Denver police stock up on pepper guns, $25 million of "security equipment"

[thegriz]

Source Article

Vendor Website

Denver stocks up on pepper weapon
City orders guns that fire special plastic balls
By Sara Burnett, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Tuesday, June 17, 2008

Denver police are stocking up on guns that fire a pepper spray-like substance instead of bullets - a less-lethal weapon used to disperse crowds - in advance of the Democratic National Convention.

The department recently ordered 88 Mark IV launchers and projectiles at a cost "in the low six figures," the company that makes the weapons stated in a news release Monday.

The request was for delivery in advance of the DNC, according to Louisville- based Security With Advanced Technology Inc.

The convention, scheduled for Aug. 25 to 28 at the Pepsi Center, is expected to draw thousands of protesters to sites throughout Denver.

The city received a $50 million federal grant for security. A senior adviser to Mayor John Hickenlooper has said the city plans to spend up to half that amount on equipment, with the rest going to pay officers.

But the city has refused to disclose how it is spending the money, prompting the American Civil Liberties Union last month to file a civil lawsuit.

The court filing alleges the city is violating the Colorado Open Records Act.

City officials say releasing the information is "contrary to the public interest" because it could disclose important tactical information, potentially jeopardizing security.

A city spokesperson could not be reached for comment Monday. Meanwhile, speculation about what the city is buying has run rampant.

Some organizers of protest groups believe police are buying extended-range Tasers and weapons that incapacitate people with high-intensity sound.

The Mark IV weapons the city ordered recently fire plastic balls filled with powder that's "like a combination of cayenne pepper and baby powder," the manufacturer said.

It can be fired from up to 100 feet away, said Ben Cook, director of Veritas, a subsidiary of Security With Advanced Technology.

The balls burst open on impact. While the powder will incapacitate a person like pepper spray, it doesn't cause some of the more severe reactions, Cook said.

Quote from vendor website:

* .68 Caliber
* 15 Round Magazine
* Air Supply in the Magazine
* One to one scale to an M4
* Point target Accurate to 50 Meters
* Easily index between rounds at the chamber
* Hard Target / Area engagement to 100 Meters
* Accepts most aftermarket accessories for M4/M16

The MK-IV Less-Lethal system was developed from the ground up as a weapons grade platform, not a converted toy. The system breaks down for maintenance the same as the M4 and the tool kit is housed inside the launcher’s receiver. Indexing different rounds or clearing the weapon is done using the M4 style charging handle. With the precision barrel and modern ballistics, the MK-IV can allow the operator to start engaging point targets from a distance of 50 meters. In riot situations, multiple officers can engage the ground in front of the crowd from 100 meters, keeping the officers out of range of those throwing objects. At 400+ fps, the MK-IV has knockdown power to spare, but our projectile technology maintains a truly less-lethal weapons system. The MK-IV does not utilize a bulky external air tank. The air source is contained in the magazine. This significantly decreases the complexity of deployment logistics and makes reloading the weapon faster and easier for operators. Just like with standard weapons systems, all you need is loaded magazines.

Live Round Projectiles

*
Contains PAVA powder
*
3x more active agents than current projectiles
*
Lighter fill has longer hang time and smaller particulates making it more effective
*
50 projectiles per container

It will be interesting to see if any of these are used. I guess the old rubber bullet and fire hose treatment is history. I would like to know if these rifles and ammo are available to the public and what they cost.

 

[Eric F]

great I am glad I am not a tax payer there. Then again they likely got some sort of federal grant for this so its my money again. All this less than leathal crap came around as a result of political correctnes and the softening of america as started in the 50's and 60's. I say use real guns and just shoot the person. On the other hand I would love to pop my neighbors ever barking dustmop dog with one of these it would be way more fun than using my canned air horn from my boat.

 

[ilbob]

City officials say releasing the information is "contrary to the public interest" because it could disclose important tactical information, potentially jeopardizing security.

Tactical information like who's pockets got lined.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Did they misplace all their shotguns?
Maybe they just want new whiz-bang toys that they don't have to foot the bill for themselves.

 

[Zak Smith]

I am pretty sure I saw this at the SHOT Show. They also have hard, solid balls used for "glass breaking." Ouch.

 

[Ske1etor]

Basically a really overpriced, less technologically advanced paintball gun...

 

[un_lucky]

Sounds like a good investment to me. I've used pepper balls and they are no joke.

 

[MarkDido]

The attendees at the DNC Convention in Denver should be allowed the same level of protection as the residents, which is none.

 

[coloradokevin]

Federal money is paying for the DNC specific stuff, and the pepperball guns are basically paintball guns with pepper-laden "paint" balls. The glass breaker balls aren't used on people, they are used on glass (hence the name).

This is far from top-secret technology, and most of the departments in the metro area have had these types of less-lethals for years (at the very least, my dept has). The DNC will involve every department in the metro area, in joint cooperation with Denver.

The pepperball technology keeps evolving ever so slightly each year. The first "guns" we had were basically identical to paintball markers, and could even hold regular paint balls. Then we got a few pistol style ones that used CO2 cartridges. The rifle-like ones that the OP showed pictures of were brought in to play by many departments, simply so that officers could have a system where the controls were similar to the weapons that they were accustomed to (an AR-15, if the picture wasn't obvious enough).

(they are still just air-powered glorified paintball guns).

Nothing secret about them, or where the money came from.

At this point the media knows very little of what is going on for the DNC, in terms of security and/or LE response. Most of the strategic information is currently classified, for a variety of legitimate reasons. As such, most of us in LE are not at liberty to discuss those matters at this time. The stuff the media is reporting in news articles is only the stuff we've released to them... Then they take that information, and make it sound like it is some big deep-dark secret before sharing it with the public. In short, there is no conspiracy around my department... Just a long hot summer, with a lot of cancelled days off in August.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

The DNC will involve every department in the metro area, in joint cooperation with Denver.

Is rioting one of their campaign promises? Must be one heck of an after party. Party don't stop till the pepperballs drop.

 

[bogie]

Guys, I'm expecting something more like the radical left end of the Democrats going completely off the wall - remember 1968?

Considering how they import "protesters" to things like banking and financial conventions, heck, this is a no-brainer. They're gonna have a sizable herd ready to manipulate.

 

[RP88]

wait...they're EXPECTING rioting to occur at the DNC? Wow.

 

[proud2deviate]

They spent $100,000+ on frigging paintball guns?! And just 88 of them?

 

[Slotback]

Well no one is expecting good behavior out of the "visitors" for the DNC.

 

[.cheese.]

Aside from the fact that they're overpriced, I think it's a good idea as far as less-lethal force is concerned.

The only thing that concerns me is that incident where a girl who I must have gone to college with my freshman year, but I don't think I knew her - was killed at the Red Sox game after one of these balls went through her eye socket.

As long as proper training to ensure these are used as safely as possible is mandated for the officers who will use this weapon, I think it's a good idea.

 

[Standing Wolf]

The city received a $50 million federal grant for security.

Yippee! Free money!

 

[coloradokevin]

wait...they're EXPECTING rioting to occur at the DNC? Wow.

Lets just say that there are a number of groups that aren't really fond of the democratic process, as used in our country.


Here's a short listing of some of the many groups of idiots that I am predicting we'll see at the DNC... Remember, these are just the ones with public faces! The Anarchist Black Block types were present at the last DNC, and probably will be this time (just Google Black Block LA DNC)... Sadly for them, they are poorly marketed without an official website boo-hoo.

http://www.recreate68.org/

http://dncdisruption08.org/?page_id=79

http://www.myspace.com/unconventionaldenver

http://www.unconventionalaction.org/strategies/strategies.html

Needless to say, I'm not convinced that the event will be without riots of some type. But, time will tell.

And, needless to say, none of this is classified information... All of these sites are freely advertising their tactics on the internet, and you can easily find them if you Google search for something like "DNC protests Denver", or similar terms!

 

[ripper225]

there will probably be 'plants' that will try to incite kaos so that they can use their new toys

 

[coloradokevin]

there will probably be 'plants' that will try to incite kaos so that they can use their new toys

Right.

It couldn't possibly be that the groups that are openly advertising a desire to cause trouble would be causing it. It must be us gov'mt types planting people in the crowds to stir the pot!

And, it is "chaos", not "kaos".


But, back to the gun-related part of this issue.

I really like what police departments have done to modernize the pepperball stuff. Some agencies (with cushy budgets) have even put optics on their AR-like pepperball rifles. The rifles are more accurate these days, and the sights are better. As such, the risk of unintentional injury to non-combative parties within a crowd is greatly reduced. It is a change in tactics from the "good ol' days" of crowd control (instead of "carpet bombing" a crowd, the officers involved in these situations can respond with precision strikes against the instigators of trouble). Lets face it, even most hostile crowds are composed of probably 80% passive protestors, and 20% rioters. These technological advances allow targeting of specific individuals in a way that wasn't possible many years ago!

Not unlike the technological advantages that we all enjoy on our sporting firearms these days!

 

[DFW1911]

This is something of a generalization, but Denver Cops seem to love pepper spray. I was here for the Bronco's back to back Superbowl wins, and received a full blast of the stuff...while walking down some random side-street going to a friends party.

I was about as much of a threat as a squirrel. But there were three of them and just couldn't wait to nail me. I'd say the closest rioter to me at that point was about 3/4 of a mile away.

They also pepper sprayed a girl trying to open the outer door of her building to get inside out of the danger. She actually ended up winning some money.

Oh yeah, this will be interesting!!!

Take care,
DFW1911

 

[ZombieHunter]

It's kids like Ripper that make me ashamed of my low post count. Ugh...good job Denver.

As far as 88 paintball guns costing $100k...easily. My paintball gun was $1100 after all was said and done. That's for a fairly mass produced higher-end gun. These are special ordered, low productions highly specialized markers? Using highly specialized ammo...low 6 figures sounds about right. I remember reading back in the day when paintball was first starting that ammo was like 50 cents per ball...

Good job CO for puting the grant money to decent use....just make sure not to hit any of your plants >.<

 

[bogie]

I don't Denver will be all that isolated either... If Hillary manages to whip something out, or if Obama gets caught boinking a choirboy or something, and he doesn't end up with the nomination, we're going to have some cities exploding... And then, if he ends up with the nomination, when McCain beats him, we're also going to have problems around the country. A LOT of folks just aren't thinking all that clearly on the election, and they're being fanned hotter by the left side...

 

[SageMonkey]

I hope they work out better than wooden baton rounds, which officers in Oakland fired directly at protesters, rather than the ground in front of them. At least these seem less likely to result in massive lawsuits if misused. They could save the 100k right there if one suit is avoided.

As for rioting, wasn't Rush Limbaugh suggesting people incite a riot at the DNC? I thought that the Mayor of Denver even threatened to have him arrested for said incitement should he show up at the event?

 

[Caimlas]

I really like what police departments have done to modernize the pepperball stuff. Some agencies (with cushy budgets) have even put optics on their AR-like pepperball rifles. The rifles are more accurate these days, and the sights are better. As such, the risk of unintentional injury to non-combative parties within a crowd is greatly reduced. It is a change in tactics from the "good ol' days" of crowd control (instead of "carpet bombing" a crowd, the officers involved in these situations can respond with precision strikes against the instigators of trouble). Lets face it, even most hostile crowds are composed of probably 80% passive protestors, and 20% rioters. These technological advances allow targeting of specific individuals in a way that wasn't possible many years ago!

I'm not a psychologist, but this approach seems counter-productive to me. Here's my take:

The active rioters are fueled by their strength in numbers. For every rioter, there's probably one or two more in the crowd who's cowardly, but wants to join in.

Spray them all with a water hose, or disperse them with rubber bullets, and (at least) the vast majority of the crowd will disperse (provided that we're using a 1:2:5 or so ratio of riotersotential rioters:along for the ride). That decreases the mob's fervor and, ultimately, quickly diffuses the situation. The few violent stragglers can be more quickly rounded up and arrested as there's less of a crowd to deal with.

On the other hand, if 3 or four people start throwing bottles (or the whole mass of 'violent' rioters, for that matter), and they all start getting shot with pepper, what's going to happen? Those who are not shot will get incensed and motivated to perpetrate violence against "the man". Now, not only do you have a bunch of pepper-sprayed people (who will recover in fairly short order, and likely be even more angry), but you've got twice as many angry rioters to deal with - and, more than likely, you'll have spurred on the idle rioter's "sense of justice" against The Man, and they'll either join into active rioting, or at least edge closer towards doing so.

Anyway, that's my take. If, indeed, there is going to be violent riots, this seems like the wrong approach to take. I'd at least want a fire truck on hand/standby, as well as a couple pepper grenades per squad of police...

 

[Caimlas]

when McCain beats him

Sadly, I think you're disillusioned on this matter. But, time will tell.

But then, I think riots have probably been largely averted simply by Obama getting the de-facto nomination.