CZ-pattern guns- Reliability

[walksbyhimself]

Howdy all, ran across this on pistol-training.com and wanted to open a discussion on it. Apologies if it's already on here.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218#comments

Basically describes a multi-day high-round-count training class where four shooters had CZ-type pistols (3 CZ's and a Witness IIRC), and most of the others with Glocks and similar modern polymer guns. All four of the CZ-types had issues, and only one made it through the whole class.

So, the discussion topic is: How does CZ and related weapons' reliability compare to that of a modern polymer pistol, an example being a Glock or M&P, for high round counts. Also open for discussion; how much preventative maintenence is required for each, and how does that affect the primary question of reliability.

Rules for the discussion:
I don't want this to turn into an emotion-filled ****-storm like the one in the link did. If you have something to say that's not based on fact, don't say it.
If your self-esteem is somehow connected to the pistol you own/shoot, kindly don't post.

 

[Justin]

Much of what Todd said is correct. My response is here.

 

[GIJOEL]

My personal experience has been that CZ firearms are VERY tight when new. If a new CZ 75 was taken to a class I would imagine it would be jammed up by lunch. After buying my CZ 452 I was horrified to find steel shavings all over the action. My p-07 (poly framed) smoothed out with 100 rds and a cleaning. I haven't shot a steel CZ 75 in a while but I used to run my Dads through 200-300rds with my buddies without problems. If I bought a CZ 75 new I would probably break it in thoroughly before going to a class.

 

[Jim Watson]

My "pre-B" started giving extraction failures about my second season with it. A new, sharp extractor and a stronger extractor spring ($13 for the set, they had gotten tired of sending free stuff to people who just wanted a spare) fixed it. I have had no other problem with it.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

I have 2 CZ 75's.

I broke the trigger return spring on the first one after probably 5000 trigger pulls. That was a $10 fix.

I had to replace the mag springs.

One of them does not like steel case ammo so much.

Other then that no problems in probably 10000 rounds fired.

Btw I have had a glock 17 that was such a jam -o - matic I sold it, even after a trip back to Glock, who stated everything was fine.

My M&P pro is now on its way back to Smith and Wesson because the front sight just fell off.

The only guns I have owned that were always 100% are the 92 f/s and ruger P-95

 

[167]

It has already been mentioned towards the end of this thread. I think some of the CZ guys are the same ones who posted over on pistol-training.com too.

 

[1SOW]

I have a 75B that is approaching 20K rounds. I need to add that I've modified it to handle light loads for USPA competition. Lighter Springs, trigger assmbly smoothing, sights +

It wouldn't shoot aluminum cased Blazer ammo-- maybe at 10K (first aluminum I tried---I fixed that with an xtra power extractor spring.

Trigger spring broke at about 15Krds. --replaced it with a better spring.

Slide stop broke at around 16K+/- rds--replaced.

I still really like the gun. It shoots smoothly and accurately.

My SD gun is a Sig 239. Maybe 10+K through it. Shoots anything that goes in the chamber.

I used to own a 1974 Gremlin--for 14 years. The dang thing started and drove every time you put the key in the ignition. It's probably still running --somewhere.

I also used to own a 1970 Mark Donahue Javellin. I had to keep new plugs and points in it, tune it frequently and run the highest octane premium fuel; but it was really a blast to drive.

 

[CZF]

CZimply The Best!

For me that is... and many more out there who dare to be different.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

One other thing, cz patterned tanfoglios are the most popular limited, limited 10 and open guns in my USPSA club after 1911's

Tanfoglios also dominate in Europe IPSC competitions. Numerous world champions have used Tanfoglios and CZ's

Eric Grauffel has been the top shooter in the world for the last 10 years


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Practical_Shooting_Confederation#World_Shoot

And he uses Tanfoglios.

Adam Tyc used the CZ shadow to win the IPSC world championship production division in 2005 and 2007.

Also several euro nations that use Glock and other polymer pistols, issue the uber high quality CZ pattern Swiss Sphinx 3000 to their special forces instead of Glocks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_Systems#Users_.28Sphinx_3000.29

 

[armoredman]

I'll just keep it short and sweet.
In 6 Witness and 10 CZ pistols I have not had the problems mentioned in either blog.


Now, I need to go take a blue pill....or was it the red one? Can't remember...

 

[Morgo]

My CZ's are some of the most reliable pistols I own.

I'd like to know how many rounds they fired in this course where 4 CZ pistols failed, I can't imagine it was very many and would be inclined to think the owners of said pistols were more at fault than the actual pistol.

 

[hardluk1]

I only have one witness but a second upper and they have run 100% for me. Love the pistols

 

[armoredman]

I was told by a person supposedly there that it was 1,900 rounds in 4 days but only one gun went 4 days. One CZ went two days, so 950 rounds, one went one day, so 475, and the Tanfoglio, (they never did answer how CZ was responsible for the Tanfoglio ), went one day, so 475 rounds for it. But, I wasn't there, so I can't verify anything.

 

[briang2ad]

I've been on and watching the CZ Forum for YEARS. Here are the problems:

1. Extractor Spring is weak. This happens on a few, and is an EASY shooter fix with a Wolf spring. Again, it happens on SOME guns.

2. Trigger return springs - on VERY few - I happened to break four, but I'm the only one this has happened to, and I STILL believe that they are VERY reliable guns. (I believe that this was mainly a problem with SOME 2003 guns). Its also why I get MANUAL safety guns, because you can detail strip one with a manual safety very easily.

2. Weak mag springs - on FEWER yet - even more rare.

3. ON even fewer - some 75B 40s came with a 9mm slide stop, and it would BUMP the rounds. This is a 30 second fix after CZ sends you the 40 SS.

Some think that the slide stops TEND to get broken because they SEEM to take more abuse in the design. From what I can tell, they last between 10,000 to 30,000 on average, and they are a cheap (free usually) and easy fix. Unlike the block in a Beretta.

And... the above is all rare. Very rare considering the voume on the CZF.

I am NOT a CZ koolade man. I own a few, and am highly critical of CZ NOT offering their excellent PCR and P01 with manual safeties. I also think their triggers are mediocre in general for a $500+ gun compared to SIG, SMITH, etc. [However - this is MORE of a feel thing - it doesn't impede accuracy much at all].

But... they are very reliable, and I have much confidence in their ability to give LONG service, and are frankly easy to fix. I would not listen much to people who arue against their reliability, because I know better.

Failure of frames, barrels, and slide stops

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

I've been on and watching the CZ Forum for YEARS. Here are the problems:

1. Extractor Spring is weak. This happens on a few, and is an EASY shooter fix with a Wolf spring. Again, it happens on SOME guns.

2. Trigger return springs - on VERY few - I happened to break four, but I'm the only one this has happened to, and I STILL believe that they are VERY reliable guns. (I believe that this was mainly a problem with SOME 2003 guns). Its also why I get MANUAL safety guns, because you can detail strip one with a manual safety very easily.

2. Weak mag springs - on FEWER yet - even more rare.

3. ON even fewer - some 75B 40s came with a 9mm slide stop, and it would BUMP the rounds. This is a 30 second fix after CZ sends you the 40 SS.

Some think that the slide stops TEND to get broken because they SEEM to take more abuse in the design. From what I can tell, they last between 10,000 to 30,000 on average, and they are a cheap (free usually) and easy fix. Unlike the block in a Beretta.

And... the above is all rare. Very rare considering the voume on the CZF.

I am NOT a CZ koolade man. I own a few, and am highly critical of CZ NOT offering their excellent PCR and P01 with manual safeties. I also think their triggers are mediocre in general for a $500+ gun compared to SIG, SMITH, etc. [However - this is MORE of a feel thing - it doesn't impede accuracy much at all].

But... they are very reliable, and I have much confidence in their ability to give LONG service, and are frankly easy to fix. I would not listen much to people who arue against their reliability, because I know better.

Failure of frames, barrels, and slide stops

This post pretty much sums it up.

There are some minor problems with the CZ platform detailed above, but I find it extremely hard to believe that a platform that dominates world and European IPSC competitions (in the high powered, hot loaded Open class no less) is somehow less reliable to be a bit laughable.

Something tells the worlds best shooter's wouldnt be using inferior equipment when tenths of seconds is all that separates winners and loosers.

Will a CZ take as much abuse as a Glock? Probably not, but an AR will not take as much abuse as an AK, but I dont see the US army carrying AK's either.

I would maintain that if the CZ is properly maintained it should give thousands of rounds of trouble free shooting.

 

[briang2ad]

I would maintain that if the CZ is properly maintained it should give thousands of rounds of trouble free shooting.

I would add from the anecdotal evidence to be read on the CZ Forum that it will run for tens of thousands of rounds. Some have reported over 100,000 down the pipe.

It MAY be the the SIG/GLOCK style of lockup (at the barrel hood intesection) is more durable than the LUGS on a Browning/CZ/1911 style, but that remains to be seen. There are plenty of 1911s and CZs in competition which would prove otherwise.

Longevity is NOT an issue with CZ. The frame is particularly robust, as is the long rail system - which also lets you do a HIGH hand hold with little chance of rubbing your thumbs on the slide OR the slide stop.

Its just a VERY good design.

And.. if CZ ever perfects the Omega trigger, which shows promise, its line of guns will destroy the competition. Pick up a poly frame SP01 - it feels like a dream. Put locked and cocked on it, and it will be a SMOKER!!!!!!!!!

 

[millertyme]

Nonetheless, if a gun can’t be depended upon to go bang when the trigger is pressed, it’s a paperweight.

Well, since every pistol has been proven to, at one point or another in its lifetime, fail in such a manner isn't most every firearm a paperweight? Maybe someone can show the world one line of firearms that has been 100% reliable so we can all throw our paperweights out and purchase this amazing firearm.

 

[piece of meat]

my experience is this: my ex's dad's M&P 9 would jam up a couple times every range trip. my cz75b has over 1100 rounds so far and has had 0 failures. not 1, or 2, but 0.

 

[armoredman]

millertyme, later in the blog he stated that he had seen only a few 1911s come through his classes that didn't have stoppages, but I didn't see him call all 1911s crap, or say "John Moses Browning is not your friend." I may have missed that blog entry, unknown. No big deal, his school, his rules, his blog, he can say what he wants when he wants, no problem.
And that's OK, like I stated in many places, everyone has thier likes and dislikes, with or without credible evidence or reason. I have my own experiances with CZ and Tanfolgio, without the plethora of issues like he saw. I guess I must have gotten lucky 16 times in a row. Yay for me.
Oh, sorry, gotta go back to my fantasy world now.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

millertyme, later in the blog he stated that he had seen only a few 1911s come through his classes that didn't have stoppages, but I didn't see him call all 1911s crap, or say "John Moses Browning is not your friend." I may have missed that blog entry, unknown. No big deal, his school, his rules, his blog, he can say what he wants when he wants, no problem.
And that's OK, like I stated in many places, everyone has thier likes and dislikes, with or without credible evidence or reason. I have my own experiances with CZ and Tanfolgio, without the plethora of issues like he saw. I guess I must have gotten lucky 16 times in a row. Yay for me.
Oh, sorry, gotta go back to my fantasy world now

Yeah 1911's and the CZ platform sucks, never mind those two platforms have been responsible for more world champions then any other platforms, lol.

http://www.uspsa.org/dw/worldShootWinners.html

 

[armoredman]

It's OK, everyone is entitled to thier opinions, whether or not based on first hand observations, such as I will never buy an HK USP based on watching 5 out of 6 fall apart on the rental range I worked at years ago. I am not a hot shot high speed/low drag anything, so my opinion is worthless to 99.99% of readers, (apparently ), but I know what I saw, and due to that subjective experiance I won't buy an HK USP. Does it mean HK is garbage? Heck no! I would love a vZ70z or a P7, and would drool all over an MP5/10.
My CZ pistols, (not CZ pattern, I STILL want someone to explain how CZ is somehow responsible for Tanfoglio!), work just fine, continue to work just fine, and I am happy with them.

 

[oldfool]

expert pro-trainer blogger could have saved himself a whole lot of typing on the Zed is Dead bit, by merely stating "my woobies are model x,y,z, and your gun sucks"

same old, same old
sad

 

[CZF]

The same $350 CZs that we bought years ago, but have been caught up
with inflation, which means that the $500 SIG from years ago
made in Germany.

Has now been reduced to a $800 gun that's mostly made here.

I also hate the idea that made in Syrmna Glocks cost as much or more
than Austrian made guns.

At least you are getting Old World craftsmanship from the Czech Rep made CZUB brand.

They would probably lose their appeal if made in the States. For me at least.

 

[Justin]

expert pro-trainer blogger could have saved himself a whole lot of typing on the Zed is Dead bit, by merely stating "my woobies are model x,y,z, and your gun sucks"

Todd's website is well worth reading as he's got high round counts through many different kinds of guns. He's not just bloviating on the interwebs.

As for my post (I think you may have confused the title of my blog entry with Todd's), I stated up front that I *like* the CZ design. I genuinely do.

However, liking a gun, and choosing to run a gun in competition doesn't obligate me to turn a blind eye to the shortcomings of the design. In fact, if you were to poll all of the world-class shooters who run CZs, I can pretty well guarantee you they're aware of those shortcomings as well, and practice preventative maintenance to keep those shortcomings from causing problems at a match.

It's amazing to me that someone can point out legitimate, documented issues with a pistol design, and all of a sudden they're castigated as a blind hater who doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[msiley]

I've put 2k rounds though my CZ without cleaning before with zero problems. I've put probably 7-8k rounds through my CZ and have had few issues. In fact with the exception of one bad magazine that had an issue with the feed lips I've had zero malfunctions. I love how this guy takes of sample size of 4 and makes a determination that they are all crap. Maybe he's good at shooting but not statistics. I've had many malfunctions with my Springfield XD and my friend has had problems with his Glock. So maybe I should take those 2 samples and extrapolate that those pistols are worthless? I don't think so.