Decockers...what's the difference?

[69Precision]

Got pretty familiar with the M9 while in the military. I won't argue the safety aspect of a decocker, whether it's more or less safe than a striker fired pistol or a cocked and locked 1911. I just like them in the "decocked" position, and flipping it as a draw. That said, I saw a thread recently that mentioned an undesirable aspect of the M9 is that the decocker is "slide mounted", vs a frame mounted being better. I know the IMI Baby Eagle, older Smith and Wesson, and some Sig's have slide mounted. It looks like the CZ-75 series has a frame mounted, but is that a true decocker or just a safety of some type? What other pistols have a frame mounted, and is it really better?Thanks!

 

[Rock185]

To each his own. I've owned Berettas and S&W pistols, etc. with the slide mounted safety/decocker. Fine pistols, but carrying on safe and attempting to flip the safety up to fire is awkward for me. Back in the '80s, the agency I worked for authorized 9MM semi-autos for duty use. The policy was: be consistent whether you want to carry the pistol in the safe or fire position. Always train and carry it in the fashion you decide on. Seemed very reasonable to me. The Beretta was one of the approved pistols.

The CZ75 is available with an actual frame mounted decocker or a traditional 1911 type safety that locks the hammer in the cocked position.

As to what other pistols have frame mounted safetys. Some of those would be the aforementioned CZ75, 1911, FN/Browning Hi Power, SIG P210 and some double stack SIGs, Star,etc. The frame mounted safeties really are better for me.......ymmv

 

[JTQ]

It looks like the CZ-75 series has a frame mounted, but is that a true decocker or just a safety of some type? What other pistols have a frame mounted, and is it really better?Thanks!

CZ has their lever on the frame, but they aren't the same type of lever as the Beretta 92FS which is a safety/decocker. The CZ guns can either be a safety or a decocker, but not both.

The CZ75B has a safety only http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-b-9mm-black-16-rd-mag/

The CZ75BD has a decocker only (note the different lever) http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-bd-9mm-black-16-rd-mags/

Their newer poly guns will allow you to switch the lever from either a safety or a decocker (but not both at the same time).

P07 http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-p-07-9mm-black-polymer-interchangeable-back-straps-15-rd-mags/

P09 http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-p-09-9mm-black-polymer-19-rd-mags/

I just like them in the "decocked" position, and flipping it as a draw.

You are certainly in the minority on this. Most use the safety/decocker on their Beretta 92FS as a decocker only and carry with the hammer down, safety off.

HK offers a frame mounted safety/decocker on their USP line of guns http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/usp/

Pay attention to the different options on the USP for the control lever. It can be configured in a variety of ways and left off completely. Know what you want it to do before deciding on the version.

 

[JTQ]

I completely left off one of the biggest players in the frame mounted decocker business, SIG.

Most SIG's use a decocker only with no safety function, though they do offer versions with a safety, but they don't have a decocker.

SIG P226 has a decocker only http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p226-nitron.aspx

SIG P226 SAO (Single Action Only) has a safety and no decocker http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p226-elite-sao.aspx

 

[Chuck R.]

HKs have frame mounted (USP, HK45) and HKs have slide mounted (P30 and P2000).

The issue often mentioned with the M9 is that the decocker also functions as a safety, and it's possible while firing, moving etc. to not only decock the pistol but put it into "safe". Other versions of the 92 have modded the safety/decock (G Model) so it's decock only.

I don't think frame mounted is necessarily better, it just depends on how you shoot and your grip. For a DA/SA gun I prefer a decocker only, relying on the 1st trigger pull for a safety margin.

Chuck

 

[JTQ]

You are certainly in the minority on this. Most use the safety/decocker on their Beretta 92FS as a decocker only and carry with the hammer down, safety off.

Commenting on my own quote...

The big news for the Beretta fans over the past couple years is the reemergence of the "G" model (decocker only) guns from Beretta.

Beretta brought back the basic 92G, the 92G-SD, and Wilson Combat now offers the 92G Brigadier Tactical. The new M9A3 is scheduled to be offered in G configuration, and reportedly will have a lever arrangement allowing the user to switch the lever between safety/decocker and decocker only. This lever is supposed to be compatible with other 92 Series guns and will allow the user to switch their guns from safety/decocker to decocker only. The Beretta fans are anxiously waiting for this feature to become available.

 

[FL-NC]

The taurus 92 and the original 92 had a frame mounted safety/decock (some taurus it was just a safety- not sure about the older 92's). When we used the M9 in the mil, everyone carried it on FIRE, hammer down. When we de-cocked after firing, we would return it to FIRE then re-holster. I think the "G" series (de-cock only) is better. A problem we had with the standard M9 was that during a malfunction drill, the user would often accidentally knock the lever to SAFE during the "rack" portion of the drill (esp when wearing gloves). This resulted in what we called a "dead man's gun". Pistols like the SIG 220/225/228/229/226 have a frame mounted de-cock. I think this is better.

 

[HexHead]

I find when drawing my 92 from it's holster, it's very easy to hit the safety off with my thumb before my hand is around the grip.

That said, I usually carry it safety off. After years of carrying a Glock, that DA first trigger pull is safety enough.

 

[Ed Ames]

As far as I know, the dislike of slide mounted safeties (including decocker safeties that stay in a "decock" position) is that they conflict with the muscle memory of a 1911 style safety which can be held down while shooting. In that respect it is much like the argument against heel or trigger guard mag releases...if every gun was that way it would be fine.

I personally like decockers that are intermittent controls. E.g. the CZ75BD. Push down and the gun decocks. Release and the gun is a trigger pull away from firing. I don't care that much whether an intermittent decockers is on slide or frame.

 

[herrwalther]

I don't really think it matters where the decocker is (frame vs slide). I have used variations of both on Sigs, Walthers, and Berettas of various flavors. I only used the decocker when reholstering or during DA fire practice. Such as firing every round in double action.

Now the placement of the safety decockers does matter. Such as on the Beretta 92/ military M9. That switch decocks the hammer and blocks the firing pin. Like most others in the military, I carried my M9 decocked and on fire. The only exception to this was when I was being watched by some folk who would care my weapon was on fire. I ditched all my issued holsters for the M9 and used a SERPA that covered the trigger much more efficiently. I would have preferred the M9 be based off the 92G and just decock without the safety.

 

[FL-NC]

herrwalther- on some FOBS the FOBBITS (who thought they knew more about weapons than we did) would try to "correct" us if the "saw our red dot". So our guys who worked on the FOBS just colored it in with black sharpie. The FOBS were so well-trained the only way they could tell was if the dot was visible vs the position of the control (lol).

 

[Sergei Mosin]

I am fortunate enough to have a variety of DA/SA pistols with different decocker and safety setups. I have taken pictures to illustrate some of the differences between S&W, Beretta, HK, CZ, and SIG decockers. I am posting from my phone so can only include one photo per post, so this will take a while...

The first gun illustrated is a Smith & Wesson Model 1006 with slide-mounted decocker/safety. S&W also had decocker only models with the decocker mounted on the frame, much like a SIG. I do not have one of those. This photo shows the 1006 with the hammer cocked and ready to fire.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

This photo shows the 1006 decocked but with the safety off. The gun is ready to fire in double-action mode.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Here the 1006 is decocked. Note that safe is down and fire is up. This is opposite the way a 1911 works and has generated much criticism from the 1911 set. Some also claim that the slide-mounted safety/decocker on S&W and Beretta pistols can be inadvertently placed on safe while doing holster work, racking the slide, or decocking the pistol. I've never experienced this myself and I think it's vastly overblown, both as an occurrence and as a problem.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

This photo and the next illustrate the operation of the 1006 decocker. In this photo I am holding the hammer back on the pistol while it is decocked so that the firing pin block can be seen.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Finally, the 1006 is seen with the decocker and safety off and ready to fire. The firing pin block can be seen here out of the way. Note that the 1006 decocker/safety lever is ambidextrous.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Now we move on a Beretta. This is an M9A1 shown fully decocked and with the safety on.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

In this photo the Beretta's lever has been flipped up and the pistol is ready to fire in double-action mode. As noted earlier, this is opposite way a 1911 works and has been another stick to beat the poor Beretta with ever since DoD adopted the M9.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Some Berettas have a half-cock notch. The pistol should not be carried at half-cock - it is there as an additional safety catch in case the hammer is accidentally dropped from full cock (for example, while manually cocking the hammer). The S&W does not have this feature.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Here the M9A1 is fully cocked and ready to fire in single-action mode.

 

[robertg5322]

Here the 1006 is decocked. Note that safe is down and fire is up. This is opposite the way a 1911 works and has generated much criticism from the 1911 set. Some also claim that the slide-mounted safety/decocker on S&W and Beretta pistols can be inadvertently placed on safe while doing holster work, racking the slide, or decocking the pistol. I've never experienced this myself and I think it's vastly overblown, both as an occurrence and as a problem.

If you've ever shot a Beretta 92 non-G model in any kind of pressure situation, and cleared a malfunction you will have experienced the dead trigger.

It's a product of how malfunctions are cleared; you tap or drop the mag, grab the slide from the rear and rack with force. Where you're grabbing is where the safety levers are. Your hand is on them. If you move it down, it stays down.

The one upside of these guns is that they don't malfunction often but no amount of reliability can compensate for ammo problems.

Now I just play gun-games, so the only issue to me is more time on the clock as I figure out why my gun won't fire. But if I was being shot at, I think I'd be a little bit more upset about this condition.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

This photo shows the hammer pulled back with the decocker/safety engaged. Rather than raising a block between the hammer and firing pin, as on the S&W, the Beretta rotates the firing pin plunger away from the hammer. It also disconnects the trigger bar and releases the hammer. It is, I think, a slightly more elegant system than that used by S&W.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

And finally, the M9A1 ready to fire with the decocker off and the firing pin plunger in position. Note that the Beretta's levers are also ambidextrous.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

If you've ever shot a Beretta 92 non-G model in any kind of pressure situation, and cleared a malfunction you will have experienced the dead trigger.

It's a product of how malfunctions are cleared; you tap or drop the mag, grab the slide from the rear and rack with force. Where you're grabbing is where the safety levers are. Your hand is on them. If you move it down, it stays down.

I can see how it could happen, I just don't think it's that hard to avoid (pull back, not down) or that hard to remediate if it does happen (part of the clearance drill should be to flick the safety off).

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Our next illustration is the HK USP series. These comments also apply to the HK45. This photo shows a USP with the hammer all the way down. The only way to get here is by dry-firing or manually - the decocker does not lower the hammer this far.