Denver police stock up on pepper guns, $25 million of "security equipment"

[sm]

bogie makes an excellent point.

Denver will not be an isolated location for folks to get into full tilt boogie nutzoid!

-This is an election year.
Folks started getting riled up 5 minutes after the last National election 4 years ago.

-Iraq, Afghanistan, the price of gas, diesel, grain, lumber, gold going over $800 and ounce, the price of all metals increasing, natural disasters such as tornadoes, floods, forest fires, ...etc.

-Crime has a tendency to increase during the summer months.
Folk just heated, tempers flare and react when the weather is hot.
Add more "fuel" to the fire, as I mentioned up above and...

Society has been heating up to explode.
History shows this.

DNC meeting is a "great excuse" for folks express themselves and get attention.
This would happen, in any location.

Smaller "explosions" are bound to happen leading up to DNC meeting in Denver.

Now while I have my thoughts on the monies, where it came from and what it is being spent on, I suspect we will see other cities employ similar measures to be ready for the smaller explosions we are about to see in the near future as well.


One might think about taking steps now, and improving on preparedness for themselves and families, with what is sure to happen in the near future.


I am not suggesting folks go out and buy paintball guns and paintballs either.

Look up "Listening to Katrina" and investigate for you and yours what really is needed with serious situations, and be better able to deal with it.

 

[coloradokevin]

I'm not a psychologist, but this approach seems counter-productive to me. Here's my take:

The active rioters are fueled by their strength in numbers. For every rioter, there's probably one or two more in the crowd who's cowardly, but wants to join in.

Spray them all with a water hose, or disperse them with rubber bullets, and (at least) the vast majority of the crowd will disperse (provided that we're using a 1:2:5 or so ratio of riotersotential rioters:along for the ride). That decreases the mob's fervor and, ultimately, quickly diffuses the situation. The few violent stragglers can be more quickly rounded up and arrested as there's less of a crowd to deal with.

I appreciate your sentiment on this one! I was mostly refering to the situations where an otherwise peaceful crowd is infiltrated with some not-so-peaceful folks.

As another poster pointed out, we've had a few incidents nationwide where innocents have been hit with less lethals, and sustained serious injury (I remember one instance from a number of years ago, when I was living elsewhere and not in LE... a girl was walking with a football game out-crowd, and the situation got ugly. She took a knee-knocker in the eye, and lost the eye).

Granted, some of these people were asking for it when they decided to stick around and "watch" the riot after a dispersal order was given. But, still, police departments are always looking for ways to reduce liability... and I don't mind an option that allows us to more specifically target individuals (more versatility, at the very least).

If it was up to me, the fire hose approach would get some good use at most riots. After all, who doesn't like water sports?

 

[Catherine]

Waste of taxpayers money in my opinion. Cha ching!

Same deal as when Homeland INsecurity gave all of those cities, towns, states, etc. more $$$ for more "equipment". WASTE of money!

Both parties have been known to use 'plants' in crowds along with the usual regular folks and FILL IN THE BLANK rabble-rousers.

This is a common name for a 'plant'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

You see and hear comments on the radio and other mass media sources about people calling for all kinds of STUFF. It depends on WHO says it and IF that person is 'famous' or not if something is done about it. If you or I said these things or did these things at a convention or ANYWHERE else... the swat teams, Homeland INsecurity, the FBI, police squads, any alphabet agency, etc. would be on us like you no what. Our doors would be broken down! If someone FAMOUS says it... tough cookies. You can bet that you will have 'plants' at both conventions. Heck, 'they' had to admit that they did this in Canada, other USA events, our joke of 'debates', etc. - NO news there!

MORE taxpayer wasted money.

Do the peons, the citizens of that town and the people attending this convention get to have such goodies? After all... we would want a LEVEL playing field, eh?

This goes for BOTH parties, their conventions and the taxpayer paid protection for ALL people.

Catherine

 

[Catherine]

PS

PS

I remember those old riots from race riots, political riots, burning up and destruction of cities and OTHER people's property including their own property, etc. Summer of 1950 baby here.

I was NEVER in one (Riot.) and I chose NOT to be in one.

I have never been in a 'physical fight' either. Worded ones and debates = yes. Standing up for things = yes, in many ways but not 'physical' with hands.

I was taught to RESPECT other people's property as my own and NEVER to litter too.

The Golden Rule taught by Jesus Christ and it is in many other religions was drilled into us. Do unto others...

My friends of all colors, religions, socio/economic backgrounds, nationalities, LEGAL immigrants and citizens, etc. were taught as I was. MOST of us were the same in our feelings of RESPECT towards one another even IF we did not believe the same WAY in every ISSUE - social or political. Geesh, whatever happened to that in this day and age?


My late parents used to tell us that if we ever did anything that stupid or wrong... don't count on bail money. They meant it too.

That did NOT mean that you could not fight politically with your VOTE, your letters, your peaceful marches, your boycotts, handing out literature, discussing issues, etc.

I will not say what I wanted to DO, did NOT DO, answered some people, etc. when some nasty people said things to me as a USN Bride circa Vietnam time outside of Norfolk towards Ocean View, VA - my tiny beach home. The D.C. and MD marches, treatment and other bs. Another thing gets me about some folks. They talk about a clean earth and yet they litter, ruin property, want to destroy property and need a shower themselves! SEEN that too! BOTH parties!

Catherine

 

[Catherine]

PPS

PPS

Fire hoses and so forth should NOT have been used on PEACEFUL, law abiding folks who marched in civil rights issues or in any other 'issue'.

People of ALL colors and religions marched together including ones in ALL political parties.

I am NOT talking about rioting and all of the STUFF.

I am talking about lawful, peaceful people who have that 'right' which has been taken away in many cases especially in the last 7 to 20 years.

Some of the former LAW abiding and peaceful people would be called homegrown terrorists in this day and age by CERTAIN agencies and 'people'.

If SOME of you think that fire hosing is a water sport... why don't you try it sometime yourself. It is not a 'sport' and it depends on how much pressure is applied whether it is from a hydrant or tanker truck. It depends on where you would get HIT with this hose too.

I know because we tested this one time at a Volunteer FD/EMT event and did not even apply full pressure after our 'runs' and tests. I was a 'fire-ette' and my late husband was a volunteer FD, EMT, Captain, etc. for over 30 some years. He taught this subject matter too. He was a VOLUNTEER as he was for the USN and Air NG later on. It was NOT his regular NON government job nor his military job - served over 20 years total. USN destroyer, Vietnam and around the world, Air NG Fighter Wing time in his home state and overseas.

Don't tase me bro!

Catherine

 

[coloradokevin]

Catherine,

You are crazy, and that's about as far as I'm willing to go on this issue with you.

 

[Catherine]

QUOTE from Colorado Kevin:

Catherine,

You are crazy, and that's about as far as I'm willing to go on this issue with you.

~~~~~
Whatever you say... your right to say it.

High road and all.

Fire hoses should not have been used on peaceful, law abiding people.

Rioters - yes. STOP the riots and stop the criminals. Tackle them and hand cuff them.

Peaceful people who marched for civil rights and did NO wrong... they should have not been treated like bad guys in those southern towns or anywhere else for that matter.

So that makes me crazy? Ha ha.

You don't know that they do have political plants at conventions, debates and other events? You must be mighty innocent in these matters.

You don't know that people who deliberately destroy property are bad guys? You think that some of us don't remember riots from those days?

Geesh, that must make a bunch of us crazy for knowing that there were good and bad people in those days.

Catherine

 

[Catherine]

I must be crazy for thinking that there should be a level playing field for ALL of us as citizens too. I think that is why we have the SECOND AMENDMENT to back all of the other ones up. To control kings, tyrants, run away politicos - their policies and governments who went out of control, ignoring and shredding the Constitution.

Citizens and legal immigrants and peace officers = Civilians.

Military = NON Civilians.

ALL of the above = level playing field.

The people should not fear their own government.

The government (Tyrants, kings, presidents, congress, etc.) should fear their people... like getting thrown out of office for a start! Grin.

Have a lovely day.

Catherine

 

[Janitor]

Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the anarchists are organizing?

I wonder who their leader is.

--

The pepper ball guns look pretty cool, but I'd have to take the word of the LEOs around here that have used them on how affective they might (or might not) be. And while the price seems steep on the surface, I can see it. How much less complex is one of these in comparison to an actual M16? Add a margin for low volume production & new engineering costs and it doesn't seem out of control.

Now ... that's between $100 & $200K of $50M. I wonder if the rest is going to go to something like a less than lethal A-10.

 

[Catherine]

Claire Wolfe is not organizing that I know of! She is fed up with politics and games the last that I read. Grin.

I wonder who it is in both parties.

Heck, the top 3 are lesser of the evils. Still = evil. Yes, I know that many, many people are running!

After reading more of what they voted on in the past, what they stood for and what they want... we are so screwed.

Welcome to Amerika! NOT!

Catherine

 

[Janitor]

Catherine -

No offense intended ... But I'm pretty sure I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[jorb]

Why a govt grant? Why isn't the DNC footing the bill?

 

[Pilot]

Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the anarchists are organizing?

That's funny. Somewhat of an oxymorn, but as we know, it usually ends up in violent anarchy anyway so are they really "organized".


Jumbo shrimp.

 

[Catherine]

QUOTE:

Janitor:

Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the anarchists are organizing?

I wonder who their leader is.

No offense intended ... But I'm pretty sure I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

~~~~~

I answered you about the LEADER question and made a comment about Claire Wolfe not running. It was a comment, satire and a joke but if you don't KNOW who SHE is - you would not understand the comment.

She was and is a very well known former activist and political writer.

Libertarian, PRO liberty, PRO gun, Conservative in many issues - the old fashioned way in a classical sense and a Constitutional activist.

She gave up a corporate job, wrote several books, essays, wrote for magazines, newspapers, etc. She is friends with MANY people in the shooting industry and with Constitutional activists in SEVERAL political parties. She writes for the SAME magazine that Mas Ayoob writes for too. This famous man:
http://www.ayoob.com/

She has been friends with many well known political men throughout her life. She even knows the man who heads the Montana Shooting Sports Association, a group that I belong to.

This is the magazine that she writes for now:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/

Ayoob and others write for that magazine as I stated above.

I wonder who it is in both parties means this. I wonder who the anarchists are in BOTH parties. The Democrat and the Republican parties.

The other sentence means that many people are running for President.

Democrat
Republican
Libertarian
Constitution Party
Green Party
Etc.
Many candidates under all parties are running for President.

If you go to some of the 'voting websites' you will see how Many Candidates are running this year. Google is your friend along with other internet searches. Cspan has lists of these candidates too. Cspan has had them on their shows which you can get on the internet too. TV and radio links right on your computer.

So you see it is not too complicated. You asked about a leader. I answered about Claire Wolfe. I thought that most pro gun and pro liberty people KNEW who SHE was. Sorry about that!

I think that you have many people in both parties who will be at both of the top 2 conventions (R and D.) who might be fed up - that does not mean that they are "anarchists" nor does that mean that all of the FED UP ones will promote anarchy or cause a riot.

I am sure that you will have some folks who will cause problems along with the good folks who do NOT cause any problems in the D and R conventions. The D one is in Denver which is what we are discussing here. All of those toys/weapons paid by taxpayers.

I am sure that you will have 'plants' there too. Just like you have them elsewhere and even at some other political events and debates in the past. THIS was disclosed in the main stream news too.

I hope that it explains it to you. I should not 'assume' that everyone is well read in ALL kinds of literature or has known or read C. W. or other famous pro gun - pro liberty authors. Some of us have eclectic tastes - I know that I do.

The last part had to do with what Jefferson wrote:

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

Have a good day.

Catherine

 

[Catherine]

Quote:

Why a govt grant? Why isn't the DNC footing the bill?

~~~~~

Good point! WHY even need these toys/weapons?

If it is NEEDED so badly (Ha and ha!) - why NOT have any and/or ALL political parties pay for all of this STUFF?

We all know that these conventions along with any other kind of convention brings in beaucoup $$$ to any city that hosts these events.

So... why should the taxpayers pay for this in a FEDERAL way or for that matter in a STATE or CITY way?

I think it is ridiculous and another big waste of taxpayer money no matter whose convention it is!

We have all of these problems as it is... fiscal responsibility - what became of that?! Geesh.

Homeland INsecurity, with Fema under that now, along with most of those newly formed and merged agencies plus the new HIRED HELP on the FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY and CITY levels is a joke and a waste of taxpayer money. Throw more money at something and hire more people when the goobmint could handle things in a more efficient manner - people wise and fiscally conservative wise!

Catherine

 

[strat81]

I wonder what those guns do that a Tippman 98 or A5 can't do.

 

[ilbob]

Granted, some of these people were asking for it when they decided to stick around and "watch" the riot after a dispersal order was given.

so merely disobeying a clearly unconstitutional police order is a good reason to pepper spray an otherwise peaceful protester?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

hopefully those actually in charge are able to maintain a tight grip on the shock troops in the field and not have another 1968 style police riot.

personally, i almost hope the cops do over react as has just been suggested by one of their own. and I hope the payouts make for some very unhappy government entities.

at some point the power of government has to be checked. maybe this will be the tipping point. I sort of doubt it, but you never know.

 

[Fleetwood_Captain]

I wonder what those guns do that a Tippman 98 or A5 can't do.

I think they are designed to be less likely to misfeed. Having a pepper ball shatter as it is chambered wouldn't be pretty.

I know that my Vulcan has had a few paintballs pop before leaving the barrel. When this happens, the marker just spews paint out of the muzzle. In the case of a powder round, I assume that it would create a dust cloud that would drift back into the shooters face.

 

[coloradokevin]

so merely disobeying a clearly unconstitutional police order is a good reason to pepper spray an otherwise peaceful protester?
---
personally, i almost hope the cops do over react as has just been suggested by one of their own.

Sir,

court rulings have made it clear that the police are able to somewhat control the time, place, and manner of First Ammendment protected activities. There have been several US Supreme Court rulings on this subject. This doesn't mean that we can show up, decide we don't like the content of the speech and thereby disperse the crowd. However, it does allow society to place some reasonable restrictions on how free speech is exercised.

As such, not all dispersal orders are unconstitutional. You can rest assured that my team is well versed on the legal aspects relating to crowd control, and will not over-step our legal authority. I believe that the city of Denver and all of the other departments involved in this event are also equally well-versed for this event!

It is impossible to describe the various groups of protestors as one cohesive and homogenous group. There will certainly be affinity groups at the DNC who act in a manner which is legal and peaceable, and there will be other groups who attempt to incite violence. We are concerned with the later of the two... We are not concerned with the content of a speech, but rather the manner in which it is conducted!

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?item=glossary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States

Fire hoses and so forth should NOT have been used on PEACEFUL, law abiding folks who marched in civil rights issues or in any other 'issue'.

---


You don't know that they do have political plants at conventions, debates and other events? You must be mighty innocent in these matters.

Catherine,

I shouldn't bite on this, but I guess I will. Since you've done everything you could to drag this thread off topic with your banter, I suppose I'll address a couple of your issues:

1) I never advocated fire hoses against peaceful protestors. I specifically said that I'd like to use them in RIOTS.

2) The police do not have "political plants" who are looking to stir up trouble during demonstrations (as you and another poster alluded to), and won't during the DNC. You may believe that the police are looking to start a riot, but that's just a misguided and uninformed opinion.

How do I know this? I know this because I'm a career police officer, and my department will be involved with the DNC... I've also been involved in other crowd control situations during my career, and we've never once had a "political plant" in the crowd (nor has any of the other departments in the metro area, that I am aware of). I hate to burst your bubble, but the whole political world isn't engaged in one massive conspiracy against you!

3) Do you actually have anything to add about the subject of pepperball guns? Or are you just trying to drag this far enough away from topic that it gets locked for not being a gun topic?

 

[Catherine]

Quote:

Colorado Kevin:


Quote:
Originally Posted by catherine
Fire hoses and so forth should NOT have been used on PEACEFUL, law abiding folks who marched in civil rights issues or in any other 'issue'.

---


You don't know that they do have political plants at conventions, debates and other events? You must be mighty innocent in these matters.

Catherine,

I shouldn't bite on this, but I guess I will. Since you've done everything you could to drag this thread off topic with your banter, I suppose I'll address a couple of your issues:

1) I never advocated fire hoses against peaceful protestors. I specifically said that I'd like to use them in RIOTS.

2) The police do not have "political plants" who are looking to stir up trouble during demonstrations (as you and another poster alluded to), and won't during the DNC. You may believe that the police are looking to start a riot, but that's just a misguided and uninformed opinion.

How do I know this? I know this because I'm a career police officer, and my department will be involved with the DNC... I've also been involved in other crowd control situations during my career, and we've never once had a "political plant" in the crowd (nor has any of the other departments in the metro area, that I am aware of). I hate to burst your bubble, but the whole political world isn't engaged in one massive conspiracy against you!

3) Do you actually have anything to add about the subject of pepperball guns? Or are you just trying to drag this far enough away from topic that it gets locked for not being a gun topic?
~~~~~

Well, golly gee Kevin, I don't want to get this thread locked like the Michael Reagan one (Legal section.) and others here.

I will make this plain and simple so you can understand what I said and wrote even after you called me 'crazy' above.

I said that there are and have been ALL kinds of 'plants' in conventions, debates, rallies, etc. Maybe it is YOU who need to read history and catch Cspan. No, I don't think that these 'plants' are ALL over the place either. They are there @ present events and they have been there @ past events. Maybe, you need to read when they did reports on innocent and peaceful marchers including QUAKERS, nuns, priests, political activists, ordinary people @ civil rights, environmental marches, anti war marches, etc. People have found these things out from the FOIA-freedom of information acts in the past too. The FBI and other political parties even had 'plants' back in the 60's at BOTH the D and R conventions.

Sometimes these 'plants' are from the opposing side. For example: Republican @ a Democrat event - any kind of an event. Vice versa.

Sometimes they are agents aka Feds.

I did not say that they were Denver police or going to 'use' Denver police.

Sometimes you will have a wacko enviro 'activist' do something stupid and ILLEGAL @ an event. Other times you will have a 'plant' who poses as the above 'activist' at some event which would give the Peaceful and LAW ABIDING - NON DESTRUCTIVE protester doing their protest according to the "FIRST" backed up by the Second as the Second backs them all up.

On legit news - there were even events held in Canada where the Canadian Police and Canadian agents admitted that they were in some protest events to cause problems by stirring up the ones attending such events.

They do this all over the world @ some, not all, events especially if the political ISSUE is a hot one including the USA. Posers, plants, etc. 'talking' about things along with people who do unlawful acts. Stirring things up so the peaceful people get a bad name, shut up, closed down, thrown in jail because they were an innocent by stander, etc.

Now... since you think that I did NOT have anything to contribute when I said that these toys/guns were a waste of taxpayer money no matter WHERE the taxpayer money came from... maybe you need to reread this again.

Fire hoses for riot control? Riot control can be done the old fashioned way in MY not so humble opinion. WALK IN and do the job. One @ a time. Get the bad guy, cuff him/her and book them!

YOU have your opinion on RIOT control which I am quite sure DIFFERS from MY opinion on riot control. I am sure that you think that ALL kinds of options should and can be used fro a to z. You have the right to your opinion as I do mine.

So there you go. I don't want this thread locked. I gave MY opinion on these toys/weapons and the $$$ involved.

I don't think that you are 'crazy' as YOU called me. I think that you are mighty 'innocent' or not well informed when it comes to past and present history in these matters. FOIA and books have proven these things even when it came to J.E. Hoover-FBI, Johnson, Nixon, etc. ADD the new laws/acts to those things in present history. You may be in a police force - good for you - hope you continue to uphold the Constitution while you do your job and stay safe.

I have many active and retired CLOSE friends in police work. I have never been in a riot, a fight, etc. I have been at events but they did NOT get out of hand or stupid or UNlawful. I have never even had a parking ticket. Some of these events were even at my old township meetings and at other county meetings regarding proposed things for my township. Ballot issues from my county all of the way to the state capitol. NOT one of those times did I or the few others do anything UNlawful or stupid. I did not need a tinfoil hat to see the legal and political process work it's way through the SYSTEM. I got a new boat dock up at a free drop in P.C. too. My former, now deceased, Senator Gilmore did his job. The job got done and it was the squeaky wheel = me who asked WHERE my tax dollars were going in boat fees and gasoline taxes @ boat places. Many people can ask and question and protest things in a LAWFUL manner. Just because some of us are active and do these things in a peaceful/law abiding manner does NOT mean that all others do it in the same way.

The bad apples and 'plants' make the good apples look bad. There are good and bad in ALL people and in ALL professions. That is another fact which I am quite sure that most honest, law abiding and peaceful people agree as I am agree with.

Have a good day.

Catherine

 

[Catherine]

Colorado Kevin

If I could have figured out how to make this print look nice, big and dark as YOU did... I would do this. I have not studied that 'issue' yet on this board.

Catherine

 

[Zak Smith]

Now off topic.