CZ-pattern guns- Reliability

[LawofThirds]

I've had zero malfunctions out of my CZ 97 B. Then again I've only put 600ish rounds through it. I also polished the feed ramp and made sure the recoil spring, magazine springs and magazines were in good working order.

Basic care is basic. If you ignore it or ignore the need to "break in" a firearm, then yes, expect failures.

 

[CZF]

My new P06 seems reliable as any Glock that I've owned or fired.

 

[dom1104]

Frankly, I am selling off my CZs based a lot on ToddGs experiance, and Justins here on the forum.

I love my CZ SP01, with the SA conversion and the kadet kit. wont be selling that anytime soon, but its just a plinker / steel challenge gun.

Would I subject my CZs to high round counts anytime soon? probably not. Apparently they just cant stand up to it.

Odd, since one of the reasons I bought the P01 was the nato certification, and that was a LOT more rounds.

So I am selling my P01, keeping the SP01 as a light duty comp gun / plinker, and buying a second M&P as a serious HD / carry gun.

And... I really cant say I feel very good about that at all.

I had THOUGHT, that CZs were reliable. That was a big selling point to me. They certainly have been for me, but ToddG and Justin have "Been there, Done That" and their experiances mean a WHOLE lot more than some range time on the weekends that I have done.

 

[LawofThirds]

So...... you let two strangers decide which guns were reliable and right for you based on 4 out of hundreds of thousands of guns produced by a company without any further background investigation? And it's not like they're pointing to a specific point and saying "this is badly designed/poor materials/etc". They're saying "we saw 4 that didn't work. We don't know how they were maintained or kept previous to this experience". Based off that, all Glocks explode, all 1911's are either innaccurate or jammamatics, all Kahrs have feeding issues....

Sorry, but until I see a gun fail for myself or am shown clear empirical evidence that the design or manufacturing process is flawed, I will continue to use said firearm.

 

[Impureclient]

I can't remember where I read it but I recall that Todd is a Glock , Sig, HK and some other manufacturer armorer. Obviously it wasn't CZ though.
It's been said before and I'd have to agree, it seems that there is some kind of ulterior motive behind his bashing the CZs.
Sometimes even in here there are a few people who seem to trash one particular brand and babble on about some other manufacturer.
I can see brand loyalty but some people take it too far unless I guess their livelihood depends on it. One guy in particular I remember kept trashing
Kahr in numerous threads on here and would go on and on about Glock like his paycheck depended upon it. Maybe Todd just needs a free gun from CZ to play
with to grease his wheels.

I don't ever recall hearing about CZs having explosion problems like Glocks do. No where on his site does he mention about that.
Maybe that would hurt his wallet in some way that would make him just keep quiet on that issue. I trust his word about as much as
I trust the people complaining about their custom 1911 having problems after it was dissected and manhandled by a "professional" gunsmith.

The guns Todd seems to like are loose fitting and not as accurate as a CZ is. Maybe they can be buried in sand and dropped from a plane,
and not cleaned as they should be but I'd rather just have a untrashed gun that is inherently more accurate when it's cleaned properly. I only have four
guns so it isn't bother to clean them often. In fact they all look as new as the day I bought them. I don't intend on living in a hole in the desert with
no cleaning supplies. If I ever do though, a Glock is definitely the first thing on my shopping list.

Also , when the day come that somebody makes a gun that has zero malfunctions I dare not buy it because it was probably made by a contract with the
devil himself. If it was made by man it will eventually fail at some point. All machines will fail eventually and guns are no exception.

 

[dom1104]

So,what you are saying is...disregard anyone who has more experience and time with a certain item... and only believe my own experience?

No...I think not.

I think certain people are to be trusted as experts, and those with less experience are wise to listen to what they say.

My CZs have, a 5 year warrenty.

My new M&P has a lifetime warrenty, and then ANOTHER lifetime warrenty from Davidsons.

I ... think there might be a reason for that. I am definatly leaning to putting the most of my rounds thru the american gun, and keeping the CZ as a limited use, but still enjoyable item.

 

[dom1104]

The other that that always did bother me, is that CZ always touts "CZ 75 B is used by more Governments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world. The CZ 75 is quite possibly the perfect pistol."

I always... sort of doubted that. I am really not sure that is true at all.

So the question is, if the CZ is NOT the worlds most populous pistol, then are those tests the P01 went thru fabricated as well?

Does CZUB suffer from .. enthusiasm? Perhaps overstating the realibility... when multiple people have come out saying "Yeah you know, couldnt make it work for me in competition."

I dunno, I have doubts now. I do.

 

[briang2ad]

Doubters just need to spend 5 years reading threads on the CZ Forum, then come back. This is dumb.

I don't shill for CZ. I think they've done some dumb things, but they make a great pistol.

 

[Guns and more]

All I can say is that I own two CZ's and neither has ever failed to cycle and fire.

 

[Zundfolge]

...CZ always touts "CZ 75 B is used by more Governments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world. The CZ 75 is quite possibly the perfect pistol."

Considering the fact that most of the worlds governments (and frankly now the US) are not true free market capitalist but instead are systems based on Crony Capitalism (which is Fascism without all the military parades and death camps), government acquisition of any product probably has little to do with quality or reliability and more to do with the fact that the president of CZ has paid the right politicians and otherwise scratched the right backs (or you could always replace that with a less high road analogy).

That said, I like my CZ too but frankly don't have enough rounds through it to tell you whether its reliable or not (haven't had it long).

 

[armoredman]

Taurus has a lifetime guarentee...if you can get them to fix it. Ruger has NO warantee at all...but they stand behind thier product. HiPoint has an unconditional lifetime warantee, and they stand behind thier guns. So, based on the warantee aspect alone, yep, HiPoint is the way to go! CZ will take care of guns, sometimes after warantee, call and ask if you have an issue.
Dom, I listened, and I heard bias. When the expert bashed 1911s in the same thread as being unreliable, I heard no commotion whatsoever, but once again, as I have said before, it's OK, bash what you want. I won't own a Glock, more of them have failed IN MY HAND than any CZ product, or Ruger or Smith products, for that matter, but I didn't proclaim all Glock owners idiots for depending on them, I knew the examples I saw were statistically impossible to represent the entire line. I watched HKs vaunted USP fail dramatically, and an entire city police deprtment agreed, but I didn't fire up a blog calling HK, "crap". I think HK has some incredibly fine firearms.
So, call me fan boy, call me a shill, call me anything but late to dinner, , I like my CZ pistols, and they work just fine for me.

 

[dom1104]

Taurus has a lifetime guarentee...if you can get them to fix it. Ruger has NO warantee at all...but they stand behind thier product. HiPoint has an unconditional lifetime warantee, and they stand behind thier guns. So, based on the warantee aspect alone, yep, HiPoint is the way to go! CZ will take care of guns, sometimes after warantee, call and ask if you have an issue.
Dom, I listened, and I heard bias. When the expert bashed 1911s in the same thread as being unreliable, I heard no commotion whatsoever, but once again, as I have said before, it's OK, bash what you want. I won't own a Glock, more of them have failed IN MY HAND than any CZ product, or Ruger or Smith products, for that matter, but I didn't proclaim all Glock owners idiots for depending on them, I knew the examples I saw were statistically impossible to represent the entire line. I watched HKs vaunted USP fail dramatically, and an entire city police deprtment agreed, but I didn't fire up a blog calling HK, "crap". I think HK has some incredibly fine firearms.
So, call me fan boy, call me a shill, call me anything but late to dinner, , I like my CZ pistols, and they work just fine for me.

Well I dont think anyone is a shill for the record.

Just trying to figure out what will work for me long term.

 

[1SOW]

armoredman: Me too.

 

[Pilot]

I own all the hyped, overpriced, but still high quality pistols. Sig, HK, Beretta, Browning, Walther, Colt, etc. I really, really like them all, but the CZ is my favorite. Well, maybe after my Colt O1918 WWI Repro, but that is not a carry gun. My PCR and 75B plus Kadet Kit would be the last I would sell.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

So,what you are saying is...disregard anyone who has more experience and time with a certain item...

And what if this person with all this "expeirance" is totally biased for monetary or other reasons?"

Persoally, I like to do my own thinking and make my own decisions.

That is not to say I wont hear out an opposing view, but to just blindly do something because some "expert" who may have an ulterior motive say so, well whatever.

I bought a used glock 17 based on reputation. Guess what, the stupd thing wouldnt go thru a single mag without a jam.

Paid $60 to send it back to glock for repair, they said it was fine and shipped back. It would still not make it through a mag without jamming. I sold it.

But do you see me running around bashing glocks? No, I see far to many glocks at my USPSA club to know they are good guns.

If the open class IPSC world champion for the last 10 years shoots a tanfoglio and 2 out of the 3 world champion production division matches were won by a SP-01 shooter (Adam Tyc), that alone should tell you something.

Those are high volume shooters.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The CZ is almost completely absent in U.S. shooting sports.

Lol.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

The other that that always did bother me, is that CZ always touts "CZ 75 B is used by more Governments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world. The CZ 75 is quite possibly the perfect pistol."

I always... sort of doubted that. I am really not sure that is true at all.

So the question is, if the CZ is NOT the worlds most populous pistol, then are those tests the P01 went thru fabricated as well?

Does CZUB suffer from .. enthusiasm? Perhaps overstating the realibility... when multiple people have come out saying "Yeah you know, couldnt make it work for me in competition."

I dunno, I have doubts now. I do.

You do realize how many CZ and CZ clones there are out there?

Lets see here

The CZ 75 was and is cloned or its design was and is used by several manufacturers of semi-automatic pistols.

ArmaLite AR-24
Armscor MAP1 & MAPP1
Bren Ten
BUL Cherokee
Canik55 Piranha, Shark
Dornaus and Dixon Bren Ten
EAA Witness Elite Gold
FAMAE FN-750
IMI Jericho 941
ITM AT-84 and AT-88
JSL(Hereford) Ltd Spitfire
Magnum Research Baby Eagle
Military Industry Corporation Marra and Lado
Norinco NZ-75
Renato Gamba G90
Sarsilmaz M2000
Sphinx Systems Sphinx 2000 and Sphinx 3000
Springfield P9
Tanfoglio TZ-75, T-90 and T-95
Vltor Bren Ten

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

As far as military usage, I know for a fact that

Czechs
Turks
Israelis
Danes
Norway
Swiss
singapore
malasyia
Colombian National Police
Investigations Police of Chile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_Systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_941

The turkish version is NATO certified

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg224-e.htm

The P-01 is now a NATO classified pistol and issued the NATO stock number NSN 1005-16-000-8619.

http://cz-usa.com/press-releases/102/

 

[armoredman]

The NATo stock number isn't really a big thing, but it's kindof neat. What is interesting is the Phillipene National Police Force switching to the P07.

 

[Justin]

I had THOUGHT, that CZs were reliable. That was a big selling point to me. They certainly have been for me, but ToddG and Justin have "Been there, Done That" and their experiances mean a WHOLE lot more than some range time on the weekends that I have done.

I'm not telling anyone to sell their gun. All I'm doing is reporting my experience from shooting a CZ over the course of a few years at regular matches. After many thousands of rounds (though not as many as some, and certainly much fewer than I like) certain issues came to light with my CZ.

I've also had some issues with a CZ75 compact, but the round count is too low to really make a fair determination about the pistol.

Is that a reason to dump the gun? Not necessarily if those problems can be corrected. Except for the chambers being cut short, all of the issues I've had with my gun have been correctable. After the rear adjustable sight failed, I replaced it. To fix the issue with premature slide-lock, I modified the slide stop and changed followers in my primary magazines.

If you have a CZ, it might be worth taking a look at those things and deciding whether it's worth it to engage in some pre-emptive corrective action.

And what if this person with all this "expeirance" is totally biased for monetary or other reasons?"

That's kind of hilarious. I have yet to have a pistol manufacturer offer to sponsor me for anything.

In the interest of full disclosure, I did win a S&W M&P Pro at a Steel Challenge match last year, and MKS Supply is providing me with a Hi-Point C-9 for testing and blog fodder, but I'm not about to go around recommending a pistol that I've had less than 300 rounds through in the case of the first, and have yet to even pick up from my FFL in the case of the second.

Persoally, I like to do my own thinking and make my own decisions.

As do I, and in having run a CZ under competitive conditions, there are certain things about the design that I find lacking, as I've already pointed out. Other people may not have those issues.

However, in this case, these issues have been documented on Todd G.'s blog, my blog (FWIW), and also at the CZ Forums.

That is not to say I wont hear out an opposing view, but to just blindly do something because some "expert" who may have an ulterior motive say so, well whatever.

I know too many people who are far, far better than I am to try to claim to be an expert. More like an eternal student. That said, people are free to read my blog, or not. They're free to believe or reject what I say, it doesn't really make any difference to me.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

The NATo stock number isn't really a big thing, but it's kindof neat. What is interesting is the Phillipene National Police Force switching to the P07.

Actually I view surviving a NATO test as a better indicator of a quality pistol then who uses it.

Goverments handout contracts for all kinds of reasons, the best product at the lowest price, doesnt always determine the winner.

Look at the pork in congress

Especially in countries with historys of bribery of goverment officials. In some countries its almost a requirement to do business.

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

That's kind of hilarious. I have yet to have a pistol manufacturer offer to sponsor me for anything

I wasnt talking about you, I was talking about the intial blog on the other website.

Someone stated in another post in this thread that he was a armorer for another make of handgun.

All I am saying is the people should base their decisions on their own experiances and people they can trust 100%.

Its my experiance that alot of what is read on the internet is bogus, there isnt whole lot of fact checking.

I admit teh CZ design is far from perfect, but I have fired thousands of rounds through mine and the only problems were weak mag springs and a single broken trigger return spring.

Lol, I put about 200 rounds thru my M&P pro and the front sight just fell off. Its at smith and wesson as i type this.

I had a glock which would stovepipe constantly, sent it back to glock and they stated everything was fine, it still stovepiped constantly.

No man made product is perfect, if you dont like CZ's, thats fine, I am just glad we have so many choices.

But that intial blog post on the other site sounded more like CZ bash fest then anything objective.

If the CZ design is outdated, it will eventually fade on its own

 

[167]

By ToddG in case you guys aren't keeping up with his stuff.

And noteworthy for all of pistol-training.com‘s new CZ-owning fans, the one student in class running a CZ (a Shadow) had zero stoppages the entire class. I promised him I’d mention it… and the fact that he didn’t even clean the gun during the two day 1,000+ round class.

 

[atblis]

I've noted that CZ's quality control is quite bit variable. They tend to make a few more monday/friday guns than let's say SIG/HK/Glock etc. Sig seems to be catching up though. That would account for the disparity in opinions regarding CZs..

 

[tekarra]

atblis,
What is the basis of your statement? Do you have statistical evidence?

 

[armoredman]

That's an interesting statement. The only company I know that has Monday/Friday guns is Century Arms International. Ok, they have Mon/Tues/Thurs/Fri guns, actually, anything made on Wednesday is PERFECT! I have not noted this from CZ, in 10 CZ made firearms, I must just be really lucky.

167, no, I have not looked at that particular blog since comments were locked on the original blog post that caused the consternation. Thank you for the update.