Deciding on buying a stellar deal H&K USPc 9mm (with regards to accessories)

[RadekSkylark]

Hello, everyone!

I'm from Latvia, Baltic States (Europe). Around 6 years ago I got my CCW permit and bought my first handgun, S&W 640-1 (cause we're not allowed to carry a round in the chamber). Recently I bought myself a used Maverick 88 Security 18,5" 12 gauge shotgun for home defense (got a great deal IMO, although it is nowhere close as good as the one I'm going to talk about next).

In one of the local shops, I found a "used" H&K USPc 9mm which to me seemed to be in basically a brand new condition (maybe shot a few times, not sure, the shop had rather poor lighting conditions but I'm pretty sure it was barely used). These guns new run for 830$ to 1000$ in local or European shops (unfortunately Glocks are around 720$ to 950$, and used ones are almost nonexistent), but I managed to arrive at a price of 200$ for the particular gun (partly because it had been in the shop for some time and the clerk really didn't know what that gun is too well (they usually sell only Glocks but USP are not too popular here, at least not in the past 1-2 decades).

I'm really excited about this deal and hope that I'll get the permit to buy it in the coming weeks, as this to me seems like a deal of a lifetime (around 25% price of a brand new one). The only reason I'm 100% sure whether I actually want to purchase it is this - there is basically no aftermarket support for it locally and in Europe as well. Also, for every handgun I purchase I need to pay taxes of 60$.

For example, there are few options to get spare Glock mags for 25$-35$, but for USP they go for 55$. There are some options for IWB and OWB holsters for Glocks and their mags, as well as aftermarket sights and other parts, there are non for USP locally. The only options I've found are some quite expensive European holsters from Falco Holsters, IIRC. Then there is the problem with flashlights (I presume I would want to mount one in the future), as there is a limited amount of flashlights that'll fit directly (not even talking about the fact that locally, including Europe, I cannot purchase an IWB holster which is light compatible (I think even Falco Holsters didn't have one). As I understand even in US USPc's doesn't have the best aftermarket support. Anyways, considering the problems with shipping from US to Latvia I really cannot get my hands on US accessories in any simple way. With regards to flashlights, I don't think I can buy and in Latvia (maybe some options for Glocks), but I could definitely buy some for Glocks in Europe, not sure about any for USP. As for adapters for USP, there are no available locally and haven't found any in Europe, so again, I would need to purchase from US, but there are basically no companies that ship to Europe.

I wanted to purchase this gun for home defense and concealed carry, as well as an entry gun I could use to start participating in local IPSC events (we don't have IDPA here), although it is nowhere close to the best choice for IPSC, it would get me started and it could try to meet all these needs reasonably well in the long run if I could source everything I need in terms of accessories (I was told that at the start for IPSC I need a total of 3 mags and of course holders for gun and mags), and doing it all at a stellar price (good investment). Considering the deal it is, it seems hard (or even stupid) to pass, when you consider that for me to get a new Glock 19, for example, costs in total of at least 780$, whereas this USPc for cost me 260$ in total (1/3 of the price, disregarding accessories). Of course, after I add in a bunch of spare mags, holsters, falshlight, etc this difference will come down a big, but will still be measurable in a few hundred $, which for me is a lot.

I would presume that for me the best bet would be to get a Glock 17 for IPSC and home defense + Glock 19 (or maybe 26 with an extended mag peace to get a good grip and extra rounds) for CCW, especially if I could get holsters that fit both guns (bot IWB for CCW and OWB for IPSC), also I could use my Glock 17 mags as backup for a CCW Glock I have. Many of the aftermarket parts I believe could also be interchangable (or maybe not). Anyways, this seems to be a better long-term prospect. The only thing I would want for all my Glocks is the back plate on the slide where you can put on your finger while reholstering so as to block full extension of the striker (maybe wrong words used but you get the point) which as I understand is even expensive in US, disregarding shipping which for me would cost a lot probably, if I even can find someone to ship it. This is one of the things I like more for USPc as a CCW, that there is a hammer I can block while reholstering (I carry AIWB, it makes me more comfortable). I can never forget that vidoe of the guy in the shop reholstering his Glock and then getting a ND while picking up something/ducking.

Basically, I'm having doubts that buying this USPc just to put it in a safe as an investment in the long run is a good choice, considering that I would still want a Glock 17 for IPSC after few years (or when a good deal pops up).

Anyways, a lot of words said, but I'm still rather new to firearms and was hoping that you guys here with way more experience could help me with some advice considering the circumstances I've laid out. <edited>

 

[FL-NC]

Regarding accessories- do you have the ability to use Amazon? Is there anyone in your area who works with kydex who can make your holster and mag pouch?

 

[tarosean]

^^^That.

Can you not import accessories? for 200 Lats or Euros I would buy it without a second though thats a steal of a deal. .

 

[RadekSkylark]

Regarding accessories- do you have the ability to use Amazon? Is there anyone in your area who works with kydex who can make your holster and mag pouch?

Unfortunatelly Amazon.com also doesn't ship most of the gun related items to Latvia. As for kydex - I haven't found anyone who makes custom stuff locally, so, unfortunately that is not a solution.

^^^That.

Can you not import accessories? for 200 Lats or Euros I would buy it without a second though thats a steal of a deal. .

I can import accessories, but for whatever reason, almost all US companies don't ship to Europe (and I think it is not because of regulations but rather because the EU market is rather small (because of gun laws) and there is just no point to deal with exports).

<edited>

Just to remind you, we don't have Lats for almost 8 years now, the pair was EUR/LVL = 0,7028, so, in Lats it costs now only 127 LVL (which is 180 EUR, which is what it actually costs, translating to roughly 200$ US). That is why I'm asking... It's hard to even comprehend letting such a deal go, but at the same time I don't want to spend a fortune (for me) trying to configure a system that'll have a really narrow focus and no future (as in a system).

 

[Rule3]

How many magazines come with the HK?

I have that gun in 40SW and it is an excellent gun.

Surely you have holster makers where you live to make one from leather?

 

[RadekSkylark]

It comes with only one flush plate mag.

Maybe there is one guy who makes them, but they'd be at least as expensive as Falco holsters (from, I think, Germany), and they have some plastic ones, which is what I prefer (next to kydex, of course).

I carry AIWB, so I wouldn't want to go with a leather holster, I want the holster to be ideally of kydex or plastic, or maybe a hybrid (leather backing with kydex/plastic for outer shell, something similar to crossbreed).

 

[Nuclear]

Maybe I’m being dense, but HKs are made on your side of the Atlantic, shouldn’t it be easier to get their magazines shipped inside of Europe?

Also, part of your problem about shipping you accessories from the states would be ITAR restrictions.

 

[RadekSkylark]

With regards to magazines, it is not a problem of getting the but rather a comparison I've made to Glocks regarding their price (they're basically 2 times more expensive than mags for Glocks).

The real problems come with other accessories (general aftermarket support as well as availability/shipping options).

I'm really not sure about ITAR regulations, but to me, it seems odd that things like speedloaders, speed strips, holsters, dummy rounds, etc go under ITAR, as I've had problems with purchasing any of these from the US. It may be the case, and if so, that's really unfortunate.

<edited>

 

[GarrettJ]

Personally, I’d grab the USPc. The savings will more than make up for the higher accessory costs.

HK mags are more expensive than Glock mags, no matter where you are. I think I paid around $60 each for the extended USP-40 Expert mags several years ago. They hold 16 rounds of .40, and I had bought them specifically to shoot IPSC (USPSA) with. At double the cost of Glock mags, you’re still money ahead vs. buying a Glock & mags.

Do you shoot IPSC now? Have you shot it much, or are you just getting started? I would not get hung up on the Glock VS USPc. Either will do just fine at that sport. Spend more time practicing, doing dry fire, etc. You will realize better results than buying one gun vs. another.

Are you very handy at making things? Kydex is actually pretty easy to work with using just simple hand tools. There are all sorts of videos on YouTube showing you how to make holsters and mag carriers from kydex. You can also build a kydex forming press pretty easily. I made some Desert Eagle mag carriers specifically to shoot that gun in USPSA. Mostly just because I could.

 

[RadekSkylark]

Personally, I’d grab the USPc. The savings will more than make up for the higher accessory costs.

HK mags are more expensive than Glock mags, no matter where you are. I think I paid around $60 each for the extended USP-40 Expert mags several years ago. They hold 16 rounds of .40, and I had bought them specifically to shoot IPSC (USPSA) with. At double the cost of Glock mags, you’re still money ahead vs. buying a Glock & mags.

Do you shoot IPSC now? Have you shot it much, or are you just getting started? I would not get hung up on the Glock VS USPc. Either will do just fine at that sport. Spend more time practicing, doing dry fire, etc. You will realize better results than buying one gun vs. another.

Are you very handy at making things? Kydex is actually pretty easy to work with using just simple hand tools. There are all sorts of videos on YouTube showing you how to make holsters and mag carriers from kydex. You can also build a kydex forming press pretty easily. I made some Desert Eagle mag carriers specifically to shoot that gun in USPSA. Mostly just because I could.

No, I just want to get started in the IPSC, there was an event planned on 20.03, but unfortunately, there are no free spots left (I didn't register sooner because I don't have a gun yet), but now I'll need to wait for the next one, which hopefully will be in 04.2022. Today I did shoot G17, G19 and USP (full size) and noticed that with all of them I can shoot similarly, which made me also understand that for what I want to achieve any of these guns would be good enough, the real thing is practice. Also, my IPSC aspirations are almost small, I don't plan on becoming one of the best, just a decent (median) shooter.

I'm handy, but I really don't have enough time to DIY, maybe if it would be the only choice, maybe then. But there are these "Falco holsters" with some options. Oh, yeah, and I forgot, there is one US manufacturer who ships to Latvia, it is "Vedder holsters", it had some options as well (of course quite expensive with shipping, something around 115$ for "Lighttuck" model). So, yeah, I'd probably just grind my teeth and buy something.

 

[RadekSkylark]

Today I got a nice deal for a barely used (the guy said he has only shot it twice at the range, all the other time it has been laying in his safe) Glock 19 Gen 3 (see the picture) for 450$ (yeah, I know, you may be paying such a price on discount retail, but for us these guns never go less than ~830$ new). I paid in 25% of the price to the owner and I hope everything goes as planned and next week we can go to the police (for every gun we buy we need to go to the police to get add it to the CCW permit), where I'll pay the rest and get it to myself. I'm really excited because I've been through all the local shops (which is around 70-80% of all the shops in Latvia) and non have a used G19 for sale (few have G17 Gen 2 more used than this G19 starting at the same 450$ but without spare mags).

I'm not sure I truly believe in karma, but today when I was going through shops I met a gentleman who was searching to buy a new G19 (actually, the usual shops that sell Glock didn't have any, one of the shops that import Glock had no new Glocks at all, this is how popular they are here), so he was really disappointed that he could only find shops that have G17 gen 4 or 5. The shop I met him in was selling new G17 or G19 (when they had them) for 940$ (by the way, when I refer to $ I refer to US$). I knew a specific shop that had a brand new G19C for sale for 830$ so I was kind enough (considering that I made a decision that I'm not going to purchase a brand new G19) to provide him with information for that shop and refer him to the shop owner (which is the owner of the range I go to as well). So I presume he went to buy that gun. After this, I went home, opened up craigslist and there was my G19 gen 3 for 450$. Could this be good karma coming back at me for helping the gentleman get a G19 now and for a cheaper price? Maybe...

Anyways, now that I'll hopefully have this G19 all my needs really will be met (good home defense/carry gun which could still be rather competitive in the right hands in the IPSC production class, at least I think so). I think because of this I'll just go on and buy that USPc, but will leave it as is (just as an extra home defense gun and for some shooting at the range), without investing anything more at this point in time with regards to accessories. If I'll need or want I'll buy extra mags, holster etc later on. I still think this USPc is a decent investment, cause today I saw a shop sell basically the same gun in the same condition (only with a mag with the extended baseplate) for 550$, and saw another one in a worse condition but with two extended baseplate mags in the craigslist for 340$. Considering the inflation that we all have I think it's a good buy anyway. What do you guys think? Or should I just pass on it and better spend those ~250$ (gun + taxes) on something else?

 

[Gordon]

The price of HK mags are much more in US than a Glock mag. Great price you got get another of larger capacity and pay whatever you can find one for. If I were in your situation I would go to a local leather maker guy and have him make a simple holster of your choice and fit it to the weapon when you get it. I have been in overseas are and done that and was very well served doing it.

 

[GarrettJ]

No, I just want to get started in the IPSC...

Good to hear that you found a Glock at a good price.

Since you’re just starting out, another thought is to get the minimum equipment needed to start shooting. Once you have shot a few matches and get to know some of the local IPSC shooters, they will likely be able to suggest where to buy gear and accessories. Sometimes the clubs will have want ads where you can buy/sell competition gear that wouldn’t necessarily show up on Craigslist.

 

[RadekSkylark]

Yeah, at the start I plan only to get another spare mag for the Glock so that I have the minimum suggested capacity for IPSC (3 mags total was suggested to me for start), and some simple holsters/belt.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I’ve edited some portions of post in this thread which could be read as admission or solicitations to commit illegal acts.

Please be aware that the import/export of certain products internationally is restricted and tightly controlled. We don’t want to see anyone lose their firearm ownership rights over such things

 

[Havok7416]

With regards to magazines, it is not a problem of getting the but rather a comparison I've made to Glocks regarding their price (they're basically 2 times more expensive than mags for Glocks).

The real problems come with other accessories (general aftermarket support as well as availability/shipping options).

I'm really not sure about ITAR regulations, but to me, it seems odd that things like speedloaders, speed strips, holsters, dummy rounds, etc go under ITAR, as I've had problems with purchasing any of these from the US. It may be the case, and if so, that's really unfortunate.

<edited>

You posted before about this. ITAR encompasses many items. Shipping an item restricted under ITAR can result in major penalties. I am very well versed on the subject and spent quite some time shipping things (legally) in and out of warzones. There's a reason you are having trouble getting things out of the US - this is by design. Please stop asking members here to violate the law.

For those who are not clear about this, ITAR can cover things as mundane as body armor and spare parts for firearms all the way up to full missile systems and other military-grade weaponry.

 

[JohnKSa]

Please be aware that the import/export of certain products internationally is restricted and tightly controlled.

I'll second (third?) this. There is a reason that many U.S. gun companies won't ship gun accessories or gun parts overseas. ITAR and EAR restrictions are no joke. They can be complicated and counter-intuitive.

Here's a good source on the topic that should provide a good starting place.

https://www.williamsmullen.com/news/itar-guide-firearms-industry

As an example of just how counter-intuitive that these regulations can be. How many people would ever imagine that "Assisting foreign persons in the design, development, and repair of firearms may constitute the export of a defense service..." and providing technical information could be considered an export and that both of these activities are regulated by laws which carry significant penalties.

Just be careful.

 

[RadekSkylark]

Just to be clear, everyone, I'm sorry if I offended someone, I didn't mean to. What I was hoping for is that some of you may actually know about this ITAR regulation in detail to maybe shed some light on actually what they encompass in terms of accessories (like mags, holsters, etc), and whether they apply for commercial companies or individuals as well. To that extent, as I think I wrote already, to me it seemed that the reason many don't ship things as holsters, etc is because of the economic policy of the company, not the regulations, but so far from what I read it really seems to not be the case (that is, the regulations are actually at play). In that case, I want to be clear, I'm not deliberately asking anyone to break the law, I wouldn't want anyone to bear the consequences just for trying to help me, and I wouldn't ever expect anyone to even try something like that (breaking the law). So to that end, I apologize if I hadn't made myself clear enough.

@Havok7416, can you, please elaborate on whether there are any accessories that I've been referring to that can actually be shipped to Latvia (Europe) without breaking the law, if, of course, you know this part of regulations? Or is everything "of the table" for companies and individuals as well? Or is it just a hassle to meet "all the criteria and requirements" so that one (either company or an individual) can actually legally send something overseas?

@JohnKSa, thanks for sharing the link, I'll check it out, and hopefully, there will be something that helps me better understand the regulations.

Once again, I want to apologize to anyone who might have felt that I'm asking them to break the law for my benefit, that is not what I've wanted, even if it might have sounded like that.

 

[Havok7416]

Just to be clear, everyone, I'm sorry if I offended someone, I didn't mean to. What I was hoping for is that some of you may actually know about this ITAR regulation in detail to maybe shed some light on actually what they encompass in terms of accessories (like mags, holsters, etc), and whether they apply for commercial companies or individuals as well. To that extent, as I think I wrote already, to me it seemed that the reason many don't ship things as holsters, etc is because of the economic policy of the company, not the regulations, but so far from what I read it really seems to not be the case (that is, the regulations are actually at play). In that case, I want to be clear, I'm not deliberately asking anyone to break the law, I wouldn't want anyone to bear the consequences just for trying to help me, and I wouldn't ever expect anyone to even try something like that (breaking the law). So to that end, I apologize if I hadn't made myself clear enough.

@Havok7416, can you, please elaborate on whether there are any accessories that I've been referring to that can actually be shipped to Latvia (Europe) without breaking the law, if, of course, you know this part of regulations? Or is everything "of the table" for companies and individuals as well? Or is it just a hassle to meet "all the criteria and requirements" so that one (either company or an individual) can actually legally send something overseas?

@JohnKSa, thanks for sharing the link, I'll check it out, and hopefully, there will be something that helps me better understand the regulations.

Once again, I want to apologize to anyone who might have felt that I'm asking them to break the law for my benefit, that is not what I've wanted, even if it might have sounded like that.

First of all, my background on this stems from shipping and receiving military equipment when I worked on a US military base overseas as a private contractor. I shipped a LOT of ITAR and EAR hardware in my time over there.
Secondly, you've apparently already convinced a member here to skirt our export laws and also called him out by name in a public forum, so I really don't want to hear

I want to apologize to anyone who might have felt that I'm asking them to break the law for my benefit, that is not what I've wanted

.

This has nothing to do with the size size of the market in Europe and more to do with liability. The size of the market is very small in Hawaii for example and the only problem there is cost of shipping (gunpowder and primers are a different story). The companies or individuals here in the US would have to get an export license to ship outside of the country. Even if that market is appealing to them they assume all the risk if they ship a part that is prohibited. That risk includes up to $1,000,000 in fines and 10 years in prison for each violation. Not everything is prohibited but very few (if any) companies will want to sit down and figure it all out.

For individuals the hurdle to clear is certification, for export and/or ITAR. I didn't pay anything for mine (now expired), but for the average person in the states it is cost-prohibitive to get the training just to ship a single holster, a handful of parts or whatever. We have been dealing with a similar issue here in the states for the last years due to the cost of primers. Individuals (and companies) can't ship anything Hazmat - meaning primers in this case - without being certified. The cost to get the training/certification as an individual is again prohibitive.

In a different take on this, several states, most notably California, heavily restrict firearms and related items that are legal in the rest of the states. Many firearm-related companies refuse to ship to a state in our own country because they don't want to sit down and figure out what is legal there. I can assure you the firearms market in California is not small by any means and undoubtedly larger than Latvia's, yet many still won't jump through the hoops to sell their wares there. In a similar way, many companies don't want the headache of shipping items overseas that may or may not be legal over there. The end result is that you have to find what you seek locally.

Companies are in business to make money. If they won't sell you an item there's going to be a reason regardless of the size of the market in your area.

 

[RadekSkylark]

@Havok7416, thank you for explaining, it does seem that the general problem for me is caused by regulations that are hard to understand/comply with an everyday Joe.

This also is the reason why I'm apologizing in my previous post, as I initially didn't even know about such strict ITAR regulations, especially in the sense that they'd apply to holsters and such accessories, even more so those years back when I first got some help (I'm not sure the regulations were the same or not back then), if I would have, I wouldn't have asked anyone to help me (I did ask if someone could help if they wanted to, but I did no "convincing", so to speak, and I didn't provide any "compensation" for helping me). Call any of it stupidity on my part, and I'll accept that I probably should have known better, that is my fault indeed. Surely though, as a beginner in gun-related topics still, when I proceed to ask any questions on such a forum I do presume that there are many knowledgeable people around who know the regulations at least to an extent as to understand what is off the limits, if you will, with regards to any type of help/advice, as well as being able to call out my BS, if there is any.

To be honest, at this moment I do feel quite embarrassed that I've even asked for any help, as me not knowing US regulations has meant that I'm possibly setting someone up for trouble.

 

[GarrettJ]

To be honest, at this moment I do feel quite embarrassed that I've even asked for any help, as me not knowing US regulations has meant that I'm possibly setting someone up for trouble.

Don't take that as a reason not to ask questions. That's how we all learn, and the ensuing discussion has been beficial to more of us than only you.

Keep asking questions. If there are inadvertent issues, those in the know will steer the conversation away from trouble, as has been done here, and all are better educated for it. And there may still be ways to offer help that don't involve running afoul of international regulations.

 

[CapnMac]

I do feel quite embarrassed

Such things do happen.
And firearms regulations are as tangled as any other regulations both nationally and internationally.
Which can be frustrating as we have this splendid ability to communicate both nationally and internationally.

And that's a complication unto itself. I know Brownell's has a separate European branch, and I know it does not stock all the thing the US branch does. And what it can offer likely varies by nation, too.

Did not see anything helpful on the GunMarket.eu site out of Riga.

Now, I do have to admit this thread taught me something. I had not know that Latvians could conceal carry--that's pretty rare in Europe.

 

[RadekSkylark]

Thanks, guys for your support, I think that this is exactly what must happen, we all have something to learn from "not the most pleasant" situations, but that is just life, isn't it?

Yeah, we can carry. When I did my CCW exam it was rather hard. You need to know a lot of local regulations/laws with regards to firearms and you need to answer the exam in person (you were given some 20 minutes before that to prepare the answers on paper based on your memory). After that, you needed to show that you know how to handle Makarov PM (this is the "default" pistol on our side of the world, at least as far as it goes for the everyday Joe). If you do all this, you get certified. Then you just need to go through doctors checking your health (the most stringent is the psychiatrist and narcologist as they check for counter-indications (there are some really ridiculous ones unfortunately as well, which are the reason why many who want a CCW permit cannot get one). When you're through with this you can get yourself a gun. We're allowed to own up to 10 firearms total. We have 3 basic "use" groups for firearms, self-defense, hunting, and sports. I've heard that now for the few last years the exam has been simplified a lot and is basically a test where you need to find the right answer from the answers presented to you, also there is no need to show that you can deal with the Makarov PM. So, if you can pass the health checks, it is was easier to get the permit.

So yeah, essentially, relative to central Europe, our gun laws are indeed less prohibitive.

 

[RadekSkylark]

Hello, everyone!

Today was a rather fun day - went to buy the Glock 19 (at the police station, while doing the registration of the handgun) and got there my other purchase permit, so, thought, why not go to the shop which sells the USPc. So, I went and bought it as well. That makes this day for me a handguns day From owning a revolver and a shotgun now I also own 2 semi-autos. The nicest part is that in the end I only paid 190$ for the USPc.

Below are a few pictures of my Glock 19 and further below pictures of my USPc.

 

[CapnMac]

Nice. Few times as fun as when you bring a new-to-you firearm home and its yours.