CZ/clones questions

[Rittmeister]

It's been AGES since I posted here...

I've been muddling along for a few years with my 1911 and my Hi-Power, and recently have felt the urge to pick up another handgun. I'm very interested in the CZ75 and its clones, and after quite a lot of research here and elsewhere I still have several questions. Hopefully some of the kind folks around here can help.

To start - I'm looking for a full-size, steel, 9mm pistol. I'd like one that has readily-available magazines and parts. This gun will not be used for carry, but for range fun and possibly as a house gun (though I use my .45 for that most often). Finally, I'm a teacher; I'm prepared to pay for a real CZ if I can find one (more on that below) but if I can go on a lower budget that would be nice

1. Of the true CZs, the SA interests me the most. However, my local gun shops have actually told me they can't get them. I wouldn't be surprised if the SA were a new item, but it's not... I'd like to buy locally to avoid the necessity of an FFL transfer, but these guys are actually telling me their distributors don't carry them! Any thoughts?

2. On the Witness pistols - I like the fact that you can retract the slide and load/unload with the safety on. I'm seeing a LOT of confusion about frame sizes though. I'd like a standard gun with 3-dot sights, steel frame, that takes 15-16 round mags (notably the Mec-Gar 16 rounders at CDNN). I think what I want is the "small" frame, (not compact, just the opposite of the .45/10mm frame) but I'm wondering if it's still in production. If I buy a new-manufacture 9mm Witness what am I actually getting? BTW, the caliber convertibility is nice but I'm not sure how much I care - I'm not looking at that as a buying point, in other words.

Another question - how hard is it to get parts for Witness pistols?

3. The AR24. It's new, it's "hot", and I have no idea on true compatibility with other CZ-type pistols, or availability of parts etc. I'm leaning away from this gun already frankly, mostly because of its newness.

I think I'm the most sold on the Witness right now, unless I find that parts are tough to get, and assuming I can find the "right" frame. This may seem stupid, but in looking at pictures, it seems that what I want is the frame that accepts flat-bottom metal magazines (like factory Hi-power), not the mags that have a bumper that sort of matches the contour of the frontstrap.

Any thoughts (regarding CZ/clones, don't try to talk me into anything else) would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Cliff47]

I'll keep it short: CZech out the CZForum at www.CZForum.com. Lots of information on the entire line of CZ pistols, Dan Wesson pistols, and a CZ Classifieds that may just have what you are looking for at any given time. See you there.

 

[Rittmeister]

Been there, and am still looking around. I would appreciate any input regardless.

 

[ceadermtnboy]

I have the Armalite AR-24 full size with adj sights and checkered forestrap and backstrap. I personally think they are better made than the CZ. However aftermarket parts such as grips, sights, etc are non-existant at this point. You can get mags easily enough so thats not a problem. Mine is very accurate and reliable and worth all $455.00 I paid for it. I would reccomend it. In fact I am seriously thinking about adding the compact version because they feel great in the hand, and will conceal better. Anyway the CZ design is top notch and you will not go wrong in whatever pistol you decide on.

 

[goon]

On the SA, why are you so hung up on that variant?
The Standard 75B allows cocked-and-locked use AND it allows you to have a DA first shot.
You get to choose.
Why limit yourself by removing an option that you might end up liking?
Especially considering that as a house gun, it wouldn't really hurt anything to store it with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber, which would mean that it basically wouldn't matter that the gun wasn't an SA because it would become an SA as soon as you chamber a round anyway.
Also, the triggers on the CZ's I've owned started out OK, then really smoothed up after a couple hundred rounds. My new-to-me P-01 is no exception - dry firing has really smoothed things out.
The SA trigger on any broken-in CZ will probably end up being pretty good. All things being equal, I wouldn't choose to not get a standard 75B based only on the SA trigger. IIRC, CZ can switch the trigger to an SA later if that's what you want (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Just my thoughts...

Also, I'd never try to talk you out of a CZ and into something else.
I haven't heard anything bad about most clones but the only one I've ever shot myself was an IMI baby eagle. It seemed to be a good gun, meaning it was reliable and shot well. IIRC, it was also steel framed and a little heavier than a compact CZ.
But I'd still stick with a real CZ.
For one, the price isn't that bad on a CZ compared to its competition. They're often $100 less than that something comparable and in my experience, are more reliable and accurate than SIG's.
Second, if that's what you like you should just spend the extra $50 and get it. Why buy something you don't like when you can have a quality gun that's exactly what you want for just a little more? If you settle for something else, you'll probably just end up trading for a CZ eventually anyhow. So just get what you want the first time.

 

[eerw]

The 75SA is available..several online sellers have them..might have your dealer call CZ-USA.

the small frame tanfoglio (witness ) is still made..but not being imported by EAA..they have standardized on the large frame version in all the calibers.

I like the CZ..due to the availability of parts, mags and accessories..and the support of the the shooting sports I participate in. Of the other clone companies, only Tanfoglio supports shooting sports..but that is outside the borders of the US.

 

[BlindJustice]

+1 Goon, and the CZ has the aftermarket/factory parts support.

I bought a standard blued CZ 75B 2 1/2 Months ago - 580 rds fired
of various bullet type/weight & manufactuerer - 100% reliable & very
accurate - I have a 1911 and no problem with Cocked & Locked carry.
However, I like the DA/SA of the 75B - expands my handgun experience,
& like another poster said, charge the chamber, at the range it's mostly
SA - it doesn't go to DA by itself. I think the SA version has a
different hammer which makes it's SA trigger pull a bit shorter. This mod.
is available at Ghost, Arizona - where the CZ guru and champion
has the CZ Custom shop - any part you can think of is there.

Randall

 

[Rittmeister]

Responses:

I like the idea of the SA CZ for several reasons. First, I'm very used to the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power, which are of course SA; I wouldn't have much in the way of habits to change. Second, as far as I'm concerned the standard CZ75B would effectively be a single action pistol in my hands; the idea of charging the chamber, then pulling the trigger and easing the hammer down on a live round is pretty disconcerting. I know it can be done safely but it makes me more than a little nervous. Finally, and I admit this is silly, I like the look of the SA better - the slide profile at the muzzle is IMO more aesthetically pleasing and I like the extended beavertail. Stupid I admit but there you go.

Next question - when looking at online ads/auctions, what should I look for to identify the large vs. small frame Witness? Mag bumper, mag capacity, what? And which frame do the standard Mec-Gar 16-round mags fit (these: http://www.cdnninvestments.com/wi9mm16manew.html )? This is of course assuming they even show a picture of the pistol for sale; I've already seen tons of auctions where they are advertising a polymer frame gun but have a picture of a steel frame.

 

[Dobe]

3. The AR24. It's new, it's "hot", and I have no idea on true compatibility with other CZ-type pistols, or availability of parts etc. I'm leaning away from this gun already frankly, mostly because of its newness.

Don't sell this one short.

Most of the CZ clones are not clones, but rather versioned copies.

 

[Rittmeister]

Most of the CZ clones are not clones, but rather versioned copies.

This is understood. "Clones" is probably a lousy term, but it sounds better/more polite in my mind than "ripoff" or "knockoff" if that makes any sense.

 

[railroader]

http://www.whittakerguns.com/ This is where I got my cz75sa. They have good prices. Mark

 

[goon]

On the SA - if that's what you like you should go for it, even if only for aesthetic reasons and familiarity. If it's what you like and you prefer it over anything else, that's what you should spend your money on.
I also agree with whoever it was that said to have your dealer check with CZ.
My local shop in podunk PA can get CZ's direct so there shouldn't be any problem with any shop getting them.

 

[Pilot]

Second, as far as I'm concerned the standard CZ75B would effectively be a single action pistol in my hands; the idea of charging the chamber, then pulling the trigger and easing the hammer down on a live round is pretty disconcerting. I know it can be done safely but it makes me more than a little nervous.

There is nothing wrong or difficult in lowering the hammer on a gun with the round in the chamber. The CZ is designed for doing this as it can be carried in DA mode at the safety notch. I have done it a lot over the years of shooting my CZ-75B, but if you prefer the SA get that. The "B" does allow cocked and locked carry as well, so you get the flexibility of both. CZ also makes similar pistols with a decocker that decocks to the safety notch. My 75D PCR is like that. Any of the "D" models also have a decocker, such as the full size "BD" model. Many also like the P-01 which has a decocker and light rail, but I see no use for a rail on a gun.

 

[Rittmeister]

Yes, I'm aware of the decocker versions... not terribly interested in those to be frank. I also am set on a full-size rather than compact (PCR/P01) frame.

When you carry double action, you say you carry with the hammer on the "safety notch." Is this what I think of as the half-cock notch? With the hammer in that position, can it still be operated as a double action pistol by pulling the trigger, or must you thumb-cock the hammer to put it back into SA mode?

 

[atblis]

Well

The AR24. It's new, it's "hot", and I have no idea on true compatibility with other CZ-type pistols, or availability of parts etc. I'm leaning away from this gun already frankly, mostly because of its newness.

I wouldn't call it hot. I suspect they'll be in the CDNN Invesmtents catalog here in a bit (planning on picking one up then). They look like solidly made pistols, and I suspect Armalite would take care of you.

The 75B SA does seem tricky to find. I wouldn't worry about the FFL transfer. It's not difficult and should not be expensive <$25. Just shop around. If a shop gives you any grief and or wants too much, go to the next one.

There's a good probability Tanfoglio parts will work in the AR.

Of the three choices, I'd be inclined to go with
1st CZ. Known performer and good service and some parts
2nd the Armalite. Feels/looks solid. Bit of an unknown. Parts??
3rd the EAA Horrid service, but cheap.

However, if I found a deal on any one of those, I'd jump on that.

EDIT: Oh yeah, almost forgot you've got three other choices
Armscor: This is interesting. It looks straight Tanfoglio and is a small frame. Company has a decent CS history. I'd check this one out.
Baby Eagle. I think they still use the small frame 9mm. Decent pistols.
Academy Sarsilmaz. Academy is importing a Turkish 9x19. Looks like a straight Tanfolgio. SHould be small frame.

 

[FEG]

When you carry double action, you say you carry with the hammer on the "safety notch." Is this what I think of as the half-cock notch? With the hammer in that position, can it still be operated as a double action pistol by pulling the trigger, or must you thumb-cock the hammer to put it back into SA mode?

Type B CZ 75/85 series pistols with a manual safety can be safely carried in three different ways:

1) Condition 1. All shots are SA.

2) Condition 2. First shot is DA from full rest (hammer completely down), subsequent shots are SA.

3) Condition 1.5. First shot is DA from half-cock notch (hammer approximately halfway down), subsequent shots are SA. You aren't supposed to thumb cock the hammer, but I guess nothing really prevents it.

Note that Type B CZs with a decocker actually decock to the half-cock notch, not full rest. I communicated with Mike Eagleshield (CZ-USA gunsmith) back in 2002 or so, and he represented to the CZ Forum that the Type Bs with the manual safety can also be carried safely on the half-cock notch. Not too many people do this with the manual safety models, though, because they do not realize it is as safe as full rest. (The product literature and instruction manuals do not mention it.)

 

[goon]

Rittmeister - you would be carrying it at the safety intercept notch if you lowered the hammer from full cock.
It can still be fired DA for that first shot (It's actually designed that way) and it's pretty safe. They put the P-01 (which is only DA/SA and uses a decocker) through all kinds of drop tests and it passed with flying colors.

 

[FEG]

Rittmeister - you would be carrying it at the safety intercept notch if you lowered the hammer from full cock.
It can still be fired DA for that first shot (It's actually designed that way) and it's pretty safe. They put the P-01 (which is only DA/SA and uses a decocker) through all kinds of drop tests and it passed with flying colors.

The manual and other resources from CZ instruct the user to manually decock to full rest (hammer all of the way down) on the models with a manual safety, rather than decocker. The 75/85 series pistols were originally designed this way. In fact, they didn't even have a half-cock notch until 1980. I would not advise carrying a Type A CZ 75/85 series pistol on the half-cock notch. The design was altered at some point in the early 1990s to accomodate this, but it is probably best to assume it isn't safe with a true Type A (1977-1992). I would recommend emailing CZ-USA for a clarification if you want to carry a pre-B on the half-cock notch.

[email protected]

Carrying a manual safety model on the half-cock notch is perfectly safe with a Type B 75/85 series pistol. However, I don't think many people do it that way.

The decocker function on the D models decocks to the half-cock notch, and it is definitely designed for this. For one thing, if you manually decock to full rest on a D model, the DA trigger pull feels about twice as heavy and stacks like crazy.


EDIT: The firing pin block ("B") has nothing directly to do with it, but the introduction of the B models roughly corresponded with the introduction of the beefed-up half-cock notch. Apparently, this feature wasn't considered necessary until the introduction of the decocking models.

 

[Dobe]

The 75B SA does seem tricky to find. I wouldn't worry about the FFL transfer. It's not difficult and should not be expensive <$25. Just shop around. If a shop gives you any grief and or wants too much, go to the next one.

I have this model. I do like it, and find it to be an accurate and very fun gun to shoot. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone who wanted a CZ.

 

[Rittmeister]

I want to thank all who contributed. For better or worse, I put down a deposit on an Armscor MAP1 9mm today, should have it later in the week. This pistol seems to fit my desires and my pocketbook the best.

Thanks!

 

[tekarra]

Rittmeister,
Remember to post photos and a report after you shoot your new Armscor.

 

[Rittmeister]

I'm just hoping the pistol I ordered is the one that shows up - the amount of research I had to do to find the older-style small-frame Tanfoglio was downright silly.

With a little luck it'll be here tomorrow (Thurs) but more likely Friday. I'll snap some pics and post them here.

 

[loop]

The MAP1 imported by Armscor is made by Tanfoglio. It is the small frame version that is not imported by EAA.

Most Tanfogilo parts, with the exception of magazine-related parts, will fit the small frame.

Henning Walgren is a factory Tanfoglio shooter who lives in Colorado. He has a small shop and sells and makes parts for Tanfoglios. He also usually has some parts for the small frames. His Web site is: http://www.tanfoglioparts.com/

The small frame Armscor is brining in is not competitive with EAA because EAA chooses not to import it. I don't own any 9mms, but have several Tanfoglios in .45. It is my understanding that the CZ75 mags will work in the MAP1.

If you have questions about your gun and what will fit it, call Henning. He knows more about them than anyone else. If you want custom work done to it I recommend Canyon Creek. They work on Henning's guns and even post a price list for Tanfoglio custom work. Their Web site is: http://www.canyoncreekcustom.com/Home_Page.html

 

[FEG]

I'm just hoping the pistol I ordered is the one that shows up - the amount of research I had to do to find the older-style small-frame Tanfoglio was downright silly.

No one sells new Tanfoglios in my area. This is the main reason I've never owned one. For the reason you mention, I feel better seeing the pistol in person first.

 

[Dobe]

I just got my AR24 back from Birdsong. Black T is awsome. I wish I had access to a camera. I was surprised how much it slicked up the trigger.