Critique my first .30-06 reload...

[MacTech]

What am I doing right, what am I doing wrong, what would you reccomend...

I picked up a Lee Loader for .30-06, I love the little thing, gives the ammo a real "crafted with pride and love one round at a time" feel, plus, I couldn't reload '06 in my Pro 1000 and this was the cheapest way to get into reloading for the '06....

Anyway, a couple questions first...

I'm not exactly comfortable with the "hammer the case into the primer" method of seating the primer, seems like an accident waiting to happen, I was so concerned in fact, that the first time I tried the "hammer the case on" technique with the Loader, I used a fired primer, just to see how much force was neccesary, it wasn't that bad after all, still, I think I'm going to deprime the cases with the Loader, neck size the case, then use my Lee Auto Prime (the handheld tool) to seat the primers, and skip the "hammer it in" step

I went with the Lee Loader for a few reasons, mainly because of the price, but the threads I've read on the Loader have also pointed out that it puts together some darned good ammo, and the fact that it neck sizes only, thus making the brass last longer, and keeping the fire-formed cases perfect for the rifle that shot it are also benefits

I also liked the portability, simplicity and durability of the setup, I can reload anywhere, not tied down to my bench, it'll be fun to work up some loads at the range

There's no entry in my Lee reloading manual for Hodgdon powder, but there is an entry for IMR4831 (no SC though), so I used the IMR minimum load stats

the cartridge is loaded with 52.8 grains of IMR4831 under a Hornady 165Gr JSP bullet, according to my Lyman caliper, the OAL is 3.299, according to the Lee reloading manual, Min. OAL is 3.335, did I seat the bullet too far in? I can't see the cannelure like I can on a Federal Fusion 170Gn reduced recoil load (my comparison cartridge)

Do I need to pull the cartridge apart and start over? seating the bullet right to the cannelure? the rifle seems to chamber the round just fine, and the OAL does not change

comparing some of my commercial ammo OAL yields some interesting results;

MacTech Reloaded Round; 3.299
Federal Fusion 170Grn; 3.063
Winchester 180Grn; 3.150
Winchester Supreme Accubond 180Grn; 3.313

My reload is still shorter than the OAL of the Winchester Supreme 180, it feeds into the rifle just fine, but I can't see the cannelure, which is visible on the Winchester 180Grn (non-Accubond) and the Federal 170Grn, the Hornady 165Grn bullets do have a cannelure, it's just seated slightly behind the mouth of the case

So, how did I do on my first .30-06 reload?

 

[zxcvbob]

Not gonna hijack your thread, but I also just finished reloading my first rifle cartridges tonight (.30 Carbine doesn't count.) Been loading pistol cartridges for years but never got around to rifle.

.30-06, neck-sized only with Lee collet die, 12.5 grains of Red Dot, Federal primers, Berry's 150 grain plated .30-30 bullets. I don't remember what the OAL was. It took a lot longer than I expected; your Lee Loader might not be so bad

Your load looks just fine to me. 52.8 grains should give fairly mild (not sure if that what you were going for; they'll still have twice the energy as mine) but it also fills the cases pretty well so they ought to be consistent. Nice job.

 

[ants]

Congrats on the first cartridge! May there be many more.

Here's my idea:
You have the right attitude that you must stay within the published data for your load. It's true that different publications offer different loads, but pick one and be faithful to it. Good thinking.

In the future, endeavor to adjust your procedures so you stay faithfully within the published data. But this one isn't so bad.

Your load is the starting load listed in the Lee manual. Since you are only 36 thousandths of an inch shorter than the minimum oal, and you used the starting load, I do not believe that anything will blow up on you if you shoot that cartridge. However, it's the right time to start good habits, so why not keep that for a souvenir (your first cartidge!) and load the second one to correct length. Anything from 3.335 to 3.340 is probably a good range.

anthony

 

[MacTech]

Heh, I just did a quick calculation on how much my reloads cost per round and per 50 rounds

commercial ammo, 20 round boxes, generally cost $20-25, roughly $1 a round more or less...
my reloads cost $8.40 per 20 rounds, roughly .42¢ per round, one box of ammo and the Lee Loader will have paid for itself, heck, for what it cost me to buy one box of commercial ammo, I could reload 50 rounds

Dear Og I love reloading!

Now I can actually *afford* to shoot my .30-06

 

[lgbloader]

zxcvbob,

12.5 grains of Red Dot

so you discovered 'the load' ehh????

Have fun with it, Mate.

LGB

 

[faire bien de...!]

Since your only 0.036" deeper then the minimum, and your using the starting load, I'm sure you'll be quite fine shooting that round. If you have a press mounted bullet puller, you may be able to pull it out a hair if it really bothers you, but I wouldn't bother. I also noticed in the Lee Manual that the starting charge of H4895, 43 grains, will yeald about the same velocity with a 165 gr bullet and the IMR4831, 2607 fps. Thats around a 20% powder reduction, which cold mean more loads for you! Thats like saying, charge five - charge one free, charge five - charge one free. Of course, you may get totally differant results downrange with the H4895 as apposed to the IMR4831. (Like zxcvbob said, not sure what your going for) But, I just thought it was worth a mention since not only do we enjoy reloading, but also doing it for the least amout of money possible.

 

[MacTech]

Am I correct in thinking that IMR4831 (in the Lee manual) and Hodgdon 4381SC are the same powders? does that change the recipie?

I do have an impact hammer bullet puller, so I can break this round down and re-seat the bullet, maybe if I do it right, I can use the hammer to drive the bullet forward and then re-seat it to the proper length

I've been reloading for .45ACP for almost a year now with great results, but this is my first rifle cartridge reload

 

[USSR]

Am I correct in thinking that IMR4831 (in the Lee manual) and Hodgdon 4381SC are the same powders? does that change the recipie?

Nope, different powders. IMR4831 is faster than H4831SC. If your recipe is for IMR4831 and you have H4831SC powder, no problem, but not the other way around.

Don

 

[MacTech]

Your load is the starting load listed in the Lee manual. Since you are only 36 thousandths of an inch shorter than the minimum oal, and you used the starting load, I do not believe that anything will blow up on you if you shoot that cartridge. However, it's the right time to start good habits, so why not keep that for a souvenir (your first cartidge!) and load the second one to correct length. Anything from 3.335 to 3.340 is probably a good range.

Here are some mockup pics;
My 3.299 OAL:

3.335 OAL:

3.340 OAL:

Using the mockup pics, I can see how the 3.299 is a hair too deep, the heel of the bullet extends beyond the neck, wheras the two longer rounds the heel of the bullet stops at, or just before the bottom of the neck

time to grab the impact hammer, try to loosen the bullet and re-seat it

Bullet reseated to 3.335

putting the reseated round in the rifle, it was difficult to close the bolt that last few millimeters, when I opened the action and ejected the round, the bullet had been pushed in further, the new rifle-specific OAL is 3.215, and the bullet is seated right at the cannelure, loading the cartridge, loading the same round a second time drops the OAL to 3.212

Yes, I know you should only load a cartridge when you're ready to shoot, but I wanted to see what would happen with multiple load/eject cycles...

So, would I be better off setting the OAL to 3.215ish or thereabouts?

 

[ants]

You can ignore the cannelure if you wish. The bullet manufacturers don't know the OAL listed in your manual, so they place the cannelure in a spot they think is right. You can ignore it to get the right OAL. No big deal.

The bolt pushes a cartridge into the feed ramp so it can get kicked up into the chamber. When the bullet hits the ramp, the ramp can push the bullet back into the case under the right circumstances. This is called "bullet setback". It is usually avoided when the neck is properly sized (generally about .001" smaller than bullet diameter) so it gives 'neck tension' on the bullet. If your sizing die doesn't size the neck to get enough tension, a light crimp will help. My old (1969) Lee Loader will do a crimp, but be careful not to crimp too hard or it will crush the brass. If I recall, the instructions include a paragraph on crimping with the Lee Loader. Check it and see.

Just out of curiousity, what rifle? At 3.200+ the bullet probably is not hitting the lands yet. Generally that doesn't happen until the OAL is 3.350 or more. Your rifle may have a short freebore to the rifling, it's possible. But the fact that it did it the SECOND time tells us that the rifling is probaby not the problem. Most likely the setback is at the ramp.

 

[MacTech]

the rifle is a Savage 111 .30-06, the non-accutrigger package model in the black poly stock

I don't think it's the feed ramp, I fed the cartridge in and closed the bolt until I felt it stop against the base of the cartridge, then dropped the cartridge out, the OAL had not changed, still at 3.335, it's when the bolt is closed that the bullet is set back in the case

No, I didn't try crimping just yet, I'll try that and see if it makes a difference...

 

[mcdonl]

Hey, thats awesome! I have two of those buggers now....

I'm not exactly comfortable with the "hammer the case into the primer" method of seating the primer, seems like an accident waiting to happen, I was so concerned in fact, that the first time I tried the "hammer the case on" technique with the Loader

There were a few things I purchased to make it a LOT easier. One was a Lee Priming tool for $15... nice squeeze action to set the primer. I have had a few go off the old way and it is a little unsettling

Check this article out and it will mention a few other items to get. And don't worry, combined the rest of the items are less the the $20 loader. http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/51

I love mine because it allows me to shoot something a little "softer" out of my MN at the range.

Happy loading!

 

[MacTech]

I have the Auto-Prime as well, and I'll be using it to seat the primers in the '06 brass, even better, .30-06 brass and .45ACP brass use the same shellholder (#2) and large primers, so I don't even have to change the shellholder or the ram

I've broken down the LL process into a few more steps;

Step 1: deprime all cases using the LL deprime tool
Step 2: neck size all cases (hammer them into the die then knock them out with the priming rod)
Step 3: prime all cases with the Lee Auto-Prime
Step 4: measure and weigh the powder charge and drop it into the case with one of those pan-funnel thingies
step 5: place the shell in the die, drop the bullet in and seat
Step 6: crimp the bullet

I've eliminated the prime-in-the-die step, replacing it with the much safer Lee Auto Prime step, eliminated the dump-the-charge-through-the-die stage, instead, I dump the charge directly into the case

the die is used for depriming, neck-sizing and bullet seating, everything else is done off the press, more steps, yes, but safer

 

[zxcvbob]

Step 4: measure and weigh the powder charge and drop it into the case with one of those pan-funnel thingies

You have a scale? You can use it to calibrate a homemade dipper (9mm or .40SW or .45 case with a piece of copper wire soldered to it) and really speed things up over weighing each charge -- at least for the .45 ACP. For the .30-06 you might want to weigh each one and use a powder trickler to get each one just right, but even then a dipper that got you close would help.

(you trim the dipper until it holds the amount of powder you want)

 

[MacTech]

The dipper in this kit (3.4cc)throws around a 48.8-48.9 grain charge, a little light, so I use a RCBS trickler to get the charge up to the 52.8 grain charge

as far as the OAL goes, I tried to crimp the bullet using the opposite end of the die, per the instructions, but it doesn't seem to want to crimp, mainly because the lip of the case is not near the cannelure, which looks to be designed to allow crimping

I can actually tap the bullet back into the case with a rubber mallet,, heck, I can *push* the bullet back to the cannelure and a hair beyond... if I seat the bullet to the cannelure, the cartridge measures 3.229, and it would give me the ability to crimp the mouth of the case

this whole OAL thing is starting to piss me off

I think I figured it out (the loose bullet thingy)...

When I first pulled the round apart to readjust the OAL, I never bothered to re-neck size the brass, the brass was just wide enough to permit a loose-fitting bullet, once I re-neck-sized the brass, the problem went away, that would explain all the problems I have been having with bullet setback

note to self, when you pull apart a case, re-size it before reinserting the bullet

Yep, that's a solid seated bullet all right, I am unable to close the action in the gun at the 3.326 length, looks like I have to seat the bullet in further, time for some more experiments, I'll continue tomorrow evening and over the weekend

to sum up so far, the loose bullet issue was caused by me not resizing the brass after I pulled it apart, however, the rifle will not feed lengths of 3.335 and longer, it even has trouble with 3.326

 

[ants]

Yes, the cannelure's job is to accept a heavy crimp. But most bullets don't even have a cannelure. You can crimp successfully without cannelure.

As a beginner, I would encourage patience in learning how to use the equipment. This is not the right time to start ignoring published data, just because it seems easier to crimp at a different spot.

Often, when you crimp where there is no cannelure, it doesn't look 'crimped'. But you have successfully tightened the tension around the bullet.

As stated above, it all starts with successful sizing of the neck. Pull the bullet and powder, then go back to the sizing step and resize the neck again. Measure the inside diameter in comparison to the bullet diameter.

 

[jim147]

this whole OAL thing is starting to piss me off

You will soon find out there are three or four OAL's.

1. The one in whatever manual you are using.
2. The one that fits your magazine.
3. The one that fits your chamber.
4. The one your rifle likes best.

Number four may be one of the first three but don't count on it.

Always pick up a fresh piece of brass when setting things up. You don't have to worry about that whole neck tension thing.

jim

 

[jpwilly]

Next time just get bullets without a cannalure. Also you may want seat a bullet long in an unprimed empty piece of prepped brass. Load it and force the bolt closed on the Savage. Carefully eject and measure OAL...do this ten times with ten different bullets. Take the average of the 10 and now you know with that particular bullet how far from the lands you are seating the bullets. Start by seating .030 or .020" from lands.

 

[MacTech]

That makes sense, I may just do that, get a hard and fast OAL setting specific to this gun, I'd imagine having the OAL customized to this particular rifle will greatly increase accuracy, as commercial ammo has to fit a wide range of firearms, so it's OAL is set to a generic middleground setting, with handloads, each cartridge is custom-fit to the gun's breech and firing chamber

if I'm using a piece of unfired brass and a bullet to see what OAL to set, would it be a good idea to seat and unseat the bullet first, then reseat it, so it would be slightly loose in the case, so it can be pushed in to the correct OAL, kinda like my original issue above, only this time, keep the bullet slightly loose on purpose to find the correct OAL?

I don't particularly like the "jam it closed" technique, I'd be concerned that I'd damage the action, the bolt, or the breech if I used a tightly seated bullet.

so, speaking theoretically, if the OAL is 3.330 (just puling numbers out of the air), I should seat to 3.300 or 3.310?

 

[ants]

For this purpose, 'jamb it closed' doesn't hurt the rifle.

But the 'jamb it closed' method isn't always reliable.

If you jamb the bullet into the threads hard enough, it holds it there momentarily as you twist the case and withdraw the bolt backward. It pulls the bullet out slightly until it releases it, so you get an artificially long measurement.

Place a bullet in an unsized case (seated long) and push it into the chamber with a finger. Push hard. Then carefully close the bolt and lock the lugs. Insert a wooden dowel into the muzzle and gently touch the tip of the bullet. Mark the muzzle location on the dowel with a razor blade (you wanna be totally accurate). Then withdraw the case and bullet, close the bolt on the empty chamber and lock the lugs. Now place the dowel full depth to the face of the bolt and mark the muzzle location with the razor blade. The distance between the two marks is the longest OAL your chamber can handle. You want to seat your bullet about 0.020" shorter for the sake of safety.

Please note: Because different bullets have different profiles, do this with every new bullet you buy so you get a reliable dimension for each bullet profile. Keep a log of it for future reference.

 

[MacTech]

Here are the measurements using the above procedure;

I loaded a bullet into an empty, unprimed case, loaded long, closed and locked the action, marked a dowel with the loaded position, then ejected the round, closed the bolt, and marked the dowel with the empty position

distance between the empty and loaded marks on the dowel is 3.222

test bullet (Hornady 165Gr JSP) seated long also sizes down to 3.222 when the bolt is closed and then extracted from the action

so, logically, cartridges for this rifle should be sized to 3.202 or 3.200

however, commercial ammo (Winchester Supreme 180 GR AccuBond) measures 3.325, yet seats without any resistance, my reloads show resistance at 3.254 and above, logic would dictate that if the rifle is capable of chambering a cartridge with an OAL of 3.325, it should be able to handle a shorter OAL with no resistance

hmm, crazy thought, when measuring the Winchester Supremes, do you measure the polymer tip of the AccuBond bullet, or do you measure the OAL where the tip of the actual bullet ends? measuring an AccuBond cartridge at the end of the actual bullet, ignoring the polymer tip, gives an OAL of 3.157....

Could it be that I was measuring the Supremes incorrectly?

here's the commercial ammo I have for comparison...
Federal Fusion 170Grn; 2.966
Winchester 180Grn; 3.150
Winchester Supreme Accubond 180Grn; 3.325 (polymer tip included)
Winchester Supreme Accubond 180Grn; 3.157 (polymer tip excluded)

 

[ants]

The curve of the bullet from the nose to the shoulder is called the 'ogive'. Each type of bullet has a different curve. It is this curve that engages the lands of the rifling. Some bullets may chamber without resistance at 3.400 if they are long and narrow, so the ogive curve misses the lands completely. Some bullets may not chamber at 3.200 if the ogive curve is too wide and fat.

That's why it is important to be aware of the characteristics of every bullet you use.

So what do you do when you have data for a bullet listing an OAL of 3.330 and your rifle can't take it? Make a collection of manuals and manufacturer's online data (trust a manufacturer, but don't trust some guy's post or web site, he may have just blown up his rifle yesterday but he certainly won't tell you that). Each data table is tested at a different OAL. You'll find one that matches your bullet.

 

[MacTech]

That makes sense, so with my reloads using the Hornady 165Gr bullets, based on the information above (chamber OAL of 3.222) the correct OAL to set my reloads to would be 3.202 or 3.200, right?

as far as the different powders go, the Speer(Sierra?) manual at my local gunshop recommends a starting load of 60 grains for a 165Gr bullet, and a 63Gr compressed charge is the Never Exceed load

I'm thinking I should just break down the five rounds I've loaded with 52.8 grains of H4831SC, because H4831 is not listed in my Lee manual, and that 52.8 grain load is for IMR4831, call me paranoid if you must, but I'd rather err on the side of caution

at the very least, I'm going to pick up a pound of Reloder19 (which is specified in the Lee reloading manual, a 58.4 grain charge) and use that instead

since powder is not returnable, and there are no H4831SC recipes in the Lee manual, I guess I'll hold on to the powder, get a different reloading manual and try a different recipe with this powder, use the Reloder19 for Lee recipes

It seems to me that Lee recipes are deliberately conservative, they're always a few grains below other loads

Just for fun, I dispensed a 60 grain charge of H4831SC and put it in an empty primed shell, even at 60 grains, it looks like the charge would be compressed, there was no space between the powder and where the bullet would seat

According to my Lee manual, the most common powders I see listed, the ones that can handle the widest range of bullet weights are Reloder19 and Varget

 

[LRaccuracy]

Looks like you have plenty of good help from experienced people so I will not put in my 2 cents worth.

However I will say how things have changed over the years. I remember when I started reloading. My 30-06 rounds may have cost 5 cents to put together. Now when you look at a box of .308 or 30-06 commercially boxed ammo for $20 + it makes you shutter.

 

[MacTech]

Many thanks for the help and patience, everyone, it's a learning process, much more challenging than reloading for my .45ACP

I've been poking around Hodgdon's website, and did a search for compatible powder loads for H4831, the closest match to my bullets is the following;

175 GR. SIE HPBT 3.300 OAL 57.0Gr

thing is, it's specifying a 175 grain Sierra hollowpoint boat tail bullet, not a 165 grain Hornady flat tail soft point

there's another load I could try;
190 grain Hornady BTSP, 3.220 OAL, 57.0Gr

so, in order to use the H4831, I'll load up a heavier bullet

I also picked up a pound of Reloder19, which does have a listing in my Lee manual;
165Gr jacketed bullet, 58.4Gr start, 62.0Gr never exceed

I may also try the H4895 as well....

So, as far as the OAL issue goes, the chamber OAL inside the rifle is 3.222, so for safety purposes, I should set the cartridge OAL to 3.202 or 3.200?

as far as the recipie I wrote down from the store's manual, it specifies 60 grains of H4831, but when I load a 60 grain charge, it fills the cartridge all the way up to the base of the neck, if I seat a bullet, it looks like it would compress the powder charge, compressed charges seem rather dangerous to me, especially for a novice reloader