Data requests

[drband]

Get at least 2 sources from known reliable books or company websites.

The internet is a help IF you use it responsibly.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Reason I use this as an example is because I got involved in a discussion of this exact bullet. Looking at my 2 examples of 230grn plated Speer bullets, the CPRN bullet, and the TMJ RN bullet: Because I'm familiar with the Unique data, that's what I'll reference, but there are differences in most of the data, including Bullseye. Speer specifically offers data for the TMJ bullet but not the CPRN bullet, either online (I just checked) or in the #14. Using Alliant data, max load for the TMJ is 6.5grn Unique, all else being equal, including OAL, max load for the CPRN is a hefty 7.3grn. Even back in my Early Days I never went that high with any 230grn bullet, and I wouldn't do so now. I've gone as high as 6.9grn Unique, which was max in the Speer #11, and that was more than plenty. Alliant thought the CPRN bullet different enough to develop it's own data... to wit:

The TMJ is quite good quality, with a heavy copper coating. The CP bullets are a thinner plate designed for budget minded shooters. You should not expect the same performance from the two lines. We worked up load data for the CPRN/CPFP separately, which we felt was appropriate.

...that from Alliant Reloading's post, 1JUL21 here at THR.

For Bullseye & plated/jacketed/lead 230RN there is much overlap if not actual duplication of load data among Alliant, Speer, Lee, etc. But, Lyman’s (which I saw for the first time yesterday) is a real outlier on the low side. Just an observation.

edit for clarification: I meant I saw Lyman’s Bullseye 45ACP data for the first time, not that I saw Lyman’s.

 

[LiveLife]

I am dabbling into baking cookies in retirement so is that salted or unsalted butter? And are eggs room temperature or refrigerator temperature? Dang, I am craving rice crispy treats now ... with or without vanilla extract.

Get your own cookbook. I'm not sharing information from mine on an internet message forum - especially seeing as how with a minimal amount of effort you can probably find it online at a flour company's website.

I am actually glad you posted that. While it wasn't my intent originally, it worked out well to correlate to this thread discussion.

You see, I actually have several hardbound cookbooks along with ready access to internet recipes which I have been looking at closely and used for retirement. BUT it's too many recipes and I am lost in a sea of recipes as they all seem to have similar ingredients with slight variations (And 4 to 4.5 star ratings don't help much because they all have them!). So which are actually "better recipes" than others? And which is the "best recipe"?

You see, I think the same goes for reloading ... And that maybe what members are asking for when they request "data" or "recipes" because there is sheer volume of load data everywhere but how can one tell which is better or best?

Answers to those questions are in the recipe

But the recipes and even thick cookbooks don't clearly explain the precise details of subtleties of certain recipes and why. That only comes from actual baking experience ... Otherwise, everyone who buys Gordon Ramsay's cookbook will cook like a Michelin star chef ... Right?

There are reasons why you can't use All Purpose flour in all recipes when they call for Cake flour or Bread flour. You can't substitute baking powder with baking soda. When you need to use unsalted butter, using salted butter won't do. And my personal preference for baking cookies ... (Like loading 9mm 115 gr FMJ/RN short to 1.110" OAL to maximize neck tension and squeeze out a bit more accuracy from each round ... The "Why" part) ... Is to use browned butter to remove water (Yup, there's water in butter) and to add a bit more nutty flavor to each cookie so my wife will give me that "look" and go, "Mmmmm" ... And you won't find that simply by looking at cookbooks/online recipes ... And Atlanta Arms won't explain why their Elite Match AMU 9mm 115 gr FMJ OAL went shorter from 1.130" to 1.110" in recent years which I noticed (Maybe their range testing "revealed" the same as my range tests? And no, you won't find that bit of information in reloading books either ) - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html

Have you tried some of the online cooking recipes??? A lot are horrible concoctions of expensive ingredients!

Yes I have with many recipes being awful to where I am now "tweaking" ingredients to come up with my own cookie recipes that wife and I enjoy (Like substituting sugar with apple sauce, using mixture of white/brown sugars, and NOT substituting walnut for pecan ).

And in similar manner, just because a powder/bullet combo was chamber pressure tested at a particular OAL (Depending on leade length of test barrel) to SAAMI max average pressures that worked in a single action universal barrel fixture to be "published" as load data, it doesn't mean loads will be the most accurate or feed reliably from YOUR pistols/barrels/magazines actually used.

So to ensure reliability of function in our magazine fed semi-auto firearms and to optimize accuracy, we "tweak" the reloading variables a bit to arrive at Working OAL before conducting powder work up (Or down for some faster powders) and incrementally decrease OAL by .005" (If not at max charge) to squeeze out a bit more accuracy while sweating the details like taper crimp amount (or not at all) and what factors produce bullet setback (or no bullet setback) like case wall thickness by headstamp, bullet sizing by brand/manufacture, other reloading variables overshadowing like powder used for 100% case fill vs one that creates an air gap in front of flash hole when round is slammed into chamber to produce "powder forward" condition before powder ignition, etc.

IMHO, that's why members request reloading "data" ... ones that are based on our lifetime of reloading and shooting experience that some of us pursued with a passion while tweaking reloading variables. Kinda like sharing favorite cookie recipes we tweaked.

And in the "High Road" fashion, I will gladly share that information with other members (With disclaimers when required by THR forum rules) as I consider that "Paying It Forward", not just in stuff/money but in priceless knowledge and wisdom (BTW, wisdom comes from having knowledge AND experience ... How to make sense of all the data into information ... When to use that information ... And experience comes from making mistakes. )

And simply telling members to "Go get yourself a book and read it and you will become a Michelin star chef" ... is not "High Road" IMO.

Just as my numerous mentors who generously and freely took me "under their wings" and shared their lifetime experience and infused me with their wisdom; THR should be a place where we take other members "under our wings" to openly share our lifetime experience and infuse our wisdom into them so they can propagate (Pay It Forward) the "High Road" notion to the next generation of reloaders, some of whom may pursue reloading with a passion.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I am actually glad you posted that. While it wasn't my intent originally, it worked out well to correlate to this thread discussion.

You see, I actually have several hardbound cookbooks along with ready access to internet recipes which I have been looking at closely and used for retirement. BUT it's too many recipes and I am lost in a sea of recipes as they all seem to have similar ingredients with slight variations (And 4 to 4.5 star ratings don't help much because they all have them!). So which are actually "better recipes" than others? And which is the "best recipe"?

You see, I think the same goes for reloading ... And that maybe what members are asking for when they request "data" or "recipes" because there is sheer volume of load data everywhere but how can one tell which is better or best?


But the recipes and even thick cookbooks don't clearly explain the precise details of subtleties of certain recipes and why. That only comes from actual baking experience ... Otherwise, everyone who buys Gordon Ramsay's cookbook will cook like a Michelin star chef ... Right?

There are reasons why you can't use All Purpose flour in all recipes when they call for Cake flour or Bread flour. You can't substitute baking powder with baking soda. When you need to use unsalted butter, using salted butter won't do. And my personal preference for baking cookies ... (Like loading 9mm 115 gr FMJ/RN short to 1.110" OAL to maximize neck tension and squeeze out a bit more accuracy from each round ... The "Why" part) ... Is to use browned butter to remove water (Yup, there's water in butter) and to add a bit more nutty flavor to each cookie so your wife will give you that "look" and go, "Mmmmm" ... And you won't find that simply by looking at cookbooks/online recipes ... And Atlanta Arms won't explain why their Elite Match AMU 9mm 115 gr FMJ OAL went shorter from 1.130" to 1.110" in recent years which I noticed (Maybe their range testing "revealed" the same as my range tests? ) - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html


Yes I have with many recipes being awful to where I am now "tweaking" ingredients to come up with my own cookie recipes that wife and I enjoy (Like substituting sugar with apple sauce, using mixture of white/brown sugars, and NOT substituting walnut for pecan ).

And in similar manner, just because a powder/bullet combo was chamber pressure tested at a particular OAL to SAAMI max average pressures that worked in single action universal barrel fixture, it doesn't mean it will be the most accurate load or feed reliably from YOUR pistol/barrel/magazine.

So to ensure reliability of function in our magazine fed semi-auto firearms and to optimize accuracy, we "tweak" the reloading variables a bit to arrive at Working OAL before conducting powder work up (Or down for faster powders) and incrementally decrease OAL by .005" (If not at max charge) to squeeze out a bit more accuracy while sweating the details like taper crimp amount (or not at all) and what factors produce bullet setback (or no bullet setback) like case wall thickness by headstamp, bullet sizing by brand/manufacture, other reloading variables overshadowing like powder used for 100% case fill vs one that creates an air gap in front of flash hole, etc.

IMHO, that's why members request reloading "data" ... ones that are based on our lifetime of reloading and shooting experience that some of us pursue with a passion, not just cost savings.

And in the "High Road" fashion, I will gladly share that information with other members (With disclaimers when required) as I consider that "Paying It Forward", not just in stuff/money but in priceless knowledge and wisdom as promised to rcmodel and Bikerdoc before their passing (BTW, wisdom comes from having knowledge AND experience ... How to make sense of all the data into information ... When to use that information ... And experience comes from making mistakes. )

And simply telling members to "Go get yourself a book and read it and you will become a Michelin star chef" ... is not "High Road".

Just as my numerous mentors who generously and freely took me "under their wings" and shared their lifetime experience and infused me with their wisdom; THR should be a place where we take other members "under our wings" to openly share our lifetime experience and infuse our wisdom into them so they can propagate (Pay It Forward) the "High Road" notion to the next generation of reloaders, some of whom may pursue reloading with a passion.

My wife’s been collecting cookbooks her entire adult life (since she left home to go to the FBI at 17). We still have them all in our pantry (see picture of some, below). And, I’ve been eating my whole life. That combined experience tells me you can keep Gordon Ramsay’s or most any current phenom’s recipes and go old school with Betty Crocker. Ole Betty’s recipes and techniques are quite different in the way they are presented than are today’s. I’ve learned a thing or two myself along the way.

We’ve been married for 44 years and every 5 years go to Patrick O’Connell’s Inn at Little Washington and sit in the kitchen (and long before Michelin chefs permitted the unwashed into their kitchens). He’s happy to talk to my wife about his recipes and techniques, but largely because she has done a ton of homework. It’s a sign of respect from both parties.

So absolutely, THR folks should help newbies, but so should newbies. It’s a sign of respect from both parties.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I don’t own a chrono and since I don’t load using unpublished data, don’t need one. I only load to shoot common stuff anyway and not to experiment that precisely.

But as for danger signs, I use as reference things I’ve seen in the internet.

I am actually glad you posted that. While it wasn't my intent originally, it worked out well to correlate to this thread discussion.

You see, I actually have several hardbound cookbooks along with ready access to internet recipes which I have been looking at closely and used for retirement. BUT it's too many recipes and I am lost in a sea of recipes as they all seem to have similar ingredients with slight variations (And 4 to 4.5 star ratings don't help much because they all have them!). So which are actually "better recipes" than others? And which is the "best recipe"?

You see, I think the same goes for reloading ... And that maybe what members are asking for when they request "data" or "recipes" because there is sheer volume of load data everywhere but how can one tell which is better or best?


But the recipes and even thick cookbooks don't clearly explain the precise details of subtleties of certain recipes and why. That only comes from actual baking experience ... Otherwise, everyone who buys Gordon Ramsay's cookbook will cook like a Michelin star chef ... Right?

There are reasons why you can't use All Purpose flour in all recipes when they call for Cake flour or Bread flour. You can't substitute baking powder with baking soda. When you need to use unsalted butter, using salted butter won't do. And my personal preference for baking cookies ... (Like loading 9mm 115 gr FMJ/RN short to 1.110" OAL to maximize neck tension and squeeze out a bit more accuracy from each round ... The "Why" part) ... Is to use browned butter to remove water (Yup, there's water in butter) and to add a bit more nutty flavor to each cookie so my wife will give me that "look" and go, "Mmmmm" ... And you won't find that simply by looking at cookbooks/online recipes ... And Atlanta Arms won't explain why their Elite Match AMU 9mm 115 gr FMJ OAL went shorter from 1.130" to 1.110" in recent years which I noticed (Maybe their range testing "revealed" the same as my range tests? And no, you won't find that bit of information in reloading books either ) - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html


Yes I have with many recipes being awful to where I am now "tweaking" ingredients to come up with my own cookie recipes that wife and I enjoy (Like substituting sugar with apple sauce, using mixture of white/brown sugars, and NOT substituting walnut for pecan ).

And in similar manner, just because a powder/bullet combo was chamber pressure tested at a particular OAL (Depending on leade length of test barrel) to SAAMI max average pressures that worked in a asingle action universal barrel fixture to be "published" as load data, it doesn't mean loads will be the most accurate or feed reliably from YOUR pistols/barrels/magazines actually used.

So to ensure reliability of function in our magazine fed semi-auto firearms and to optimize accuracy, we "tweak" the reloading variables a bit to arrive at Working OAL before conducting powder work up (Or down for some faster powders) and incrementally decrease OAL by .005" (If not at max charge) to squeeze out a bit more accuracy while sweating the details like taper crimp amount (or not at all) and what factors produce bullet setback (or no bullet setback) like case wall thickness by headstamp, bullet sizing by brand/manufacture, other reloading variables overshadowing like powder used for 100% case fill vs one that creates an air gap in front of flash hole when round is slammed into chamber to produce "powder forward" condition before powder ignition, etc.

IMHO, that's why members request reloading "data" ... ones that are based on our lifetime of reloading and shooting experience that some of us pursued with a passion while tweaking reloading variables. Kinda like sharing favorite cookie recipes we tweaked.

And in the "High Road" fashion, I will gladly share that information with other members (With disclaimers when required by THR forum rules) as I consider that "Paying It Forward", not just in stuff/money but in priceless knowledge and wisdom as promised to rcmodel and Bikerdoc before their passing (BTW, wisdom comes from having knowledge AND experience ... How to make sense of all the data into information ... When to use that information ... And experience comes from making mistakes. )

And simply telling members to "Go get yourself a book and read it and you will become a Michelin star chef" ... is not "High Road" IMO.

Just as my numerous mentors who generously and freely took me "under their wings" and shared their lifetime experience and infused me with their wisdom; THR should be a place where we take other members "under our wings" to openly share our lifetime experience and infuse our wisdom into them so they can propagate (Pay It Forward) the "High Road" notion to the next generation of reloaders, some of whom may pursue reloading with a passion.

You guys can write some of the longest reply's!!!! wish we had updated emoji here

 

[ballman6711]

For Bullseye & plated/jacketed/lead 230RN there is much overlap if not actual duplication of load data among Alliant, Speer, Lee, etc. But, Lyman’s (which I saw for the first time yesterday) is a real outlier on the low side. Just an observation.

edit for clarification: I meant I saw Lyman’s Bullseye 45ACP data for the first time, not that I saw Lyman’s.

Some of the data in that book is higher than other places I look. At least for what I load. That's why I like to reference a few different sources before I make a decision on how to proceed.

Be sure to let us know how those loads work for you, both function and accuracy wise.

chris

 

[CQB45ACP]

Some of the data in that book is higher than other places I look. At least for what I load. That's why I like to reference a few different sources before I make a decision on how to proceed.

Be sure to let us know how those loads work for you, both function and accuracy wise.

chris

I’ll do that. Accuracy? I’ve got 70 y/o hands & eyes, what’s accuracy?

 

[Howa 9700]

I get the point about manuals, and have several manuals and books, and have learned something from all of them. But if manuals and books were the end all, what would be the point of THR? Having access to the experience found here is priceless.......yet free.

Examples of why to ask questions is what to do when one manuals start load is nearly the same as another's max. I have found such.

And if someone where to ask a question about the now defunct IMR4955..........I'd be able to tell them to walk away. I ran into pressure 3 or 4 grains short of a max load, and doubt that even with compressing the load, could pack all that powder into a case and under a bullet and gun would likely blow up if I did.......and that WAS a published load in a load manual.

I've ran into enough similar situations, I've often wondered if those loads had ever been loaded and tested, or if they were the result of calculations on paper. Good to be able to ask others if they have seen or found the same thing.

 

[Charlie98]

And simply telling members to "Go get yourself a book and read it and you will become a Michelin star chef" ... is not "High Road" IMO.

+1 Sometimes there is more to it than just numbers in the book.

 

[LiveLife]

Accuracy? I’ve got 70 y/o hands & eyes, what’s accuracy?

Few years back before I retired, I taught defensive point shooting to several retired couples in their late 60s with arthritis and shaky hands who were avid hunters. I told them not to worry as I taught hundreds of people, including those with shaky hands and vision issues.

They were surprised when I trained them to point shoot with eyes closed and they produced around 4"-6" groups at 5-7 yards. They were shocked when their wives shot even faster producing smaller groups and fast double taps - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-her-first-time-today.908729/#post-12369077

My accuracy? Double tap I demonstrated to wife's sister is two holes at top right edge of target on the right in this thread using RMR 115 gr FMJ and Promo powder (POI same as POA) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...shooting-for-those-with-vision-issues.891558/

 

[LiveLife]

BTW, member CQB45ACP gave me the OK to share portions of our PMs:

working up loads by adding a tenth of a grain here or two tenths there or subtracting that amount but never shortening or lengthening the COL by this or amount or that amount. Why not?

I do and post it all the time on THR.

And instead of adjusting the COL/OAL longer/shorter, my process is: Max OAL > Working OAL > Conservative load data for initial powder work up > Determine charge that produces smallest groups > If not at max charge, incrementally decrease COL/OAL.

1. Determine Max OAL using barrel "Plunk Test"
2. Feed dummy round from magazine to determine Working OAL
3. Reference all available load data for initial powder work up and if Working OAL is shorter than published OAL, reduce start/max charges by .2-.3 gr
4. During initial and subsequent powder work up, identify the charge that produces smallest average groups
5. If not at max charge, incrementally decrease OAL by .005" to see if group size decreases
6. If yes, use shorter OAL. If not, use longer OAL.

Has anyone determined an equivalency (for example) between adding a tenth of a grain of Bullseye to a 5.0gr load vs. decreasing the COL by X amount?

.1 grain increase = a .01” decrease ... Does this make any sense at all?

I would not correlate such relationship as I lack laboratory pressure measuring devices (German Salazar used chamber pressure gauge for his 1000 yard Palma load development ... Be patient, archive pages load slow) - https://web.archive.org/web/2015030...ansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html

Instead of inventing a new wheel or reinventing the wheel, what I outlined above regarding powder work up vs incrementally decreasing OAL is what precision benchrest/1000 yard Palma match shooters use ... So I simply follow their lead.

I have 16 loaded 45ACP cartridges with 4.9gr of Bullseye & 230gr RN plated bullets ... But since I have not found that load published by a reputable, verifiable source I haven’t tried them.

I have successfully used lead load data for regular plated bullets.

If you are not sure about 4.9 gr of Bullseye under 230 gr RN plated bullets, consider this from 2004 Alliant "published" load data - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?resources/2004-alliant-load-data.18/

• 45ACP 230 gr Lead [RN] (Target load) Bullseye OAL 1.190" Max 4.0 gr (810 fps)
• 45ACP 230 gr FMC (Full Metal Case) Bullseye OAL 1.190" Max 5.0 gr (905 fps)

So you should be fine referencing this "published" load data in using 4.0 gr as it's lighter "target load" charge but I guess you could do 10% reduction and start at 3.6 gr for your powder work up and test 3.6, 3.8, 4.0 gr.

BTW, here's Speer load data for TMJ which is a thick plated RN for your reference (And both Alliant powder and Speer are owned by Vista Outdoor, formally Alliant Tech Systems) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/45_Automatic_230_TMJ_RN.pdf

• 45ACP 230 gr TMJ RN Bullseye COL 1.260" Start 5.2 gr (849 fps) - Max 5.7 gr (914 fps)

So if you are using shorter OAL around 1.190" with your plated RN (Highly unlikely), reference more conservative lead "target" load data. If you are using longer OAL around 1.240"-1.260", I would reference next conservative load data and test 4.1, 4.3, 4.5 gr.

And if you are using jacketed or thick plated TMJ bullet (That could be pushed to jacketed load data) loaded longer at 1.260", I would reference Speer load data.

BTW, here's a comparison of factory 230 gr FMJ OAL compared to Berry's plated RN OAL

Maybe this will help.

SAAMI establishes maximum pressure "averages" for each caliber that is "safe" for said cartridge construction to contain pressures before case rupture occurs (I think they do this by destructive testing).

When ballisticians conduct pressure testing for bullet/powder manufacturers and handbook publishers like Lyman, they measure chamber pressure curve (Like dyno testing for engine HP/Torque) upto SAAMI average max.

I say "average" as depending on powder lot/type/burn rate, pressure curve generated is not always linear and could become more "erratic" towards SAAMI max. And that's why you will sometimes find load data max pressure that is lower than SAAMI max for that caliber.

And published COL/OAL is dependent on particular test barrel leade length and bullet nose profile (ogive) used for that testing. (They don't actually use a firearm, rather often a universal barrel fixture that is single action)

That is why reloaders must first determine the Max OAL that will be the longest that will pass the barrel and then determine the Working OAL that will reliably feed/chamber from the magazine, since most of our firearms use magazines (fixed internal/external or detachable external).

Once we determine the longest Working OAL, we can then conduct our powder work up to initially determine the charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject spent cases. And we determine this start charge by referencing all available load data.

And since pressure is related to OAL (Actually bullet seating depth) as shown by chart below, note that small change in OAL reduction can affect pressure increase. Zip has similar burn rate as W231/HP-38 and reduction by .010" OAL increased pressure by around 1000 PSI.

So when Working OAL is shorter than published length, I typically reduce start/max charges by .2-.3 based on 30 years of load development and chrono data and this usually worked for most popular pistol powders from Bullseye to WSF/BE-86. (If Working OAL is significantly shorter, I will even use .4+ gr less until slide barely cycles so I know I reached the absolute bottom)

Now, if start charge reliably cycles the slide, extract/ejects spent cases and produces accuracy, I will actually "work down" in .1-.2 gr increments to do "powder work down" to identify lighter "target" load until slide stops cycling and/or accuracy goes away. This is what bullseye match shooters do and they will even use lighter rate recoil springs to cycle the slide.

So, let's say your Working OAL for a particular 9mm 115/124 gr RN is 1.150" and you identified a powder charge that produced smallest average groups based on repeated range tests (I always verify my accuracy/groups with repeated range trips). If you are not at max charge (Meaning not at SAAMI max pressure), I will then incrementally decrease OAL by .005" (Remember the OAL/pressure chart?) and see if my groups decrease in size.

Let's say 1.130"/1.135" OALs produced smallest groups for 115/124 gr RN bullets, then I will use shorter OAL as long as shorter OAL will reliably feed/chamber from the magazine. But if there is no improvement in group size, or if group size increases, I will use longer 1.150". (Usually, because 9mm 115/124 gr RN bullets have shorter bullet base, shorter OAL will improve group size. Atlanta Arms which provides match ammunition for US AMU/Marine match teams used to load 115 gr FMJ load to 1.130 but in recent years decreased to 1.110" and my testing, particularly from neck tension/bullet setback myth busting thread showed reduction from 1.130" to 1.110" decreased group size)

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I am actually glad you posted that. While it wasn't my intent originally, it worked out well to correlate to this thread discussion.

You see, I actually have several hardbound cookbooks along with ready access to internet recipes which I have been looking at closely and used for retirement. BUT it's too many recipes and I am lost in a sea of recipes as they all seem to have similar ingredients with slight variations (And 4 to 4.5 star ratings don't help much because they all have them!). So which are actually "better recipes" than others? And which is the "best recipe"?

You see, I think the same goes for reloading ... And that maybe what members are asking for when they request "data" or "recipes" because there is sheer volume of load data everywhere but how can one tell which is better or best?


But the recipes and even thick cookbooks don't clearly explain the precise details of subtleties of certain recipes and why. That only comes from actual baking experience ... Otherwise, everyone who buys Gordon Ramsay's cookbook will cook like a Michelin star chef ... Right?

There are reasons why you can't use All Purpose flour in all recipes when they call for Cake flour or Bread flour. You can't substitute baking powder with baking soda. When you need to use unsalted butter, using salted butter won't do. And my personal preference for baking cookies ... (Like loading 9mm 115 gr FMJ/RN short to 1.110" OAL to maximize neck tension and squeeze out a bit more accuracy from each round ... The "Why" part) ... Is to use browned butter to remove water (Yup, there's water in butter) and to add a bit more nutty flavor to each cookie so my wife will give me that "look" and go, "Mmmmm" ... And you won't find that simply by looking at cookbooks/online recipes ... And Atlanta Arms won't explain why their Elite Match AMU 9mm 115 gr FMJ OAL went shorter from 1.130" to 1.110" in recent years which I noticed (Maybe their range testing "revealed" the same as my range tests? And no, you won't find that bit of information in reloading books either ) - https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html


Yes I have with many recipes being awful to where I am now "tweaking" ingredients to come up with my own cookie recipes that wife and I enjoy (Like substituting sugar with apple sauce, using mixture of white/brown sugars, and NOT substituting walnut for pecan ).

And in similar manner, just because a powder/bullet combo was chamber pressure tested at a particular OAL (Depending on leade length of test barrel) to SAAMI max average pressures that worked in a asingle action universal barrel fixture to be "published" as load data, it doesn't mean loads will be the most accurate or feed reliably from YOUR pistols/barrels/magazines actually used.

So to ensure reliability of function in our magazine fed semi-auto firearms and to optimize accuracy, we "tweak" the reloading variables a bit to arrive at Working OAL before conducting powder work up (Or down for some faster powders) and incrementally decrease OAL by .005" (If not at max charge) to squeeze out a bit more accuracy while sweating the details like taper crimp amount (or not at all) and what factors produce bullet setback (or no bullet setback) like case wall thickness by headstamp, bullet sizing by brand/manufacture, other reloading variables overshadowing like powder used for 100% case fill vs one that creates an air gap in front of flash hole when round is slammed into chamber to produce "powder forward" condition before powder ignition, etc.

IMHO, that's why members request reloading "data" ... ones that are based on our lifetime of reloading and shooting experience that some of us pursued with a passion while tweaking reloading variables. Kinda like sharing favorite cookie recipes we tweaked.

And in the "High Road" fashion, I will gladly share that information with other members (With disclaimers when required by THR forum rules) as I consider that "Paying It Forward", not just in stuff/money but in priceless knowledge and wisdom as promised to rcmodel and Bikerdoc before their passing (BTW, wisdom comes from having knowledge AND experience ... How to make sense of all the data into information ... When to use that information ... And experience comes from making mistakes. )

And simply telling members to "Go get yourself a book and read it and you will become a Michelin star chef" ... is not "High Road" IMO.

Just as my numerous mentors who generously and freely took me "under their wings" and shared their lifetime experience and infused me with their wisdom; THR should be a place where we take other members "under our wings" to openly share our lifetime experience and infuse our wisdom into them so they can propagate (Pay It Forward) the "High Road" notion to the next generation of reloaders, some of whom may pursue reloading with a passion.

If you read the introductory chapters to most fairly well written cookbooks, they explain why sometimes you use unsalted/salted butter and why you sometimes use lard or oil, instead of butter. It has to do with moisture content and the chemistry of baking... You have to read the "How-To" and "Getting Started" chapters instead of skipping straight to the "250ml of this and 1tsp of that..."

It's part of learning the basics and is required in every NEW endeavor. (unless you're really an experienced baker and are just gas-lighting us about being a pure novice... in which case, shame on you! and we won't be fooled again.)

When a poster comes on the board and post #1 is, "I've never reloaded before but I bought all of this equipment cheap at a garage sale/flea market/Craig's List - etc. - and need to know how much of powder A (which came with the deal) to put in the little shiny things to make the bullets B (also came with the deal) into super-bad-guy-busting self-defense rounds for my new TacArms Micro-Nine-WunderPistol. Don't bother me with learning to shoot - I've got 900 hours on CTD - and I don't need wimpy target loads - those are cheap at SuperBillyWorld. Thanks all!" THOSE are the posts I ignore. Don't respond. Don't care.

But it's the sincere newbies who want to learn and want to start with a solid foundation I do care about and suggesting they start with a "How-To" book and learn the basics by following established procedures before trying to experiment just seems right to me. YMMV. But in my world, trusting an open internet source like a forum implicitly to get the proportions right when some yay-hoo is fudging the components with no idea what kind of firearm or shooter is involved just isn't good advice. Sometimes you can sub a FMJ for a CPL bullet and there's no real difference. Sometimes not. Don't bet your gun or your safety on "not."

 

[CQB45ACP]

You guys can write some of the longest reply's!!!! wish we had updated emoji here

And someday I’ll sit you down and read them to you.

Now you know I’m just kidding, you don’t have the attention span. Now you know that was kidding too. You have the attention span just wouldn’t understand the words. Now you know that was also kidding.

edit: oh yeah the emoji you want is rip van winkle sleeping up against a tree.

 

[CQB45ACP]

If you read the introductory chapters to most fairly well written cookbooks, they explain why sometimes you use unsalted/salted butter and why you sometimes use lard or oil, instead of butter. It has to do with moisture content and the chemistry of baking... You have to read the "How-To" and "Getting Started" chapters instead of skipping straight to the "250ml of this and 1tsp of that..."

It's part of learning the basics and is required in every NEW endeavor. (unless you're really an experienced baker and are just gas-lighting us about being a pure novice... in which case, shame on you! and we won't be fooled again.)

When a poster comes on the board and post #1 is, "I've never reloaded before but I bought all of this equipment cheap at a garage sale/flea market/Craig's List - etc. - and need to know how much of powder A (which came with the deal) to put in the little shiny things to make the bullets B (also came with the deal) into super-bad-guy-busting self-defense rounds for my new TacArms Micro-Nine-WunderPistol. Don't bother me with learning to shoot - I've got 900 hours on CTD - and I don't need wimpy target loads - those are cheap at SuperBillyWorld. Thanks all!" THOSE are the posts I ignore. Don't respond. Don't care.

But it's the sincere newbies who want to learn and want to start with a solid foundation I do care about and suggesting they start with a "How-To" book and learn the basics by following established procedures before trying to experiment just seems right to me. YMMV. But in my world, trusting an open internet source like a forum implicitly to get the proportions right when some yay-hoo is fudging the components with no idea what kind of firearm or shooter is involved just isn't good advice. Sometimes you can sub a FMJ for a CPL bullet and there's no real difference. Sometimes not. Don't bet your gun or your safety on "not."

And why sometimes you beat, other times stir, and still others fold.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Few years back before I retired, I taught defensive point shooting to several retired couples in their late 60s with arthritis and shaky hands who were avid hunters. I told them not to worry as I taught hundreds of people, including those with shaky hands and vision issues.

They were surprised when I trained them to point shoot with eyes closed and they produced around 4"-6" groups at 5-7 yards. They were shocked when their wives shot even faster producing smaller groups and fast double taps - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-her-first-time-today.908729/#post-12369077

My accuracy? Double tap I demonstrated to wife's sister is two holes at top right edge of target on the right in this thread using RMR 115 gr FMJ and Promo powder (POI same as POA) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...shooting-for-those-with-vision-issues.891558/

Yes, but we aren't all Demi-Gods like you. Some of us have to struggle to locate the pig in the brush before he smells us. We can't just use our remarkable mental powers to take over the pig's brain and convince it to walk into the bullet.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

And why sometimes you beat, other times stir, and still others fold.

Yup. But try telling a new reloader on this forum to read the introductory chapters of a good manual and you're enemy number one of every "experienced" (and obviously vastly superior) handloader on the forum. Don't DARE tell people to spend five dollars on a used manual. Heaven's to Betsy! You might as well be robbing them of their first born!

 

[Soonerpesek]

But in my world, trusting an open internet source like a forum implicitly to get the proportions right when some yay-hoo is fudging the components with no idea what kind of firearm or shooter is involved just isn't good advice

I most whole heartedly agree.............................but I will also add that there are certain members of this forum that I would trust load data from.............I'm guessing you prolly have an idea of whom I am speaking of..............

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I most whole heartedly agree.............................but I will also add that there are certain members of this forum that I would trust load data from.............I'm guessing you prolly have an idea of whom I am speaking of..............

As an EXPERIENCED handloader, you're quite right to do so. But I'm saying the newbie who doesn't know what a crimped-in primer looks like, what "cam-over" means or how to tell a properly-seated compressed load from an improperly-seated over-load. And that's the difference, in my mind: earnestly looking for advice - great! happy to help; doesn't know what they're asking for and in a snit when told they need to learn some basics - no thanks. What really frosts me is when The Peanut Gallery jumps in and starts yelling! "No! don't waste money on a manual! Just do a search in the web!" Bad advice.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

And someday I’ll sit you down and read them to you.

Now you know I’m just kidding, you don’t have the attention span. Now you know that was kidding too. You have the attention span just wouldn’t understand the words. Now you know that was also kidding.

edit: oh yeah the emoji you want is rip van winkle sleeping up against a tree.

"reeding iz funded metal."
TLDR

 

[AJC1]

The thing I believe is the real question here is powder chariactstics. As an example unique shoots pretty evenly across the entire range with cast boolits in 38. A lot of other powders I have tested have definite sweet spots depending on charge. It is my conviction that the powder charge likes to operate in a certain pressure window to give best performance. The nossler data shows the best charge tested for every powder tested vs Lyman that only gives the best charge of the best powder tested in that application. It's one of the reasons I often just give a link to that data. Are people asking about loads because they are clueless or because components are expensive and hard to find. The why is important, and assuming the first reason does not preclude the second.

 

[AJC1]

As an EXPERIENCED handloader, you're quite right to do so. But I'm saying the newbie who doesn't know what a crimped-in primer looks like, what "cam-over" means or how to tell a properly-seated compressed load from an improperly-seated over-load. And that's the difference, in my mind: earnestly looking for advice - great! happy to help; doesn't know what they're asking for and in a snit when told they need to learn some basics - no thanks. What really frosts me is when The Peanut Gallery jumps in and starts yelling! "No! don't waste money on a manual! Just do a search in the web!" Bad advice.

That's still not an excuse because there are free manuals they can download and read. Western and winchester are but two I have in digital format.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

That's still not an excuse because there are free manuals they can download and read. Western and winchester are but two I have in digital format.

Then my best advice is, you do you and I'll do me and that way the newbies get a variety of options to choose from.
BTW: I don't need excuses for giving my best advice. And won't make any. Ever.

 

[Mark_Mark]

And someday I’ll sit you down and read them to you.

Now you know I’m just kidding, you don’t have the attention span. Now you know that was kidding too. You have the attention span just wouldn’t understand the words. Now you know that was also kidding.

edit: oh yeah the emoji you want is rip van winkle sleeping up against a tree.

Mean!!!

might be in your neck of the wood in a few year! we can go shooting

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The thing I believe is the real question here is powder chariactstics. As an example unique shoots pretty evenly across the entire range with cast boolits in 38. A lot of other powders I have tested have definite sweet spots depending on charge. It is my conviction that the powder charge likes to operate in a certain pressure window to give best performance. The nossler data shows the best charge tested for every powder tested vs Lyman that only gives the best charge of the best powder tested in that application. It's one of the reasons I often just give a link to that data. Are people asking about loads because they are clueless or because components are expensive and hard to find. The why is important, and assuming the first reason does not preclude the second.

Never assume. Ask. I do. Sometimes the answer is, "Just curious."

 

[CQB45ACP]

Yup. But try telling a new reloader on this forum to read the introductory chapters of a good manual and you're enemy number one of every "experienced" (and obviously vastly superior) handloader on the forum. Don't DARE tell people to spend five dollars on a used manual. Heaven's to Betsy! You might as well be robbing them of their first born!

Before I ask any questions here I make sure they haven’t already been answered previously & before I ever asked my first one, I had already read Lee’s second edition and ABCs. Do one’s homework. In my case, it didn’t prevent lame questions but I didn’t waste your time either.

Every place I ever worked in government had an employee’s manual explaining the basics of time & attendance and important functions of various offices. Other manuals also existed like how to handle classified national security information. (Don’t take it to Florida or send it to Chipiqua NY was on page one as I recall.)

RTFM can prevent lots of heartache.