CZ-75 (clones) Carry

[Okiegunner]

As highly as the CZ-75 (and clones, TZ-75, Springfield P/9, Tanfoglio Force Carry, etc.) are there no U.S. LEO that carry this pistol?

Everywhere you read, this is a highly regarded firearm. Accurate and dependable. Yet it seems that no American departments carry this pistol as a sidearm. Why is this? Thoughts?

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

I don't know how much any of them run for, but cost effectiveness? Replacement parts? Aftermarket support?

 

[hAkron]

According to CZ, the CZ 75 and variants (I think they do include clones in this statistic) are the most carried police/military side arm in the world...I can't find it on their site right now though. Even so, The US military and American police departments seem to ignore the CZ.

Anything that government agencies buy is always going to have to meet a specific set of criteria, and also go to the lowest bidder who meets that criteria. Some manufacturers build or change their products in anticipation of these requirements.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I seem to remember an episode of COPS that show the Broward County (FLA) Sheriff's Department carrying CZs

 

[jmr40]

CZ's are highly regarded only on the internet. CZ's highly deceptive remarks are quite misleading. There are no major police or military units that issue CZ's anywhere in the world. Some were used in a handful of 3rd world countries at one time, but even most of those have moved on to better designs.

The CZ's are above average in accuracy and are popular with guys who like to play range games, but when put up side by side and tested for the needs of a combat pistol they come up short when compared to Sig's, Beretta's, Glocks, S&W's, etc.

In short they are below average in reliabilty. No one wants a steel gun anymore. The narrow slide and tiny ejection port make clearing malfunctions difficult. The trigger reach is too long for many users in DA and no one wants to issue a SA pistol to anyone other than the most highly trained officers.

 

[jim243]

jmr40, there are a lot of mis-statements in your post.

There are no major police or military units that issue CZ's anywhere in the world.

CZ's have been used by many police and mil units for years, just not any that you have been arrested by.

The CZ's are above average in accuracy and are popular with guys who like to play range games, but when put up side by side and tested for the needs of a combat pistol they come up short

That too is not true, they are one of only three pistols that I am aware of, that carry the NATO approved designation for approved purchase. They have been tested way above any of the current US pistols and passed with flying colors.

In short they are below average in reliabilty. No one wants a steel gun anymore

No they are way above average in reliabiltiy and I guess you do not like all steel 1911's? No one wants steel guns anymore? (LOL LOL LOL)

Jim

 

[Thompsoncustom]

I think it all comes down to cost if they could get CZ cheaper than they could get glocks every cops would probably be issued a CZ but plastic is cheap so that's what they get.

 

[nonamehavei]

^^^^^^ this

 

[BinhThuyUSN]

thompsoncustom is right on in the assessment of why US cops don't carry CZ 75's. Cost does play a factor but the weight consideration is more the norm. If one takes a look at what a police officer carries on their waist belt; you would understand that to carry the lightest side arm is invaluable.

 

[greyling22]

cost and weight. and advertising. Cz's are more popular in europe than in america.

 

[sigarms228]

CZs are big and heavy - not something your average Police Office wants to lug around.

No doubt that striker fired poly pistols are cheaper to make, easier to maintain, very reliable and durable, plenty combat accurate, and easy to operate - what is there not to like about that?

For those US agencies/departments that want a metal frame DA/SA pistol they usually go with SIG such as the P229 for the Secret Service using the .357 SIG round. The SEALs use the P226 MK25. Those SIGs have proven record of high reliability, durability, accuracy, and a great trigger out of the box. SIGs are also easy to field strip and fairly easy to detail strip. Their alloy frames also help keep the weight down.

In any case the whole "what is used most in the world" has little meaning to me as to what I want. Police Officers typically drive around an Ford and Chevy's too. That does not make me want to own one.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Basically what I said in the second post: cost effective. If it's not cost effective for the agencies/military, and does nothing profoundly better that would justify the higher price tag, why change what they are issuing now?

 

[Boatsman]

If you want a lighter framed CZ look at the SP01 Phantom, mine is definitely above average in reliability and accuracy. Great capacity as well.

 

[Pilot]

CZ makes a full line of lightweight alloy and polymer pistols like the PCR, P-01, SP-01 and P-07. If you do not want an all steel CZ you can buy one or more of these.

 

[Sam Cade]

CZ's have been used by many police and mil units for years, just not any that you have been arrested by.

So who are the major users of CZ pistols? Not onesies and twosies.



The Czechs of course, but who else?

 

[armoredman]

There are no major police or military units that issue CZ's anywhere in the world.

Geez, dude, if you want to sling the BS, research a bit first, will ya?
Phillipene National Police Force, 118,000 strong department, dropped Glock for the CZ P-07 several years ago. Czech National Police has replaced their PCRs with P-07s, and the Czech Military has replaced their CZ 82s and Glocks with the CZ SP-01 Phantom. I also known one USA police chief who carries a CZ-75B. I remember hearing of one department in Texas that switched to the CZ P-01, (Alice went down to mark the occasion), but I don't remember the name, sorry. I tried for years to get my Dept to look at either the P-01 or the SP-01, but the money crunch hit right when the contract ended. Bummer.
Reliability, well, when the Czech Police force was testing the CZ P-01, the failure rate was measured against the US Army's "Mean Rounds Between Failure" standard, which is 495 rounds in the 9mm pistol. The P-01 averaged 2142 MRBF, or .05%. Better than the Beretta, IIRC.
CZs are very popular overseas, got a late start here in the US and started against negative advertising. but don't forget that even the notable and celebrated Colonel Jeff Cooper recommended the US Military switch to the CZ-75 for a service pistol. I think he had some experience fighting with a handgun in some difficult terrain. To be fair, he did want us to stay with the .45ACP, but if we had to switch, we should have gone with the CZ-75. Wouldn't THAT procurement order have been interesting!
Now, back to the OP, CZ clones are popular in Israel, and other hot spots around the world, from what I've been told - I have never traveled to those areas and personally checked, which seems to be the standard we are measured against.
I also agree the CZ SP-01 Phantom is an excellent duty sized sidearm,(I carry one concealed, even in Arizona heat it can be done easily), and the P-07 Duty polymer has made significant inroads all over the world as a duty firearm, including Israel, Spain, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, South Africa, Thialand, and of course, the afore mentioned Philliene Islands. We watch for the new P-09 Duty, due out soon, to see what splash this makes internationally. Maybe some more users can ditch the "older designs" they are carrying to upgrade their gear.

 

[wojownik]

Some users of the CZ family of pistols include:

• Colombian Army (some units - saw them with what I think were municipal police in Bogotá several years ago - the military police guys had Beretta 92s)
• Czech Armed Forces
• Czech national police
• Czech municipal police (Prague, Brno, and I also saw them carried by the local cops in Český Krumlov)
• Czech judicial police
• El Salvador's Policia Nacional
• Finland customs police (been a while though)
• Georgia (the country, not the US state)
• Honduras: Policia Nacional Preventiva
• Israel (including the "Masada" marked CZ75 compacts. The Jericho was also based on the CZ75)
• Lithuanian ARAS Task Force
• Polish army (at least with some of the Żandarmeria Wojskowa I've seen)
• Polish police (GROM - among many other handguns)
• Russian police agencies (have seen videos with OMON training with CZ-75s, and the Ministry of the Interior also approved use of the CZ-75 - as well as the Glock 17, FWIW)
• Slovak rail police
• Slovak military police
• Slovak Kukláči and OUO special units
• Royal Thai Army
• South African Army special units (pre-1994)

Clones/under license:

• Chilean army (clone - FN750)
• Iran (army and some police using clones, unknown source/mfgr)
• Turkish police (M2000)

 

[SFsc616171]

Re: CZ75 Carry

It's called "The World of Federal Contracts"!

CZ's and all the clones, ARE NOT MANUFACTURED OR ASSEMBLED IN THE GOOD OL' USA!

Smith and Wesson do not have a control on these particular brands fo firearms, yet, like Walther.

For the record, CZ75's are re-designed Browning Hi Powers.

 

[wojownik]

Some good discussion points here.

It's called "The World of Federal Contracts"!

Which has nothing to do with selling to US state, county or city police departments. But generally speaking, yeah, the world of government contracts (local, state Federal) is complicated and not for the faint-of-heart (at least not for those who don't have the resources to jump in with both feet with sales, marketing, contract support and procurement expertise).

CZ's and all the clones, ARE NOT MANUFACTURED OR ASSEMBLED IN THE GOOD OL' USA!

True enough. CZ-USA is an importer of CZ-UB products, not a manufacturer or assembly plant. Relevant point being that if CZ-USA was really serious about selling to state, local or Federal government, they would have done what Sig, HK, Beretta and others to do more local assembly.

That does not impugn the quality of the CZ product, just the market strategy. BTW, there is some justifiable regard for all-German Sigs, rather than those assembled by the Sig Exeter boys in the good ol' USA.

If CZ-USA were serious about the agency market in the USA, it probably would require much more financial investment than may have been possible to step up local assembly, dedicated sales and marketing staff, competing in innumerable trials, etc.

CZ products are not used by many (any??) police agencies that I know of in the US. On the other hand, I can't recall a competitive procurement or technical competition to which CZ-USA responded. Bidding for government business is time consuming, expensive, and usually with a predetermined outcome (or at least a strong preconception on the part of the government buyer).

Smith and Wesson do not have a control on these particular brands fo firearms, yet, like Walther.

Huh? S&W has no relation to CZ. Is your point that CZ products might have done better with someone like S&W as a partner, rather than the CZ-USA team? Interesting discussion point from a business perspective. Not that CZ-USA has done bad - just that their focus seems to be on the commerical/consumer market.

For the record, CZ75's are re-designed Browning Hi Powers.

And the BHP is a re-design of Browning's 1911 - or at least taking it to a next level. IIRC, the CZ75 also borrows from the Sig p210 slide design. My personal opinion is that the CZ75 takes the BHP to the next level. YMMV...

 

[armoredman]

For the record, CZ75's are re-designed Browning Hi Powers.

For the record, no they aren't.
The late, great Stephen Camp, the expert of all BHP experts once dissected that theory, and it is false. http://hipowersandhandguns.com/Browning and CZ.htm
I would hope that since CZ-USA does own a US plant nowadays, Dan Wesson, that maybe someday they will import the machinery to make local CZs. Maybe. Might wait until after the election to see if it's worthwhile.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

n short they are below average in reliabilty. No one wants a steel gun anymore. The narrow slide and tiny ejection port make clearing malfunctions difficult. The trigger reach is too long for many users in DA...

That's funny, I carried a CZ-75B on duty for years and competed with it quite often. Never had a problem with it's function, nor with manipulating it's slide.

...and no one wants to issue a SA pistol to anyone other than the most highly trained officers.

Which certainly explains all the 1911s and BHPs fellow officers carried... Oh... wait..

Seriously, don't respond unless you know what you are talking about.

1005-16-000-8619

That's all you need to know about the reliability of the CZ-75 platform. I mean geesh, you could have at least checked wikipedia before letting the whole world know you were just shooting off at the mouth.

 

[Sam Cade]

Some users of the CZ family of pistols include:

[*]Georgia (the country, not the US state)

They list sixteen other pistols too.




I wish we had numbers for this sort of thing or at least a current TOE for "users".

Phillipene National Police Force, 118,000 strong department, dropped Glock for the CZ P-07 several years ago.

They didn't drop the Glock. They might have purchased some CZs though.
I wonder how big that order was, really.
Either HUGE or miniscule.




http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/337843/pnp-chief-vows-solve-gun-shortage-police-force

 

[Okiegunner]

CZ Clone Phillipine Police

I do not know if this has any bearing on the Phillipine carry pistol/contract or not.

However Armscor (which I believe is one of the larger Asian arms makers) is now producing a licensed copy of the Tanfoglio Force Carry, in both steel and polymer versions. Don't know if they are up to the quality of the Italian made pistols or not, but with CNC machines and the proper metal and polymers, I don't see why they would not be.

Just seems to me that a country (especially 3rd, ur... maybe 2nd world country would like to spend their dollars for local manfacture) for sure if the quality was the same.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

With regard to "the most widely used? claim ...and the CZ-75 being a variant of the BHP

CZ are used in a LOT of small police forces around the world. A few militaries are starting to use them, but that is a very recent development. In most cases, it's a few here and a few there in a lot of different places.

In terms of departments and PLACES where they are in use, that probably does makes them the most widely used. But in terms of number of weapons in use, the US Military probably uses more Beretta M9s than CZ 75s in all of those widely-used departments and agencies around the world. I suspect U.S. use of Glocks in Police Departments is a close second. S&W seems to be gaining there, too. "Used in more places" is not the same as "more gun used than"...

CZ 75s aren't widely used in the U.S. yet, by police, but probably will be, one of these days, when CZ-USA has the deep pockets to BUY THEIR WAY into the market like Glock and S&W and Ruger has done, over the years.

I like CZs a lot. But, I also spent a lot of years in product development and marketing (in a different industry), and know how experts can make words seem to mean more than they actually do. CZ's marketing and advertising staffs are good at what they do.

The CZ 75 design has NOTHING in common with the Browning Hi-Power design. Anyone who has bothered to look at the parts diagrams for both guns wouldn't make that claim. (I have both, and have detail-stripped both, and the differences between them are major, with only the browning barrel lockup design being similar. The BHP is SA, and the original CZ75 was DA/SA, and the subsequent SA models were basically the same gun with the disconnector removed and some slight changes in the controls. Great gun, by the way.) They do look a lot alike, but looks can be deceiving. (And the SIG P210 slide-inside-the-frame design itself was borrowed from an earlier French pistol design, so CZ owes as much to France as SIG.)

Re: I don't think the Phillipine National Police probably swapped out their Glocks for P-07s several years ago. The P-07 wasn't even introduced until 2009, and suspect it was not available in quantity until a lot later -- and then primarily for European or US markets. If anyone has proof to the contrary, I'll happily stand corrected.


.

 

[wkumatt]

For what its worth, no pistols ever felt right in my hands until I bought my first CZ 75 B. There was always something about the way one felt in my hand or the balance that didn't quite feel right. I once owned one or more of most of the above mentioned brands in the past.

I realize this is just my opinion, but if I had unlimited funds and could pay someone to make a pistol just for my hands and shooting style it would be CZ 75 C.

All of my pistols are now CZ (revolvers are a different story). I shoot all of the steel case cheap crap I can find and I've had exactly zero malfunctions of any kind. My only problem has been the mag release on one of my m82 surplus pistols has wollered out and only works from one side.

This is the classic my cheese is better than your cheese argument and none of us will ever win it. But if they keep making them the way they have been I have no reason to ever buy anything else.

PS, except in 45, the m97 grip is too deep for my palms.

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