Denied Renewal of My CWP

[cerberus]

Get a good Lawyer

If your really wanting to fight this stupid SC deal. I sure would spend a little money on a good Lawyer. Just filing the appeals are not going to get your permit renewed. They have already made that pretty clear.

 

[atek3]

If you fight it, you will eventually win assuming you have the big guns on your side. Whether it is worth your time and money is something else, knowing government it will take a lot of both.

atek3

 

[mnrivrat]

It would also be interesting to find out the specific criteria used to deny for traffic violations . Is there a written formula or is the criteria subjective and up to the permit issuer ?

Mentioned in your denials as the specific cause for denial ,the criteria is not detailed.

How many violations _____? over what period of time ____ ? For how long does the violation remain a consideration _____ ?

Is the specific information written into the law _______?

 

[Top_Notch]

Very interesting. Come to Illinois where they don't even need a reason to NOT allow you to carry...but I digress.

Two points I'd like to make.

Since he has already acknowledged that "many more people are injured and killed in traffic incidents than by firearms" I would highlight that the State has not seen fit to revoke you Drivers' License, and denying you CWP based on your driving creates a disparity in how the State is determining what constitutes responsible behavior.

Be careful here, as driving is not a right. You may up losing your license if you push this path.

But, to me, a more interesting aspect, that I have not seen, is what would you have to do in order not to be denied based on past misdemeanor traffic violations. How much longer would you have to drive citation free in order to be allowed a permit? I don't see that question asked nor answered anywhere. I'm sure they must know what it would be since they know what it takes for denial. And since it is not arbitrary, let them tell you what it is. Minamally, you'll know how long to stay in the slow lane in order to make your appeal.

 

[Smurfslayer]

get a lawyer...

Don't pass go. Don't send your second appeal until you've talked to a firearms saavy lawyer. The fact that they are misdemeanor convictions is significant, however, there may be reason for hope in your traffic code...

How long may an insurance company hold you to higher rates for traffic infractions?

<soapbox> This, ladies and gentlemen, is why you ALWAYS go to court to contest a traffic infraction. Continue, continue, continue until they won't give you any more continuances. Hire a lawyer, and throw EVERYTHING at the court. Typically, you cannot introduce new evidence on appeal. Leave nothing to chance, and ALWAYS make the state prove you guilty. There's NOTHING in it for you to admit guilt. zip. zero. nada.
</soapbox>

If your insurance companies can't uses old traffic infractions against you, then you may make the correlation - why should law enforcement on what is at best a remotely related item.

2nd, the Capt. opened the door to 'accidents' - DID any of your tickets involve a collision in any way? If not, raise that issue. Point out specifics of these cases - empty roads, non inclement weather, etc.

Raise the constitutional issues - use the state constitution, concealed weapon permits are a privilege, not a right. <-- Please - no philosophical flames before you read Nunn v. State(GA)...

I would also follow up on the "objective standard" being used to evaluate who is not a safe risk... If there's no written standard, it's subjective. possibly arbitrary and capricious.

Definitely seek assistance from GOSC and GRSC...

SC must want to experience a gun owner boycott...

Remember SLED and SC LEOs - Professional courtesy for LEO, Professional courtesy for CCW. Learn it. Live it.

 

[Leatherneck]

mnrivrat makes a valid point. If the police are going to restrict your legal rights, then they doggone well better have objective, written standards that apply to everyone.

I only have one minor objection to your original appeal, Silver:

Lastly, I am a former United States Marine

One is either a Marine, or one is not, Brother.

TC
TFL Survivor

 

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's USMC Silver-

Sorry you are having too jump through all those "loop-holes" to
get your CCW reinstated. Boy, whats this old world coming to?
I would have to second the motion to get the N.R.A.'s legal aid
division involved. I will share a related story with you.

As reported in the American Rifleman magazine a few
years ago:

A small town, up-state police officer was traveling through
believe it or not, North Carolina a few years ago at a rate
of speed estimated at 85 mph. When spotted by a friendly
NC state trooper, the PO's vechile was pulled over on the
interstate. The trooper informed the PO why he was being
stopped; and said, " Boy, you ain't got nuth'in in this here
car that you don't want me to know about do you"? With
that, the PO identified himself as a New York PO. And said,
"Yes, I have a duty weapon in the trunk of my car". The
trooper said, "Raise your trunk, and lets take a look". So,
the PO complied with the troopers demands. When the
PO's duty weapon was dug out of his luggage; the NC
state trooper promptly confiscated it, and placed the PO
under arrest for carrying a handgun without a license!

Well needless to say, the poor PO was carted off to the
cross bar hotel where he was to await the judge. After
three days, the PO was carried before the judge, and
found quilty of the charge. So, the jailer goes into the
prisoners property and retrieves enough funds to pay
all fines, court cost, etc. He then pays the token for the
impounded vechile; and is set free without his firearm.

When the PO asked about his duty weapon, he was told
it was condemed by the judge; therefore he wasn't going
to get it back. Thats when the PO contacted the NRA, and
got them involved. It took a total of 3+ years, but the they
had to return the weapon to the PO's department.

So moral of the story is, YES the N.R.A. can be of help
sometimes! I certainly hope it works for you.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[USMCsilver]

Leatherneck ~quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lastly, I am a former United States Marine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One is either a Marine, or one is not, Brother.

I tend to disagree. There is no such thing as an ex-Marine unless you are talking about one that got a dishonorable discharge. The word "former" Marine is correct when refering to prior service. If I stated I were a Marine, that would give the idea that I am currently enlisted.

 

[USMCsilver]

Smurfslayer, I've got to say that you take the cake.

Those are all valid points and great suggestions.

I am going to let this happen one more time, and then I'll see what I can do as far as legal help goes.

I mean, what do I do, just e-mail SC GrassRoots and/or the NRA and tell them about the situation or do I get someone on the phone?

I am a NRA member and will be joining Grass Roots here real soon. Just waiting on an e-mail response to a question I posed.

Thank you very much for the advice Smurf, and all the others!

 

[CentralTexas]

Does your state have an open records policy?

I'd request a list of all police officers that traffic misdemeanors and go from there....
Nevermind I just remembered they don't get tickets etc.

Good luck on it all though!

CT

 

[Rickstir]

The best idea I've read here is to get your state representative involved. Don't know how SC is, but if you have state senator get him also. If one is more pro-2nd amendment go with them. This is what they do. Don't let the fact that you are a vetran escape the conversation.

Also you might prevail upon one of your instructors, maybe your advisor in the CJ program to write a character reference for you.

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

What a load of crap is right. EVERYONE speeds only some get caught!! Is the CMP that inept????

This is very true. But that means that for someone to get caught and receive that many summonses in that amount of time they must have been doing an awful lot of speeding and moving quite fast. That's why drunk driving charges are looked at so seriously by insurance companies. They figure that for you to actually get CAUGHT driving drunk you had to do it a whole lot more than once.

That being said, however, using traffic tickets as a reason to deny a CWP is just utterly ridiculous. I wish you good luck in having this overturned and I second the call to get an attorney ASAP before you send in another appeal. They know the law a lot better than you and you might end up digging yourself in a deeper hole.

 

[Mark13]

It sounds like someone doesn't like this guy. No CCW for minor traffic offenses? Does any other state deny CCW for something like this?

 

[TheOtherOne]

Can't you get traffic records expunged after so many years? I would check your state laws to see how/if you can do it.

You might want to check the fine print on the CCW laws too because there might be something that says your expunged records are taken into account. Because, of course, when the government says expunge it doesn't actually mean expunge.

 

[bogie]

Pull out all the stops on this one - Also, keep in mind that anything that the fellow puts in writing _may_ possibly be used in a libel suit - If he's maintaining that you're a hazard to yourself and others, that'll prove to be very detrimental to pursuing your chosen career. Of course, you'll have to prove that you are not a hazard, but that doesn't sound as if it is the case.

Sue his butt. Make it a hobby, if nothing else.

 

[JoeWang]

Did you include a copy of your honorable discharge from the service?

It doesn't look like it.

Anyway, these people are elected or have bosses who are elected. Elections are upcoming. Visit their bosses and their opponents.

I'm surprised around GA how suddenly pro-gun every politician has become.

JW

 

[strambo]

So moral of the story is, YES the N.R.A. can be of help

Nah, the moral of that story is NEVER CONSENT TO A SEARCH!!! It cannot possibly help you. A cop has no PC to search your car just because they are giving you a ticket. Just say no!

" Boy, you ain't got nuth'in in this here car that you don't want me to know about, do you?"

-NOPE!

Good luck USMC Silver, I hope it works out.

 

[rayra]

Find out what the LAWS are in your jurisdiction regarding issuance of CWP. The spicific guidelines and leeway the licensing authority has to abide by, then be sure they are following it. If 'speeding' does not fall within those guidelines, ram it up their ass.
Failing that, contact your jurisdictions civil authorities, councilmen, whatever, and make it very clear that you are being screwed, and that if / when you are attacked in circumstances where a CWP would have material affected your safety, you WILL sue your jurisdiction's asses off for their nonsense denials today.

 

[Moparmike]

USMC_Silver, if this doesn't pan out for you, get an AZ non-resident permit. According to South Carolina's Packing.org page, they accept the AZ NR-permit. But according to AZ's page, it says that AZ-NR permit isnt accepted in SC. Confusing.

I would check it out and make sure that SC honors that permit, and get it in writing. Have a friend check it out. Hell, have an AZ HighRoader snail-mail SC and see if they do, and then have the letter fowarded to you. Just keep the relavant excerpts. If you cant join them, beat them.

Good luck in anycase.

 

[saddlebum]

tenn. nonresident permits are good in sc aren't they?

 

[BryanP]

Saddlebum,

South Carolina recognizes the permits of Tennessee, North Carolina, Arkansas and Wyoming. Unfortunately SC only recognizes them if held by a resident of that particular state and no other. See the South Carolina page on Packing.org for more details.

Moparmike, you misread the info on Packing.org. Arizona is listed under "States that honor this state's Permit/License:", meaning that Arizona will honor a South Carolina permit, but not the other way around.

 

[spacemanspiff]

what does the section of your states law state about how an applicant for a CWP is approved? i wouldnt go off of the LEO's say-so, believe it when you read it for yourself.

example, my state (alaska) does count the number of misdemeanors, but only with a few year period prior to the application being reviewed.

it may help that this is a 'may issue' state.

in any case, i think your best efforts will be to get the law changed, so that it only looks back maybe 3 years on misdemeanors. we can help you out, emailing state representatives until they see there is enough squeaks for this wheel to get greased.

your appeals are going to fall on deaf ears if the LEO is truly following hte letter of the law, even if that law is asinine or even unconstitutional.

 

[sumpnz]

All right, I haven't read all responses as that takes too long.

I DO agree that SEVEN convictions in 8 years is irresponsible on your part, and I wouldnt want to insure your car,...

I did want to respond to this, and expand on it a little. Yes, if I were an insurance company I would probably deny you coverage if I knew this about you. BUT, many states have laws that your traffic tickets can only be considered for the purposes of determining your ability to get coverage and the level of the insurance premiums if they occured in the past 3 years. Anything older than that cannot legally be considered. Also, in some states the points on your drivers license expire after 3 years. You should look into whether or not SC has a law along those lines on the books and use that as a potentail avenue to get the tickets older than 3 (or however many) years withdrawn from consideration WRT you CWP renewal. That could get no more than the 2 tickets from 2001 under consideration, and possibly eliminate one or both depending on when in 2001 you recieved them.

 

[USMCsilver]

I just got done reading SC's Code of Laws http://www.scstatehouse.net/code/t23c031.htm and cannot find anything pertinent to my case except what is below:

(D) Denial of an application may be appealed. The appeal must be in writing and state the basis for the appeal. The appeal must be submitted to the Chief of SLED within thirty days from the date the denial notice is received. The chief shall issue a written decision within ten days from the date the appeal is received. An adverse decision shall specify the reasons for upholding the denial and may be reviewed by the Administrative Law Judge Division pursuant to Article 5, Chapter 23 of Title 1, upon a petition filed by an applicant within thirty days from the date of delivery of the division's decision.

 

[gripper]

This sounds like the way the Commonwealth of Ma. shafted me back in 1999.I had an old OUI record,not a disqualifier at the time of tjhe cases disposition. The passage of Ch180,a few years later gave the Cbhiefs of Police broad authority to "interpret"the statuts. When my renewal for my LTC came up;you guessed it. I lost just about everything trying to fight it ,but ht e judges right up to the Ma Court of Appeals would consider nothing but the Chief's actions in view of the CURRENT statute,never mind the fact that he was reaching back in time to before the law took effect in Oct 1998.They basically said that since it was done "administratively",that retroacxtive(ex post facto)intterpretive action was OK on the Chiefs part.We have a reform that may give me a chance when it kicks in in October,butI'll have to wait and see...God I hate these @ssholes.My case could be found under DuPont v Davis,originating in Ayer District Court in the spring of 99,and having its last stop at Middlesex Superior Court(Lowell) in 2000.Ma. Court of Appeals had it in 02,,but took no action.If I made it to the US court,I'd probably have a slightly better chance,but its a coin operated machine;the enemy does not have to pay their own way. :banghead: :banghead: