Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Dave McCracken, Aug 14, 2011.
Link? Every place I have been lists it, but is out of stock.
Good string. I especially like the first couple pages which was essentially discussing what amounts to the use of deadly force and the interpretation of what stopping an attack entails.
Those of use who have served in the military learned that deadly force is that amount of force which I know, or should know, will cause serious bodily harm or death, to be used as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed. And we learned all the times when deadly force is authorized...but the only time it's really applicable to us as civilians is when you fear for your life or the life of another. (Yes, I'm perfectly aware that many states allow the protection of property here...that's a legal distinction. In my opinion, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's always the moral or ethical thing to do. I leave that as your call, based on your own laws and morals.)
The key here is "fear for your life or the life of another".
To that end, we don't draw a weapon on another human being unless we truely believe it's a "him or me" situation...that either yourself or another human being is going to suffer serious bodily harm or death if you do not.
Yes, the mere fact that you have drawn a weapon MAY deter the aggressor.
Yes, the mere fact that you may shoot and miss MAY deter the aggressor.
Yes, the mere fact that you may wound MIGHT deter the aggressor.
But these things are incidental to the decision to apply deadly force and they cannot be depended upon. When circumstances conspire to the point where the weapon is drawn, you're saying that applying deadly force is REQUIRED. And THAT is the mind set which is required until the threat no longer exists.
When attacked in such a life-threatening scenario, you don't have time, nor any business, to do anything but apply the maximum amount of force you are able, in the most effective way possible.
If, during this process, the attack is stopped without involving a death...great. Then the need for deadly force at that time no longer exists and it should no longer be applied. (Though you should be on your guard.)
I love the OP because it focuses on the reality of what it means to effectively and reliably apply deadly force with a shotgun. You don't go half-measures, because anything less than deadly is not something that you can rely upon. You don't rely on folk tales about home loaded rounds with dimes or salt. You don't use unproven ammunition obviously hyped for marketing purposes.
And you DON'T go into an application of deadly force expecting less than deadly means to work, nor do you do it believing that the law will look upon you fondly if you do.
I prefer 00 buck in my 12 ga. I will use whatever I have handy, regardless. And I will not stop applying deadly force (by any means) until the threat is ended or I am no longer able to defend myself.
Tried that 3" 4 Buck today.
Far too much recoil for a home defense load, and the pattern wasn't anything impressive.
Back to good old 00 for me.
3 inches is too much
3 inch would be too much for me also, I limit myself to 2 3/4 #4 buck , 00 buck and slugs. As far as I'm concerned I see no need for a 3 inch shell but then I'm not shooting ducks or turkeys
I'll keep that in mind if I am ever given the opportunity to buy some buckshot. :banghead:
Since the largest shot I can find is #5 turkey I will stick with a 3 inch shell to give those little suckers as much umph as I can.
Someday things will get better and I will be able to get some buckshot.
Well I got 3" because that's all there was. I usually use 2-3/4" anyway. Might get some 2-3/4" #4 and #1 Buck, but... ehh... I'm happy with 00 as it sits.
Stopped by the Coop today for hay and found out they sell ammo!
I'm up to 3", #4 turkey shot!
Little by little I'm getting closer to buckshot!
I think Natchezss has some 3" 000 20 gauge, if you're interested.
At least when I looked a couple days ago.
Great price on a box of 2 3/4", 20 Ga, #3 buck. $4.49 for 5 rounds. Shipping TOTALLY sucks! $18.33 for one box by UPS ground!
UPS seems pricier than usual. Midway wanted $19 to ship a holster, a Glock connector, and a small powder scale... Boyd's wanted $18 to ship two screws for my Savage.
Success! LGS had 2-3/4 inch, 20 GA, #3 buckshot for $4.99 per 5 round box.
Lots of good info here, but I was wondering if there is a good "practice"
round that won't break the bank... Saw a case (250) of #7 birdshot for
$70 (Estate Brand) and wondered if it would be a waste of time? Different
recoil ot just totally different patterning? LMK!
You definitely want to practice with what you're going to use, when it comes to shotguns. You'll find that everything patterns differently, so try to train with what you are going to use. I used to use Federal XM12700 before it went up in price. Used to be $99 for 175 rounds plus a new ammo can. Now I think it's about $150. IF you can find it in-stock. Of course if you're into the FliteControl stuff, that's a little harder to buy in bulk or for a good price.
And fyi, you can get 100 round boxes of birdshot for $20 at walmart. 3 of them would be $60 and you'd get 300 rounds.
To the Slug guys, If I am going to launch a single projectile I prefer to to it from a platform designed for that purpose. Some thing with sights and rifling.
At across the room distances shot size is less important than shot placement. The room broom myth has led many to believe all they have to do it stick the muzzle in a crack in a door an anything in the room will be hit. Not so. At 10 to 20 feet the shot will still be tightly bunched you need to aim. Point an pray is not going to cut it.
I will practice with the intended use ammo!
Yup. The nice thing about shotguns is that it doesn't really matter what you shoot (wally world birdshot aside), it's all expensive. So no reason NOT to shoot what you plan to use lol.
Well. Our home is protected by 20 gauge #3 buckshot. Longest shot to defend my family is 40 feet..
Pray we are all safe from predators.
A little disheartened
I biught a sweet Sroger 20 ga SxS as a back-up gun for ny 12 ga bd especally because both the wife and I have weak left sholders from injuries. At the beginning of this string I read that you should use no buckshot larger THAN #2 in a 20 ga! Right now #4 is really hard to find with the ammo panic.
as I said. the 20 is a back-up and loaded with a heavy #4 Phesant load, does some real damage at 15 ft! The wife can handle the recoil of the plesant shooting Uplander So untill I find that #4 Buckshot we will have to use it with Phesant loads and slugs (I dunno about her and slugs???)
I just mounted a slip-om KickEEZ. I opted for the slip-on because in the past slip-on's have giben me a better recoil reduction. It;s like the air pocket adds to the dampening effect! Heck. get all you can when it comes to recoil reduction!
The Stoger SxS came with a good factory mounted pad that honestly reduces Target loads and
felt recoil to that of my RWS 52 Magnum Air rifle!
Teamwork seems to be the answer to home defense for us!
I foresee the need for some pretty well thought out pratice.
We have to divide the house into defensible quadrents. Teamwork!
load my own.
i load mine in federal gold medal hulls with 12 0-buck or 15 #1 buck. hope i never have to use it on anyone, but if i have to i think it will work just fine.
^^ I thought the use of handloads was pretty universally discouraged due to legality issues?
Nope. Seems this is far more urban legend than actual fact.
People would do far better understanding the laws regarding the use of deadly force in their jurisdiction and making darn sure they meet the wickets for a justifiable shooting should all else fail them. It's these details which are far more likely to fry someone on a self-defense shooting in court.
Here's a short string I found on this:
The biggest issue with handloads seems to be more from a forensics standpoint than from a legal attack by a lawyer. Forensics experts have a much more difficult time pasting together all the details of a shooting from handloads of non-standard factory loads or otherwise unknown variables.
FWIW, In my Mossberg 500 12ga, I have 6x (1 chamber, 5 mag) #4 buck. Read many places that #4-#1 buck can stop the perp without too much peripheral damage. Larger goes through the body and takes out your water heater etc. Gun is hot (but with safety on) at all times. Funny story: had just come from Sporting Clays range and swapped 28 field barrel for 18.5 tactical. Doorbell rang. Was a solicitor (despite multiple signs). Walked to door with 12ga. 68# dog was right next to me. Opened door, asked solicitor whether he was unable to read the signs. When he saw me (I look like a Viking Berserker), 6# coal black dog, and 12ga locked and cocked, he rapidly retreated. I suspect I am no longer on his solicitation list.
Lowest I would go is #1 buck, which size and pellet count is a good load for man. 0 buck, then 00 buck are also good.
Here is something to throw in there. OK, you hear the clumsy boots up at the top. And two more pairs in the kitchen. You slowly approach, and peek out as the suspect is looking into the first room, and see he is armed with a Kalashnikov. Now what? Do you feel sufficient enough with what you have loaded? What do you do now? You have about a second to react. What are you going to do? If someone is going to perpetrate a home invasion, it's a good chance they will be armed and have accomplices.
Love that mental picture,
Viking Berserker, 68# coal black dog LOL
Found a GREAT SD round!
Noble Sport Mini-Buck!
Reduced recoil,. 9 count - 00 Buck, 1-3/4" long,
10 count for $7.70 !!!
I always shoot to stop, not kill. If the slug in the heart happens to kill the subject, Oh Well.
I presently have 10 25 round boxes of 2 3/4" 9 pellet 12ga shells left over from the Rodney King Riots. However my main SD weapon is my Sig 226 357Sig or .40 depending on which barrel I have in it.
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