Derranger recommendations?

[quatin]

No, you didn't. You simply said that most fights start at "conversation" range:

I don't know how you talk to people, but I'm a lot closer than 3 yards away when I have conversations with other people.

If a fight breaks out, why do you have a gun in your hand? If a lethal force encounter breaks out, it's going to be tough to cock that hammer at "conversation range" if he's all over you with a knife, fists, or gun.

If you're not going to even read through my scenarios, there's no reason to go through more hypothetical situations. I've addressed all of this before. I'm not going to get into a what-if game with you, because you keep going back to your own ideal setups. Address the situations that I've listed if you want to talk about tactics, because I haven't advocated using mouse guns in any other scenarios.

Nope. Were your derringer encounters under fire? If so, then details would be nice so we can all learn from your experience.

Then why did you even bring up this subject? It's frivolous to go about criticizing other peoples strategies with "You haven't done this in a live encounter". Especially when you haven't done so yourself.

Barring your deadly encounters where you prevailed by using your derringer, the difference is I actually know how long it takes me to draw my holstered gun with my hand on it. It might be a critical thing to know one day.

I don't dismiss any object that can be used with deadly results, a derringer being among them. But that doesn't mean all objects or guns are equally effective.

John Farnam, a world renowned firearms instructor was teaching a class. At lunch, he observed that no one was armed and mentioned it to his host. The host replied, "See that guy in the blue shirt? He's armed. He's got a North American Arms mini-revolver in his right pocket, wrapped up in a handkerchief to break up the outline."

Farnam was bemused and said, "Oh, I thought you said he was armed."

What is your point in all this. You keep saying "I don't dismiss mouse guns", but then you make up anecdotes about them being useless right after wards. What's your motive here? It's like you're trying to hide your bias against mouse guns by saying "I don't hate mouse guns, but they suck".

Perhaps I am totally missing a key element here.

Clearly, you are a champion of the derringer and/or NAA mini-revolver for defense.

I presume, therefore, that you did not simply arrive at your conclusions out of thin air and must be a serious student of the craft which you have undoubtedly pursued it to the point of excellence, resulting in your insightful posts.

I was hoping you would share some of your practice drills, experiences, etc, (ideally with video) so that we can all learn from your endeavors.

You are missing a key element. You've decided to skip through all the scenarios that I've stated on when to use a mouse gun and go straight to criticizing it on it's obvious weak points. There's no point in giving your more tactics or demonstrations, because if you're going to ignore the basis of when to use them, what point is there to talk about the tactics thereafter? You must be an experience derringer/mini-revolver user anyways, having failed at taking down that mugger from 3 yards away to give us such a detailed criticism of it.

 

[Claymore1500]

Waste of powder, loss of ballistics, terrible trigger, takes both hands to actually use, slow to reload, and is heavier than the pocket 380's which will provide better ballistics, capacity, and usability.

Just for fun, let's pick this apart some.

"Waste of powder"
Is not ANY gun with less barrel lenth than it takes to totally burn the charge, a waste of powder?

"Loss of ballistics"
From the websites of "Kel-tec" and "American derringer" P3at barrel lenth = 2.5in. cal 380acp,
American derringer, Mod6 barrel lenth= 3.0in cal.380acp,
Aside from the obvious difference in bbl. lenth, the Kel-tec uses a percentage of the energy produced to operate the slide, How exactly do you qualify the "Loss of ballistics" here?

"Terrible trigger"
Granted the trigger pull is heavy, but if done the right way, it won't hinder the shot. (I own three derringers and have no trouble with the triggers.)

"Takes both hands to actually use"
Again, I own three, I can operate them all with one hand, as could anyone who practices with them.

"Slow to reload"
Ok you got me there, which is why shot placement is king, As is the ability to move to cover.

"Is heavier than the pocket 380's, Which will provide better ballistics, capasity and useability"
They are heavier because the good ones are "Steel" not plastic,
"Better ballistics" see above,
"Capasity", OK you win here,
"Useability", Aside from possibly having to fumble with it to get a finger into the trigger guard on the small pocket 380's, Or the time it takes to recock the derringer I am not seeing much of a difference here.

A good derringer in the right hands is every bit as acurate as those small auto's and in as much as they are all nothing more than "Get off of me" guns, or "Acrossed the table" guns, and we ALL know that there are much better choices for personal defence, (And I am not talking about snubnosed revolvers, because they aren't much better). The ONLY reason that I can see for the argument in favor of pocket auto's must be that thier owners have ALL been born with the "Upper hand"

 

[Justin]

The ONLY reason that I can see for the argument in favor of pocket auto's must be that thier owners have ALL been born with the "Upper hand"

Wait...

So despite the fact that pocket autos are

• Lighter
• Faster to get into action (no need to cock a hammer)
• Faster with follow up shots
• Have a higher capacity
• Are easier to shoot owing to generally better sights, trigger, and grip
• Faster and easier to reload
  

We're supposed to believe they're inferior to a derringer for self defense because of one possible scenario that no derringer fan has actually tested by running a test version of that scenario with a derringer, semi auto, or j-frame revolver?

Dave may be a bit full of himself, but he's right. Extraordinary claims really do require extraordinary proof.

I will also, yet again (for the third time) point out that many models of derringer do not incorporate a drop safety, thereby making them much more likely to discharge if dropped. I would consider this to be a fairly serious issue, and I find it odd that none of the derringer defenders have seen fit to address it.

 

[Claymore1500]

First, I didn't claim inferiority in either case.

Second, I have two pocket auto's and wouldn't trust to carry either one with one in the chamber (alluding to the fact that not all pocket auto's are fool proof), but, all three of my derringers have hammer block safeties that will not allow them to fire when dropped.

Third, and final, In the event that I was carrying my derringer, in my pocket with my hands in my pockets, and a bad guy pulled a gun on me, all I need do is thumb the hammer while I am removing my hand, I can guarantee the bad guy will get shot, I may well be shot too, but if he is within "mugging" distance I will mess up his day.

In the end, what I am trying to say, regardless what you choose to carry, you may still be shot if luck is not with you, even if you have a beltfed pocket auto, any senario you, or any one can think of will not be a guaranteed win for you just because of your carry choice.

 

[sig220mw]

A derringer is a last option. It is something you hide until you have the opportunity to sneak it out and poke it into your attacker's ribs or head so as not to even be able to miss.

By the way David E thanks for spelling it right.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Hum, I personally don't like the idea of only two shots, and I was pursuing the 'AD' kick on a web crawl, and Derringers seem to not very drop safe, though the thread on 45/70 (I get the cast off in 2 more weeks) was funny.

 

[Justin]

Second, I have two pocket auto's and wouldn't trust to carry either one with one in the chamber (alluding to the fact that not all pocket auto's are fool proof),

Kahr, Kel-Tec, Rorbaugh and any number of other companies make autoloading pocket guns that are perfectly safe to carry with a round in the chamber. I doubt I would keep a pistol that as unsafe to have loaded.

Third, and final, In the event that I was carrying my derringer, in my pocket with my hands in my pockets, and a bad guy pulled a gun on me, all I need do is thumb the hammer while I am removing my hand, I can guarantee the bad guy will get shot,

The same could be done with, say, a Kahr, though there's no need to cock the hammer, and it's a lot easier to implement a proper double tap on the attacker.

In the end, what I am trying to say, regardless what you choose to carry, you may still be shot if luck is not with you, even if you have a beltfed pocket auto, any senario you, or any one can think of will not be a guaranteed win for you just because of your carry choice.

Guns aren't talismans, you are correct. That said, though, I see no need to deliberately choose to carry a gun that has so many deficiencies compared to a modern design. If you're going to carry a weapon for personal defense, you may as well choose the most effective one available.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I had one (a two shot .38 derringer) as a curiosity piece. For defense against attack by animals or people, a "J frame" five shot .38 Spl is not that much bigger, and easier to hit with.

At distance the points of impact of the upper and lower barrels of a derringer are usually different. At here to snakebite range with CCI shotshells it did not make a difference.

 

[quatin]

The same could be done with, say, a Kahr, though there's no need to cock the hammer, and it's a lot easier to implement a proper double tap on the attacker.

That's true. Pocket autos are great if you keep your hands in your pocket. The advantage with the mini-revolvers/derringers is you can pull the gun out and wrap it in your hand after you cock the hammer. It's a trade off like I said before and having a bigger gun is a perfectly legitimate reason to choose the pocket auto.

As for the drop safety, there are derringers that are drop safe (I think Davis derringers are all drop safe) and all the NAA mini-revolvers are drop safe.

Guns aren't talismans, you are correct. That said, though, I see no need to deliberately choose to carry a gun that has so many deficiencies compared to a modern design. If you're going to carry a weapon for personal defense, you may as well choose the most effective one available.

A lot of people keep mentioning this. I don't think anyone here that advocated for derringer/mini-revolver use has even hinted about it being your only gun. We're just talking about situations where a mouse gun would be advantageous and there are several common situations like I mentioned before. It's not like carrying a derringer is going to stop you from carrying another gun, we're not talking about full size pistols here. You probably have twice as much stuff in your pockets than the area a derringer takes up. Since someone mentioned it being "lazy" to not carry anything bigger, it would be equally "lazy" to not carry a mouse gun seeing how little space it would take up.

 

[Claymore1500]

OK, I give up, There is obviously no chance that anyone could possibly defend themselves with a derringer.

I will not debate the fact any longer.

 

[glockdriver]

Wildbillz

To me the Bond Derringer is the best on the market to date ,comes in any caliber your willing to shoot , quality leather available , not cheap but highest quality

Now was that so hard , thats all he asked

 

[Rustinthewheel]

Hi All
I am thinking of getting a derranger. Anyone have one and or want to make a recomdation? 22cal, 32cal or ???

Thanks
WB

All of this is irrelevant, OP asked what some good choices for a Derringer are. I think it would be far more interesting to hear what interesting or proven designs are available, than to bicker about other types of firearms.

The auto vs. revolver/ .380 vs 9mm vs. .45 arguments are all too common, how often does anyone actually discuss these pieces of history, regardless of their perceived effectiveness? Your LCP, Kel-Tec, or Kahr all come from the basic premise established by the Derringer...how to pack some heat when you don't want to look like you are packing heat?

*spoke too soon, thanks glockdriver*

 

[fireside44]

Your LCP, Kel-Tec, or Kahr all come from the basic premise established by the Derringer...how to pack some heat when you don't want to look like you are packing heat?

In some of the heated exchanges about their usefulness they missed a couple of things:

1) Some people refuse to use or carry automatics for a variety of reasons.

2) Derringers have a reputation for reliability that pocket autos can only dream of.

 

[David E]

David E: Nope. Were your derringer encounters under fire? If so, then details would be nice so we can all learn from your experience.

Quatin: Then why did you even bring up this subject? It's frivolous to go about criticizing other peoples strategies with "You haven't done this in a live encounter". Especially when you haven't done so yourself.

Nice try, but since I answered your question, you should answer mine. (or do you choose not to, since your own response would apply doubly to you?)

Here are your scenarios you say I keep ignoring:

If you've seen or been in a fight, it starts at conversation range and begins with talk. You have your hands in your pocket for a few seconds, draw and palm the gun, completely innocuous.

Why are you conversing with someone that you think you might have to shoot in the next couple of seconds? Why are you not trying to leave the area? Why is this soon-to-be-shot-because-he's-going-to-kill-you person only at arm's length away? Do you think smugly to yourself, "Hey, I got a 2-shot derringer in my pocket, so the best tactical thing for me to do is to surreptitiously get it from my pocket into my hand! Yeah, that's the ticket!" Fer cryin' out loud!

Another example is if you hear someone following you to your car in a garage, it could be someone parked next to you, it could be a mugger.

Many, many other options exist and are superior to getting a 2-shot derringer into my hand.

A panhandler approaches you and ask for money, but doesn't look the part.

Ditto the last answer.

A barking dog get lose from its owner and comes charging at you, it could be friendly it could be aggressive.

How big is the dog? What is the owner doing? Do I know the owner? Why can't I simply kick the dog in teeth? If it's a German Shepherd, snarling and running at me while the owner says, "Kill! Bruno, KILL!" that .22 magnum 2-shot derringer (or even 5-shot NAA as you suggested in Post #27) won't be much comfort.

It is not difficult for most people to apply some common sense to various scenarios. Many folks have posted several of the shortcomings of derringers. I hope your encounter happens just as you propose it will and that you'll prevail.

And yes, while I don't dismiss them (since they can be deadly) they SUCK as a primary defensive weapon.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A barking dog get lose from its owner and comes charging at you, it could be friendly it could be aggressive.

The last time that happened to me, it was a ferrel pit bull -- the owner had dumped several in the woods. I never even considered a derringer -- and I would definitely not want to have been armed with one on that occasion.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

small pocket autos are the rage now and I think the way to go. Some of the big cal derringers like bond and american are pretty heavy as I have had a few of them but neat pistols. and yes I do remember shooting one with 410 and wow. I do own a davis in 32 auto but have never carried it but could I guess. Any gun is better than no gun and it could make a ok pistol at times. I am thinking in the summer back in my days in ca. heading to the beach or just wearing shorts it would work. I believe and do carry several differrent pistols depending on what I am wearing.

Now I have owned a few old remington derringers but those were like pre 1900's and all the cobra, davis, american and bond had hammer block safety's and had never had one come off in my pocket but have never dropped one either. So someone here said most deringers do not have a safety could you point out which of those are so we do not buy them. I do not carry my 1911 with the hammer down on a round either.

thank you in advance.

 

[PRM]

American Derringer Model 1, 45LC/410

I've had an American Derringer since the late 80s. Mine is a Model 1 in 45LC/410.

The 45LC is a hand full, I had some cartridges loaded with black powder which tamed the recoil. Not a tack driver, but acceptable at close range if its all you had.

The .410, .000 Buck patterns well and give acceptable results out to around 7 yards. The .410 is a lot more comfortable to shoot than the .45LC.

I usually carry mine loaded with .410 field loads. Makes a great snake charmer at around 3-5 yards when I am in the woods.

I don't use mine as a CCW simply because I have other options. Its a little slow to get into play and two shots don't leave a lot of room for error. It fills a unique place in my small collection and is a lot of fun to shoot. The short barrels belching flame from black powder always sparks interest on a firing line.

 

[quatin]

Nice try, but since I answered your question, you should answer mine. (or do you choose not to, since your own response would apply doubly to you?)

Yes, I haven't shot anyone yet in this life time.

Why are you conversing with someone that you think you might have to shoot in the next couple of seconds? Why are you not trying to leave the area? Why is this soon-to-be-shot-because-he's-going-to-kill-you person only at arm's length away? Do you think smugly to yourself, "Hey, I got a 2-shot derringer in my pocket, so the best tactical thing for me to do is to surreptitiously get it from my pocket into my hand! Yeah, that's the ticket!" Fer cryin' out loud!

Have you never seen a fight before? I mean, how do all these people who have others trying to hurt them allow them to get so close?

Some people get are aggressive and an argument can turn into a fight quick. Even if you're trying to calm him down and walk away, you don't turn around or you'll get hit in the back of the head. If a guy comes across a parking lot and starts off on how you cut him off and how he's going to mess you up, you're going to keep your hands up in the air and back away apologizing until you get far enough to turn around. Making an obvious move towards a gun will get you arrested for brandishing if he backs off. (Yeah, even if you don't pull it out. I can quote you from my "Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership" handbook.) Putting a hand in your pocket and pulling it back out without an obvious weapon would seem less threatening. If a fight starts, it will be up close. Have you ever tried to draw a gun while someone is trying to knock you out? I've actually practiced to simply get away from a scuffle like this. It's hard enough to get a punch off, much less draw something. If you have something in your hand already, it's much easier to deploy.

Another example is if you hear someone following you to your car in a garage, it could be someone parked next to you, it could be a mugger.
Many, many other options exist and are superior to getting a 2-shot derringer into my hand.

Yeah? Like what? There better be a vastly superior weapon capable of the same tactics. I'm not talking about the perfectly optimized weapon for every scenario. I'm talking about viable tools. I'd personally move up to a mini-revolver or pocket auto in this precise situation, but I wouldn't scoff at the derringer.

How big is the dog? What is the owner doing? Do I know the owner? Why can't I simply kick the dog in teeth? If it's a German Shepherd, snarling and running at me while the owner says, "Kill! Bruno, KILL!" that .22 magnum 2-shot derringer (or even 5-shot NAA as you suggested in Post #27) won't be much comfort.

So a .22 is better than sharp stick, but your foot is better than the .22? Some dogs are full on aggressive, but don't bite. I've had neighborhood dogs get away from their owners and come straight at me, barking and snarling, but that's all they did. Drawing a gun or getting into the "I'm drawing a gun pose" can get you into trouble unless the dog actually bites you. At which point, a .22 in my hand is better than nothing at all or you can risk getting arrested for brandishing by drawing a bigger gun every time or at the very least get in bad terms with your neighbors. Again if you want to go about optimizing the perfect weapon, I'd pick a collapsible baton.

It is not difficult for most people to apply some common sense to various scenarios. Many folks have posted several of the shortcomings of derringers. I hope your encounter happens just as you propose it will and that you'll prevail.

And yes, while I don't dismiss them (since they can be deadly) they SUCK as a primary defensive weapon.

No one is talking about primary/secondary carry.

 

[Doc3402]

Derringer recommendations? Don't get one. You could carry a 4" Smith and Wesson revolver in roughly the same space as one of the Bond Arms derringer clones. That would give you 4 more shots in an easier to shoot package.

If you're talking about a real derringer in a pocket size, get a good fixed blade knife instead. You can do a lot more damage with it and it won't make your ears ring.

If all you want is a pocket pistol I would go with a Ruger LCP.

 

[rogertc1]

The Davis style derringers were cheap. (dealer was under $40.00) Get the .32 if you must get one. Reason is that 22LR will absorb oil and become worthless. Or get the .22 and change bullets every month. IMHO I would not carry a Great Western derringer.

 

[rugerman]

Once opon a time I to had the urge to get a derringer so I bought a cobray 38, trigger pull was about 25 pounds, the only way to hit a barn was to be inside it, after 5 shots it became a single shot. Emailed the company to fix it since it was still under warranty (lifetime) and they said that if I would pay shipping both ways they would fix it free. Hell shipping both ways cost more than the pistol sold for new. I still have the pistol it makes a great self defense ROCK. I no longer have a hankering for a derringer.

 

[Nushif]

A friend of mine had a Cobra once. She sold it, too, simply because it was so badly manufactured that we couldn't load the second round.
It was a hoot to shoot for that first round though. If I ever saw a Derringer that's usable I'd snatch one up in a heartbeat. Especially something like a .22 that you can have cheap fun with.

 

[David E]

David E: Were your derringer encounters under fire?

Quatin: I haven't shot anyone yet in this life time.

Quatin: Then why did you even bring up this subject? It's frivolous to go about criticizing other peoples strategies with "You haven't done this in a live encounter". Especially when you haven't done so yourself.

C'mon, if you're going to tee it up like that for me, you know I gotta hit it!

Every situation you cite could be simply handled with better tactics and a better gun.

Have fun with your derringer.

 

[quatin]

C'mon, if you're going to tee it up like that for me, you know I gotta hit it!

Every situation you cite could be simply handled with better tactics and a better gun.

Have fun with your derringer.

Tee what up? You started it with:

I suspect that you've never actually tried to do that under time pressure. Sure, it may be easy to do on a relaxing day at the range, but let's add a little pressure and find out how long it really takes.

So unless you have some real world experience to offer with drawing under pressure, what was the point of bringing that up? Come back to me when you have constructive criticism on the topic.

 

[David E]

(sigh)

When I was a cop I made several draws "under pressure," with one in particular standing out. But I never drew from an IWB and never had to shoot anyone. I was ready, willing and able to shoot every one of them had it been necessary. Lucky for them and me, it wasn't.

99% of the posts here give all kinds of valid reasons why the derringer is a poor choice for defense. The remaining 1% is you citing silly scenarios that could be easily handled with simple tactics and a smarter gun choice.

I encourage you to take a gun class that covers basic tactics. If you do, you'll quickly see why the derringer is ill-suited to the task.