Cowboy Home Defense

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Wondering why you guys are choosing 357? Might squeeze an extra 38 or two in the tube. I'll choose my Henry 45 lc X rifle. It looks weird anyway so a red dot and flashlight on it wouldn't hurt, would it?
 
As usual whenever shotguns are mentioned in a home defense role... you get to see the usual mis-information from a few of those that respond... For the record "I want something you have to aim" and " I don't want all those little holes" are both just a tad off the mark...

Now for the truth.. A standard 18" barreled 12ga shotgun with an improved cylinder choke - disperses 00buckshot at 1 inch per meter... That means at 7 meters (a bit more than 21 feet ) - that pattern is only seven inches... In other words - if you're not aiming... you're not hitting... period. Add to that the distance of most interior points in an average house will hardly be much more than 7 meters... and you begin to see why the myths we've all seen (and enjoyed) on popular entertainments about shotgun work at close quarters needs to be put to rest most of the time... Expand that out to 15 meters and you only get a pattern that's 15" in diameter - and once again - you'd better be aiming... Take a tape measure and do a bit of checking at key points inside your house (say distance from your front door to the farthest place inside your home where you have a clear sight range to that same front door...) and you'll begin to have a much better idea of the ground you might some day need to defend... Now do some measuring in your backyard where you will find much more room to maneuver - but remember for defensive purposes you're going to have some legal problems if you're not actually defending the interior of your home...

Lastly the one item most fail to consider about shotguns in a close quarters (under 15 meters) situation... and it's this... A solid center of mass hit with standard 2 3/4" 00buck is simply a one shot - fight ender. Anyone that doubts this needs to see close up the real world wounds that result... Yeah, I know, someone scared to death blasting away without actually aiming is very likely to put lots of holes in everything except their assailant - but you'd get that same result with any other type of firearm as well... So maybe, just maybe that old shotgun isn't a slouch at all in a home defense situation...

Forgot to note - as already mentioned there is a "cowboy action" pump shotgun for anyone in that world wanting to use a pump gun - that actually does have a hundred years of close quarters performance - in the real world against armed assailants of many different varieties.. As for me, a plain jane modern pump shotgun... my choice - that standard 870... with the ammo I've already described.
 
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I guess my question is why. The only way selecting such firearms for this role makes sense to me is that if these are all that is available to a homeowner, and/or the laws or finances make it impossible to get something of a more modern design with better capabilities, likely at a lower price than what it would cost to purchase the lever gun or double.
 
FL-NC said:
I guess my question is why. The only way selecting such firearms for this role makes sense to me is that if these are all that is available to a homeowner, and/or the laws or finances make it impossible to get something of a more modern design with better capabilities, likely at a lower price than what it would cost to purchase the lever gun or double.
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Or if inherited/gifted. Or simply, like most internet forum questions, speculation for the sheer heck of it.
 
35 Whelen said:
Well evidently some do since he stated- I have built a lot of AR’s for cattlemen and ranch riders out west, largely the last bastion of real range riding cowboys in the US.

I mean good grief...we made it exactly five posts into this thread before someone brought the subject of the AR into a thread whose original question has exactly nothing to do with AR's.

35W
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My point is that folks playing cowboy by insisting on outmoded firearms in their defensive strategy in their suburban homes aren’t doing themselves any favors. Real cowboys today are using what they can afford and what meets the demands.

Buy a levergun, or a single action revolver, or a coach gun in a fit of whimsy if you like, but these are not good choices for home defense - especially if the interest is just to play cowboy…
 
Varminterror said:
My point is that folks playing cowboy by insisting on outmoded firearms in their defensive strategy in their suburban homes aren’t doing themselves any favors. Real cowboys today are using what they can afford and what meets the demands.

Buy a levergun, or a single action revolver, or a coach gun in a fit of whimsy if you like, but these are not good choices for home defense - especially if the interest is just to play cowboy…
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Fine, but the OP didn't ask the opinion of self-appointed experts on the subject on AR vs. a lever action or SxS shotgun. If that's what you want to discuss, then start your own thread on the subject.

35W
 
35 Whelen said:
Fine, but the OP didn't ask the opinion of self-appointed experts on the subject on AR vs. a lever action or SxS shotgun. If that's what you want to discuss, then start your own thread on the subject.

35W
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When I went to work for the Texas Highway Patrol, we carried the Winchester 94 .30 WCF until around 1990. Fun fact!

edit to add my choice: hammerless 12 gauge coach gun
 
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JShirley said:
Well...duh. Having your home invaded is, by definition, invasive. But I was on the guard force when a drunk managed to get onto Fort Myer and started banging on the Sergeant Major of the Army's door.

Now, had the SMA "already lost"? No, he was very much intact when we rolled up. If we had pulled up to see him lying in a pool of his own blood, he would have already lost.

Your definitions are way off, and dangerous, because someone might give credence to them. I, as the righteous law-abiding homeowner, haven't "lost" unless a family member of mine is injured, or I am killed. A failure isn't good, but people being people, failures happen daily.

Nothing is impenetrable in the long run. Given the right combination of time, money, skill, determination, and sometimes sheer numbers, any barrier can be eventually defeated. Winning is keeping my family safe, with the resources we need to survive intact. Even a stack of bodies in my living room isn't "losing", so long as I am in the legal right, and my family is safe.

Do you also want to call the courageous LA Koreans who protected their communities from violence and predation "losers" too, just because they had the audacity to use lethal force? You seriously need to redefine victory, because you currently clearly don't understand it.

Yes, a bloodless victory without need of violence is much preferable, but keeping my family safe is victory, whatever means are used to effect that. Walls, fences, strategic shrubbery, lights, alarms, community watches, and even well-trained dogs can be defeated, but if you think the mere presence of evil means you have lost, I submit that you've already lost, right now. I have lost when I lose consciousness and my family is hurt. You have to own a commitment to keep fighting until you cannot move. That is nothing like looking for conflict, just the knowledge of what needs doing once conflict is joined.
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My point was that potential intruders need to be stopped (or deterred) long before they are "inside the wire." Accordingly, the bulk of our preparedness should be directed at this sort of prevention, rather than fantasies about what tools to use for shootouts in the bedroom.
 
Varminterror said:
My point is that folks playing cowboy by insisting on outmoded firearms in their defensive strategy in their suburban homes aren’t doing themselves any favors. Real cowboys today are using what they can afford and what meets the demands.

Buy a levergun, or a single action revolver, or a coach gun in a fit of whimsy if you like, but these are not good choices for home defense - especially if the interest is just to play cowboy…
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There seems to be a very fudd mindset as of late that a lever gun, etc will avoid you the ire of a progressive DA. A progressive DA is going to bleep you out even if you shot an intruder with a 15th-16th century arquebus.
 
arsterling180 said:
There seems to be a very fudd mindset as of late that a lever gun, etc will avoid you the ire of a progressive DA.
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I have heard this type of thing said over the years. Having no personal experience in the matter, I can't say for sure if such a concern is valid. Though not by design, the type of firearms I generally have available for my defensive use are the same as used by peace officers. One of them is called a shield, made by one of the oldest names in American firearms manufacturing. S&W. Even the name makes it sound like its only purpose is to keep someone safe. Others that I have standing by are mostly the same as the ones overwhelmingly used by public servants specializing in law enforcement. They are marketed as safe action pistols.
 
Lever guns have been used successfully for a lot of years and pretty good at putting holes in people sized objects.
Are they better than an AR? I dunno.
Unless you are being attacked by a busload of bad guys, you can defend your home with whatever you have.
Not everybody is interested in ARs, and not everybody is interested in lever guns.
I wouldn't want to get shot with any of them.
To answer the OP, at this point, having recently got a new lever gun in .45LC, I'd choose that.
If I had just bought a SxS, I'd pick that.
None of them are a bad choice.
Fun question though. :D
 
My current HD is covered with a 9mm pistol and a 12ga pump shotgun. However, given a choice of, say, 10 rounds of .40 or larger ammos (think .41, .44, .45...) or just 2 rounds of 12ga (coach shotgun, etc...) I'd take the lever-action everyday, and twice on Sunday.

Thinking 'cowboy' makes me think 'wide open range,' where a shotgun would put you at a distinct disadvantage. Even in a closer setting, the Derringer of shotguns (that is... 2 rounds...) still wouldn't be my first pick.
 
Home defense is close range. The shotgun doesn't have the distance to to open up into a pattern in a normal sized dwelling so you are using a two shot fire arm that makes very large holes with the coach gun plus cocking those hammers makes it slower to get into use versus a a rifle that makes smaller holes but more of them and slightly quicker. Cowboys guns were fine when that was all there was for good and bad to use. Nostalgia is great and I am a big fan of cowboy guns but there are better options now when your life is involved. Move into the modern world for self defense. Just got to have a shotgun. Get one of the short barreled semi-autos or pumps that has a magazine for more shots. The standard answer seems to be a 12 guage but the 20 is lighter, easier to handle and the bad guy will never know the difference at home distances. Pray that you never have a need for anything but be prepared.

This is just my opinion which I have never had reason to put to use and you know what they say about opinions.
 
I also think there are better choices than either. In my experience, the imaginary scenario never happens the way you imagine it. Some folks freeze, some panic and shoot blindly. There are tales of folks a few feet apart emptying their guns and neither hit anything.
So, practice is the most important thing. Second, home invasions are rare but do happen. It could be an individual or a group of criminals. I would like a shotgun but limiting yourself to two rounds is risky, especially as a warning shot may be needed. That leaves a lever gun. Since you specify pistol caliber 357 is good, 44 Mag is better. Not my choice but better than screaming help and throwing pillows.
As far as cowboys, my friends that own a ranch have horses but prefer using ATV's for ranch work and only own modern arms as far as I know, but normally don't carry guns. When I was a kid I herded cattle and it never occurred to me to carry a gun. My truck gun wa a semi-auto pistol.
 
First, not meaning to offend, but home security trumps selecting a specific era of history for arms selection.

Shotguns are usually the top choice for home defense. This because you can select the size of your shot -- buckshot or birdshot. How much penetration is appropriate? Buckshot goes right through home interior walls. Birdshot will also, but the smaller pellets will have dumped a bunch of their energy passing through the wall. If you wish a shorter shotgun, a gunsmith can shorten the barrel and stay within the legal limit of necessary barrel length (sawed-off shotgun = federal offense). Another thing is that a double barrel gives you a grand total of two shots before having to reload.

On the topic of nostalgia, but keeping in mind the topic of having more than two shots available:

upload_2022-10-11_12-46-10.png

As to the topic of lever rifles, I once owned a Winchester Trapper .357 which had a 16 1/2" barrel. It was very compact and swingable (if such a word exists). I loved it (passed that one on to a younger generation). Its length did not impede my movement through the house. That said, a .357 round, especially out of a carbine barrel, will penetrate home walls for fun and relaxation. If you live out in the middle of nowhere by yourself or plan on a defense wherein you know EXACTLY where family members are, then the over-penetration may not be a worry to you. Maybe you WANT to shoot through a wall to nuke an armed intruder on the other side of it (something you don't see in the movies/TV very often). In interior combat situations, soldiers may need to shoot through walls, ceilings (enemy is on above floor), floors (enemy is on floor below), ... who knows what. For home defense however, again, over-penetration can get family and friendlies injured or killed -- scary.

Let me warn you of issues with Rossi levers. Before buying one, get online and read about getting around the issues these rifles possess. Same with some of the reproductions coming out of Italy. I've owned a Rossi and had to work on it. No time for details in this reply.
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If this was say, 150 years ago out West on the lone prairie, for Homestead Defense, I would probably go with a lever action over a double barrel shotgun.

Nowadays I wouldn't feel all that "under-gunned" if all I had was my Rossi Model 92 Carbine in .45 Colt. Throw in a single action wheel gun chambered for the same cartridge and I would be all set for a "Wild West" shootout to begin!
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If I was selecting a shotgun, I would go for a lighweight 20 gauge, with as short of a barrel as is legal. I have an Ithaca 37 like this, and really the light weight makes it feel better as a handling firearm, much faster, than say a lever gun, Winchester 94 for example. Faster to aim and point and quickly shoot 2 or 3 rounds. 20 Gauge still packs way more nrg than .357, so - why not consider the middle ground. I have a few 20 gauge shotguns, just find them more fun to shoot than a 12. I'm pretty good with that Ithaca and would use it over a PCC in a home defense scenario. That being said, If I had a lever gun in .357 and I was really good with it, using it for home defense would give me absolutely no pause and I would not second guess it. Confidence is king. Not too much confidence, just practiced confidence that you have some real ability and skill with whatever you are holding, makes more of a difference IMHO, than whatever it is you have in your hands.
 
35 Whelen said:
Fine, but the OP didn't ask the opinion of self-appointed experts on the subject on AR vs. a lever action or SxS shotgun. If that's what you want to discuss, then start your own thread on the subject.

35W
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Well, I guess the original post was that, but Im curious if it was based in reality or just “gee whiz, let’s ask this question and see what we get”…

The real question was “should I use an antiquated style gun with only two rounds that is slow to reload and has limited effective range or should I go with a little more modern gun that holds more than two rounds that shoots a lot further?”

If this is all the OP has, well, that’s fine. But the reality is neither are optimal should the situation require any sort of extended engagement (beyond say 30 seconds).

So defending the original question is fine, but the original question doesn’t identify optimal solutions.
 
I have a Rossi 12 guage hammered double barrel I keep loaded. You can keep two in the chambers without having the gun cocked when sitting there. Plus it's the best POI vs POA shotgun I have. But I also have full size CZ75B single action only on me.
 
Bird shot or skeet shot at close range is not to be sneered at. Likewise at close range a .38 or 44 Special has extra velocity out of a 16-20" barrel, the extra weight of a carbine dampens recoil.
 
Old Hobo said:
Shotguns are usually the top choice for home defense.
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Not by experts.

This because you can select the size of your shot -- buckshot or birdshot.
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No, it was because they were cheap and available. Shotguns are only the "best" choice for people who shoot enough shotgun sports, that they're much faster with a shotgun than anything.

A modern carbine is much easier to learn to shoot well, hits decisively, and can easily address multiple targets in much less time than shotgun shooters can. And, it's more versatile, being able to work just as well at 5 yards as 50 or 100. The big difference was, until fairly recently, a decent shotgun was much cheaper than a decent modern carbine. It's been proven, ad nauseam, that shotgun rounds capable of stopping a threat also go through a lot of structural material, with the sole exception of number four buckshot. There are several lightweight expanding 5.56 mm rounds that penetrate even less structural material then number four buck, while still hitting decisively.

John
 
Buzznrose said:
Well, I guess the original post was that, but Im curious if it was based in reality or just “gee whiz, let’s ask this question and see what we get”…

The real question was “should I use an antiquated style gun with only two rounds that is slow to reload and has limited effective range or should I go with a little more modern gun that holds more than two rounds that shoots a lot further?”

If this is all the OP has, well, that’s fine. But the reality is neither are optimal should the situation require any sort of extended engagement (beyond say 30 seconds).

So defending the original question is fine, but the original question doesn’t identify optimal solutions.
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Lots of gun questions and choices are based in fantasy or nostalgia and may not be the most rational choice. Fewer of us would buy guns if we didn't have romantic notions, myself included. Imagined scenarios along with SHTF is long on fantasy and short on realistic analysis in my opinion. Chances of it really mattering in real life are so small I don't think it matters. Even if the OP's home is invaded by multiple perps, chances are a double barrel shotgun would send them running on sight. I still would choose something else though. As a veteran I prefer more firepower and something more versatile and reliable just in case.
 
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