]

Uh you guys are missing the big issue

this is so ridiculous and will NEVER happen.

number one reason= on the news tonight,
Arnold good ol' JERk is complaining , asking the Fed for more $$$.
WHY?
becasue we pay out more to federal taxes than we get back.
California is Profit for the US gov't.
the only thing we get is the protection of the military (what a seceded CA thinks it will do for defense is beyond me) but of course with the large number of bases and test sites here, and the supply links for the entire west....
we wouldnt give up the south, we will NEVer give up CA either. forget it.

what next? kick out NV for having hookers?
kick out Utah for rampant mormonism?

these differnces in opinion are why we have state lines.

like the SC sheriff who told me "you go on back up to North Carolina with that nonsense" (we were passing thru and slept in a van)

Cali is the US wacko warehouse , you don't like it don't come here, and enjoy spending my taxes

like some other people have mentioned, SF and LA are NOT CA in general, and there are plenty of gun people here too.

 

[ServiceSoon]

Considering the Free State Project; the lesson learned is to get the federal government out of our business.

 

[scout26]

Holy Threadnecromancy, Batman !!!

 

[Jeff White]

Political topics are no longer permitted on THR. Please read the sticky at the top of the forum.