Creating new gun owners out of many anti-Gun folks?

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That too is a great point. I love the self reliance aspect of it. Guns allow us to protect our families and put food on the table without being dependent on society

Which has increasingly become less individualistic, and moves steadily along towards collectivism. The Founding Fathers made it clear that there needs to be a clear boundary between the rights of the individual and the needs of society as a whole.

I am a fan of Ayn Rand, but this is where she needed to 'check her premise' as she was so fond of saying. While she rightly decried the slide towards socialism she saw coming, her insistence on individualism went a little too far the other way; The Founding Fathers believed in social contract for a reason; not setting some standards for interaction with others leads to anarchy, and nature abhors a vacuum. Someone will step in and take control, and claim it is for the good of all.

The Founding Fathers also realized the not every leader can be a Cinicinnatus or George Washington, and willfully, cheerfully give up the power given to them by the group that placed them in power. For every Cincinnatus in history, there are many Lucius Cornelius Sullas. But even they were merely human, whereas the march of collectivism is evil manifesting itself clad in the sheepskin of 'concern for all'.

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule

H. L. Mencken
 
Very few people are truly anti-gun. The vast majority are pretty neutral even though they may not own guns themselves. You're not going to convert someone who is anti-gun. But many of the others are figuring out that owning a gun isn't a bad idea.

Mom, after being shown pro - gun and anti - gun arguments.

"Have you made enough money to at least put your son part way through college?"

More than enough said.

Most people really don't care.
 
Could this be a positive that the situation is causing new gun owners from many people that used to be anti-gun?
Obviously it could, and on average almost certainly is.

In every case, no. There's a small number of true believer socialists (not the useful idiots, but the real Marxists) who are armed, and are roughly equivalent to Hitler's Brown Shirts or Mao's Red Guard.

None the less, a broadly armed society is always a Good Thing vs a concentration of arms in the hands of a few.
 
Don't forget also that the antigunners are a vocal minority -- and a small minority at that. Gun owners tend to be very quiet, often not even acknowledging that they own guns. (This can be for security reasons, or because of social opprobrium.) This imbalance skews public perception. But gun owners, having a vested interest in their guns, are much more enthusiastic voters than the sometimes lukewarm antigunners. Smart politicians know this, which is why gun control never gets much traction at the national level. Both sides use it mainly for fundraising.

I'm convinced that the GOP upset victory in Virginia this year was partly due to the Dems' efforts last year to pass an assault weapon ban (an attempt which ultimately failed). In retrospect, that was clearly too far for Virginia. But it scared the wits out of people.
 
Which has increasingly become less individualistic, and moves steadily along towards collectivism. The Founding Fathers made it clear that there needs to be a clear boundary between the rights of the individual and the needs of society as a whole.

I am a fan of Ayn Rand, but this is where she needed to 'check her premise' as she was so fond of saying. While she rightly decried the slide towards socialism she saw coming, her insistence on individualism went a little too far the other way; The Founding Fathers believed in social contract for a reason; not setting some standards for interaction with others leads to anarchy, and nature abhors a vacuum. Someone will step in and take control, and claim it is for the good of all.

The Founding Fathers also realized the not every leader can be a Cinicinnatus or George Washington, and willfully, cheerfully give up the power given to them by the group that placed them in power. For every Cincinnatus in history, there are many Lucius Cornelius Sullas. But even they were merely human, whereas the march of collectivism is evil manifesting itself clad in the sheepskin of 'concern for all'.



H. L. Mencken
Surely sir you are the most well read poster on this site. I applaud how you fully and eloquently made the case for America as founded with our God given rights as the center piece of it all
 
Very few people are truly anti-gun. The vast majority are pretty neutral even though they may not own guns themselves. You're not going to convert someone who is anti-gun. But many of the others are figuring out that owning a gun isn't a bad idea.

This is a good point. Many people who vote in anti-gun politicians may not give a rat's ass about their stance on guns, but they vote for their stance on X other views, but we then tend to brand them anti-gun. I've voted for politicians that I don't agree with their stance on all views, but the ones that are most important to me, they must support. I'm sure I fall into the category of anti-(pick the political topic) because of who I voted for, even if I just really don't find it very important personally.
 
The phrase gun control has little to do with the first word and a lot to do with the second. Most who would be called anti are just believing what the media is pushing by focussing on the very un common instances of semi auto rifles with 30 rnd magazines being used in senseless mass killings. Those who are truly anti gun are wealthy powerful elites who want us riff raff un able to resist their big plans to do real transformative "improvement" to our society. Sadly so many of these new gun owners are panic buyer's who have the mentality of "oh well as long as I'm safe". These folks will not vote for those who want to protect the 2nd but rather whom ever promises them "free" stuff and most importantly "safety" turning a blind eye to everything else. On a lighter note right now the pandemic has made gun control old news for now it seems. I'm sure it will re surface especially if they can find away to convince the herd that it is in some way related to keeping them safe from covid. It's always something. When I was a kid it was terrorists, then it was lack of health insurance, then they brought gun control back out, then Trump threw a wrench in the gears and became the boogy man only to be replaced by the pandemic.
 
Could this be a positive that the situation is causing new gun owners from many people that used to be anti-gun?

I am happy that people are thinking about and for themselves. Sad that they elected officials that screwed things up so bad for them, that they had to fend for themselves. Even more empathy for the people that knew better and couldn’t do anything except watch the train wreck happen.
 
Waiting breathlessly for the latest and greatest “celebrity gun trainers”.

They’ll be celebrity priced, tactically over dressed, over coifed and cater to the rich and famous. VIPs and movie folk will gush about how great they are and they’ll be demonstrating their abilities on the late night TV circuit.

We’ve seen celebrity chefs, celebrity hair stylists, etc., can celebrity gun trainers be far behind?
 
Gun ownership is not a "sport." And guns are not "tools."
I am the weapon, my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some those descriptors are reversed.
Gun ownership is certainly not a sport, it is a right and a responsibility. But guns provide the means for much sport, upon proper instruction. On the other hand, guns certainly ARE tools. And we certainly scream just that, every time another gun is blamed for a mass-shooting, and new anti-gun laws are being floated.
 
This is a good point. Many people who vote in anti-gun politicians may not give a rat's ass about their stance on guns, but they vote for their stance on X other views, but we then tend to brand them anti-gun. I've voted for politicians that I don't agree with their stance on all views, but the ones that are most important to me, they must support. I'm sure I fall into the category of anti-(pick the political topic) because of who I voted for, even if I just really don't find it very important personally.

A kid from church, who's parents are English professors at the local university, wanted to shoot and hunt. So, with his mom's permission and support, he started shooting and hunting with me. She realized that if she was going to share interests with him, they would be his interests. She now shoots, hunts and owns a rifle. But her voting interests remain those of a Democrat party supporter, and the interests they claim to support, regardless of her, or the party's, stance on gun control.
 
On the other hand, guns certainly ARE tools. And we certainly scream just that, every time another gun is blamed for a mass-shooting, and new anti-gun laws are being floated.
My point was that guns are much more than mere tools. In the minds of many people, guns are iconic, magical talismans. Merely having a gun makes you able to protect yourself (regardless of whether you actually know how to use it). But beyond that, being armed assures personal dignity and self-determination, things that are otherwise lacking in a lot of people's lives.

I suspect that this thinking applies to many of the new owners. If they sock their new gun away in a drawer, its purpose is already served. That's where their membership in the "gun culture" begins and ends.

And, BTW, you'll never find such people on gun forums such as this one.
 
Waiting breathlessly for the latest and greatest “celebrity gun trainers”.

They’ll be celebrity priced, tactically over dressed, over coifed and cater to the rich and famous. VIPs and movie folk will gush about how great they are and they’ll be demonstrating their abilities on the late night TV circuit.

We’ve seen celebrity chefs, celebrity hair stylists, etc., can celebrity gun trainers be far behind?
For sure. They can probably get that one former Navy SEAL, as soon as he's done writing his next book.

Probably get their own show eventually, in the time slot right before the show where they build up-armored Bentleys and Maseratis.

Whatever comes of this recent surge in first time gun ownership, I truly don't care if they get any defensive or tactical training. I do, however, very sincerely hope they all get safety training. We have zero need for more dummies with guns that have no comprehension of safe operation.

Any good they could have possibly done can be quickly undone by a lack of safety.
 
The idea that guns are tools is naive psychologically as it ignores their core purpose as a weapon and why we have a constitutional right to possess them. A hammer could be a weapon but if you study concept formation, it's core characteristic is as an implement for doing things that are not the use of force.

This is not true for guns. Their core is for weaponry and the sports usages are derivatives of practice for their weapons use, even if the technical gun has moved away from being a useful weapon (like a Biathlon gun). There are a few very rare guns as tools - some specialized large gauge things used to take scale out of blast furnaces. But they are trivial.

It is a debated issue that firearms prime aggression and move those so motivated to aggress to actually take action. The evidence is mixed and not strong. It is similar to the video game debate. As an aside, that's why the NRA's arguments that it wasn't guns but video games was stupid as the same research arguing that games prime aggression indicated that guns in similar experimental situations prime aggression.

Big caveat!! In the field, there is strong debate that the priming aggression effect is limited and not of real consequence. Meaning a good person isn't compelled by either to become violent. Do they enhance a violent person to act violently - quite the debate and this is subtle point.

Calling guns tools opens you to bans and controls as tools have no BOR protections and the argument looks disingenuous. We have the right for guns for SD and defense against tyranny primarily. Not to punch holes in paper or Bambi. These applications could be accomplished (as in other countries) by having guns kept at clubs and checked out for hunts or target shoots. In fact, Rachel Maddow is a gun enthusiast. Took her dates to the range. Shoots an AR and 1911 AND says the guns should be kept at the club.

About banning types of guns - 5 is enough drives me crazy WHEN that statement claims that those who carry more are nuts, Rambos, etc. Carrying a J for convenience is a different issue. However, the staunch conservative who denounced ARs is not hard to find. Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden - all have denounced them and/or supported AWBs. That looks 50-50 to me. Bob Dole (who just passed and a hero) was not a black rifle fan.

If a new population segment buys guns - that is all for the good. Maybe they aren't members of your political club on other issues but that is irrelevant.
 
Could this be a positive that the situation is causing new gun owners from many people that used to be anti-gun?

First, it's rhetorical. Second, you answered your own question.

Could it be positive? Of course, it could be.

But keep in mind that liberals are not right in the head to begin with. A liberal thrust into combat instinctively trends toward a tool of self defense. That's human nature.

But it's their inherent stupidity that got them there in the first place. That doesn't change simply because the Huns are at the Door.

My uncle and I have one thing in common, viz. we both own guns. But he continues to vote for the open borders, wealth redistribution socialists. His defense is that they're for the "working man."

You can't argue with stupidity like that. He ignores his candidate's anti gun insanity, regardless.

The most promising outcome of OP's scenario is that all candidates of all parties might just take notice of the surge in gun sales and ownership, and instinctively start pimping themselves to that perceived demographic.

In that case, yes, it could be a positive.
 
If we want to win people over and create a new generation of gun owners, doing so by stoking the flames of fear is a sub-optimal plan. A handful of folks running out to impulsively buy a gun because they're worried about being victims of random crimes isn't a healthy start nor a sustainable strategy.
I'm not seeing much stoking of the flames of fear. Instead, I'm seeing people highlighting the reality that crime is being decriminalized, and that the protection, the maintenance of law and order, that a lot of people thought they could count on from the police is becoming less and less reliable. And dramatically so in some areas.

These new gun owners who are waking up to the reality that things can go sideways in a hurry, and you can't always count on someone else to protect you ARE helpful to the cause, even if they aren't special forces level operators like many old line gun owners seem to think they ought to be in order to be allowed to own their first gun.

If the new generation of gun owners doesn't have the same views and motivations as some of the rest of us, so be it. If they don't train themselves to special forces levels, so be it. Odds are probably 99.99% that they'll never be forced to use their new gun anyway. But if they are gun owners they are less likely to support the efforts to take away everyone's guns or otherwise make it such that citizens can't protect themselves.

In a more perfect scenario I would like to "create a new generation of gun owners," all of them knowledgeable and trained. But the perfect is the enemy of the good, and the knowledgeable and trained part is secondary and not very important. What is important, is maintaining the right for those who do want to be gun owners and have the ability to protect themselves and their families if the unfortunate need arises.

The main thing that keeps some thugs - perhaps the type that will walk up to a 70 year old woman and knock her out on the street, or commit a strong-arm robbery - from rampaging through any house they want with a baseball bat or a weapon of their own is the background knowledge that they just MIGHT be met inside the door with a blast of buckshot to the chest or several rounds of 9mm. The greater the percentage of homes and businesses that represent that threat to the potential criminal intruder, the stronger the national deterrent. The thugs need to know that more Americans are arming themselves.

Even the anti-gunner liberal leftists benefit from this deterrent and are kept safer by the fact that there are millions of gun owners seeded among the population, but they are too ignorant or idealistic to recognize the fact and the benefit to themselves and their families. The gun is civilization. Many of those with the mental illness known as liberalism don't recognize it.
 
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The idea that guns are tools is naive psychologically as it ignores their core purpose as a weapon and why we have a constitutional right to possess them. A hammer could be a weapon but if you study concept formation, it's core characteristic is as an implement for doing things that are not the use of force.

This is not true for guns. Their core is for weaponry and the sports usages are derivatives of practice for their weapons use, even if the technical gun has moved away from being a useful weapon (like a Biathlon gun). There are a few very rare guns as tools - some specialized large gauge things used to take scale out of blast furnaces. But they are trivial.

It is a debated issue that firearms prime aggression and move those so motivated to aggress to actually take action. The evidence is mixed and not strong. It is similar to the video game debate. As an aside, that's why the NRA's arguments that it wasn't guns but video games was stupid as the same research arguing that games prime aggression indicated that guns in similar experimental situations prime aggression.

Big caveat!! In the field, there is strong debate that the priming aggression effect is limited and not of real consequence. Meaning a good person isn't compelled by either to become violent. Do they enhance a violent person to act violently - quite the debate and this is subtle point.

Calling guns tools opens you to bans and controls as tools have no BOR protections and the argument looks disingenuous. We have the right for guns for SD and defense against tyranny primarily. Not to punch holes in paper or Bambi. These applications could be accomplished (as in other countries) by having guns kept at clubs and checked out for hunts or target shoots. In fact, Rachel Maddow is a gun enthusiast. Took her dates to the range. Shoots an AR and 1911 AND says the guns should be kept at the club.

About banning types of guns - 5 is enough drives me crazy WHEN that statement claims that those who carry more are nuts, Rambos, etc. Carrying a J for convenience is a different issue. However, the staunch conservative who denounced ARs is not hard to find. Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden - all have denounced them and/or supported AWBs. That looks 50-50 to me. Bob Dole (who just passed and a hero) was not a black rifle fan.

If a new population segment buys guns - that is all for the good. Maybe they aren't members of your political club on other issues but that is irrelevant.



OK- Say guns are tools for preventing tyranny, plain and simple. Not their original intent, (warfare, first documented use, Battle of Crécy, 1346) nor their original use on this continent. (Dual use-self defense, and acquiring food.) The preventing Tyranny aspect didn't come about until Tyranny was imposed upon a sleepy little backwater colony of the British Empire peopled by those who had been largely ignored, except for trade, by the Crown, until they were taxed at rates we would love to only be taxed at. They also demanded to have MP's from the colonies. It didn't help that the monarch was insane, his son not much more sane, and his advisers all on the take.

Would revising the statement "The mind is the weapon, everything else is just tools", a statement designed to create thought about potential uses of everyday items (shovels, screwdrivers, vehicles, etc.) as ad hoc weapons when either caught without a weapon, (not all of us step out of the shower with an AR-15 and a smile) or the weapon we have ceases to function, (so as to not create dependence only on a mechanical device that can fail) be to your satisfaction?

It should not, because despite the hubbub over whether guns are "tools" or not, to be thought of as merely another tool on the belt, like some LEO's do, (yes, we know the THR members that are or were LEO's don't match that description, but you all know or knew some who do.) like their radio, or cuffs, the semantic dancing around the word tool is pointless. When Snap-On starts making firearms, maybe I'll consider them as tools in that sense.

If they are only 'tools' for preventing Tyranny. wouldn't the logical thing to do be stockpiling AR's and Artillery at the individual, Town and State level, some purchased by lottery profits, some donated by wealthy individuals, as the Colonists did with Charleville and Brown Bess muskets (the AR's of their time) and cannon, powder and shot?

If guns are only tools for hunting, AR's are quite useable for that also, despite some grumpy old men who believe that a hunting rifle, pistol, or shotgun can only have a walnut stock and blued steel and that some in Govt. will not come for their O/U Trap/Sporting Clays/Skeet gun given the chance.
(BTW, I love blued, wood stocked guns, and shoot Trap, and run into these guys far too often.)

As for what causes violence in people- my belief is that the purposeful deconstruction of the education system by 'progressives' over the last at least 50 years, and the teaching of using emotions for decision making by the education system (instead of logic and or analysis), coupled with the indoctrination into Socialism that the education system enforces (all the way up through the PhD level) has damaged this nation far more than video games or the ownership of firearms ever has. Toss in the abolishment of mental health facilities and their capability of oversight of patient compliance on maintaining medication, and it's a wonder the whole USA doesn't resemble Manhattan in Escape From New York.
 
OK- Say guns are tools for preventing tyranny, plain and simple.
The wide dispersal of guns among the civilian population is a deterrent against tyranny, just as the presence of nuclear weapons is a deterrent against international aggression. If the point ever comes when either guns or nukes are actually used for these purposes, the results would be unthinkable. So this "prevention of tyranny" argument is theoretical only.

The same idea applies to a "militia" as a hedge against tyranny. As long as the militia is unorganized, it is a civic deterrent. But as soon as a group of civilians (without state sanction) attempts to organize a militia, it becomes an unprotected partisan force that is subject to prosecution (see Presser v. Illinois).

Note that a prospective "tyranny" can come from either the Left or the Right. It seems to me that a lot of the new gun owners are leftists, that are arming up in fear of a coup from the Right. This is something new. Up to now, it was the rightists who were armed in fear of the Left.
 
Most anti-gunners I have met are just brain washed by the left to the point they don’t want anything to do with guns. They don’t know enough about gun to tell the left they are lying.
I think my new neighbors are anti gun because every time I’m loading my guns on the truck for a trip to the range, they grab the kids & run inside. LOL
 
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I'm not seeing much stoking of the flames of fear. Instead, I'm seeing people highlighting the reality that crime is being decriminalized, and that the protection, the maintenance of law and order, that a lot of people thought they could count on from the police is becoming less and less reliable. And dramatically so in some areas

Is that last part really true though?
I'm not arguing against the general point that there are people who buy guns with self-preservation in mind because it's probably the leading motivation for doing so, and always has been. I'm saying that the article the OP posted should be taken with a grain of salt for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that *one* person is quoted as being a self-described former anti-gunner. Who is Debbie Mizrahie? I have no clue nor does it matter. But we're drawing some pretty broad conclusions from her off the cuff statement in a media piece. One person in BH decided to buy a gun and all the sudden the assumptions begin rolling in; These are 'liberal elites', they vote for anti-gun policy but have had a change of heart, they learned some secret we already knew, they're this, they're that, etc., etc.... We can glean all that from one person's statement? As I said before, BH is a tiny enclave in a county with over 10M people, in a state with nearly 40M total. And *one* person's actions don't really mean squat when assessing the larger group. Humans aren't nearly as binary as we want to pretend either. Most people reside in grey areas, not black or white.
 
Lots of closet gun owners out there, they need encouragement.

There are gun owners out there and then there are people who own guns. The distinction isn't trivial either. Plenty of people who own guns will never graduate to being gun owners, for a million different reasons.
 
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