Seating on cannelure w/out crimp

[utbrowningman]

New to realoading and my .30-06 is my first and will be be used in a Savage bolt. Loading a few 150 gr. remington bullets in unprimed and empty cases just to get a feel for the seating die and the overall process. I noticed when the mouth sat on the cannelure, the bullet was loose and moved in and out. Measured the bullet at and before the cannelure and there was a difference. I'd prefer not to crimp (the bullets I bought for my first reloads just happened to have the cannelure) and the consensus seems to be no need. My questions are 1) is it typical that the width at the cannelure is less, and 2) if not crimping then it's okay to seat the bullet before the cannelure so long as OAL is still under the maximum.

 

[dmazur]

Welcome to reloading!

The process generally consists of

1. Resize / deprime (and reprime, unless you're using a hand priming tool)
2. Powder charge
3. Bullet seating

The die used for step 1 usually has an expander ball, which expands the case neck to the correct diameter for tension on the bullet, after the die has deliberately undersized it. This is necessary to handle variations in brass thickness at the neck. The case has to be the correct size to grip the bullet (neck ID). It can be a little smaller than the chamber (neck OD).

Is it possible that you took some once-fired brass and jumped ahead to the bullet seating step? If so, the neck has not been resized.

If you want to make a few "dummy rounds", they can be useful for action testing, etc. as well as getting the feel of the process. However, you do have to resize them.

IMO, the cannelure's position at the case mouth has very little to do with case neck tension, which is what holds the bullet in the case, not the crimp. (And very few reloaders crimp for bolt-action rifles...it usually hurts accuracy.)

 

[gregj]

I just noticed the same thing on some jacketed 223 bullets I picked up at my LGS to start loading for my AR. The bearing surface on these are from the cannelure back. The diamer of the bullet just in front of the cannelure is much less. I verified this with my RCBS Precison Mic, and compared it to some OEM (PMC) rounds I have on hand, that also have a cannelure. The accuracy of my loads using these bullets was really terrible, so they will be used for plinking purposes. BTW, I loaded them w/o a crimp, and there was no movement in the bullet, with the cannelure slightly above the case.

 

[cfullgraf]

It is neck tension, not crimping that holds the bullet in place. And it is the entire neck of the case.

While with the mouth at the cannelure, there is less total grip on the bullet, the bullet should not be loose in the case.

This would indicate to me there is some problem with your reloading process or resizing die. Besides what dmazure said, check the diameter of your expander ball. The ball may be too big. Make sure your sizing die is sizing the neck enough.

Finally, the case mouth does not have to be set at the cannelure, particularly if you are not crimping. It looks a bit strange, but it works fine as long as if fits in your rifle.

 

[utbrowningman]

I have the Lee Pacesetter die set so I used the full length deprimer/sizer since some of the brass (fired once) is from an older .30-06 that I no longer have. The sizing die would size the neck to .303".

 

[rcmodel]

Then measure the expander plug.

It must be .002" - .003" smaller then the bullet or it will expand the case to much.

If it measures more then .305" - .306" MAX you need to chuck it in a drill and turn it down using emery paper.

If your old brass happens to be Remington, it might just be thin necks you can't resize enough.
But your .303" ID measurment doesn't sound like it.

rc

 

[dmazur]

If you are using calipers to measure inside diameter, it isn't accurate due to the thickness of the jaws.

If I use calipers to measure the ID of a resized .30-06 case, I also get something like 0.303". However, a split-ball transfer gauge shows the diameter to be more like 0.306". For bullets that measure 0.307" - 0.308", this is described as 0.0015" of neck tension.

While you aren't using dies with bushing inserts for neck resizing, this article explains some of the factors that can affect neck tension -

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/neck-tension-not-just-bushing-size/

So, I'm kind of stumped. Do the bullets measure 0.308" or is it something smaller?

 

[dmazur]

double

 

[utbrowningman]

The bullets do measure.308 just before the cannelure.

 

[243winxb]

The sizing die would size the neck to .303".

Is this the inside measurement of the neck? Try seating a bullet at Maximum COL, is it held tight now? Make sure you have the seating die adjusted correctly as there is a crimper in it. The seating die will taper crimp first, then roll crimp if the die is screwed in to far. See Lee's help link below.

 

[243winxb]

Bullet Seating Adjustment

The trick is to set the bullet seating depth first, then the crimp. This is done as follows; With an empty, sized case in the shell holder, hold the ram at the top of its stroke. Turn the bullet seating die body down over the case until you feel it come to a stop. This will be when the case mouth contacts the crimp shoulder inside the die. Mark this position by turning the lock ring down against the turret or press frame. Now adjust your bullet seating depth. Once you have the bullet seated to the desired depth, back the bullet seater adjuster out about 1 turn. Now turn the bullet seating die body in to apply the desired crimp. Once this is established, hold the ram at the top of its stroke and spin the bullet seater adjuster down until it stops.

It is a good idea to carry this out with an empty case, so that after you have seated the bullet, you have a perfectly safe "dummy" cartridge (or gauge) to repetitively set seating depth and crimp on future occasions.

Once you have this "dummy" gauge, all you have to do is place it in the shell holder, raise the ram to the top of its stroke, turn the bullet seating body down until it stops, and then turn the bullet seating depth adjuster in until it stops. Since the crimp and the seating depth were already set, the die will return to very close to the same settings.

Full Length die adjustment

When using our full length sizing dies for rifle cartridges, the die should be turned in to touch the shell holder and then enough more that there is no daylight between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die during the sizing process. This is the preferred method because the act of sizing sometimes results in flex that prevents the shell holder from touching the bottom of the die.

Lee dies are designed so that the shoulder of the case is not sized until the very top of the die has been reached. This is done for two reasons; first, we do not want the die to overwork your brass and second and more importantly, we do not want to invite headspace problems. Pushing the shoulder back too soon can create a situation that can eventually cause case separation and a dangerous situation.

If you notice that your Lee Die does not appear to push the shoulder of your case back, ensure that you are adjusting the die so that there is no daylight between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die during the sizing process. If you see daylight at the top of the stroke, readjust the die downward and repeat sizing until it disappears. If your case is still difficult to chamber, you can send the die back to us with a sized case and we can modify the die to minimum SAAMI specifications.

Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway U
Hartford, WI 53027

 

[utbrowningman]

Thanks for your help. Went back and traced my steps. Appears I had the FLS die adjusted wrong. Resized a case and seated a bullet right on the crimp and it is holding tight.