Derranger recommendations?

[Vern Humphrey]

I'll make it simple.

The title of the thread is "Derranger recommendations?"

The vast majority of us recommend, "no."

 

[quatin]

(sigh)

When I was a cop I made several draws "under pressure," with one in particular standing out. But I never drew from an IWB and never had to shoot anyone. I was ready, willing and able to shoot every one of them had it been necessary. Lucky for them and me, it wasn't.

99% of the posts here give all kinds of valid reasons why the derringer is a poor choice for defense. The remaining 1% is you citing silly scenarios that could be easily handled with simple tactics and a smarter gun choice.

I encourage you to take a gun class that covers basic tactics. If you do, you'll quickly see why the derringer is ill-suited to the task.

You've still not practiced what you preached, drawing from an IWB under pressure. I still don't understand why you brought this up. Is there a point to this?

My scenarios are equally silly to your scenarios. If it's silly to prepare for a fist fight turn bad, it's silly to prepare for a mugging from 3 yards away. I've detailed my tactics. Stating "there's a better way to do that" doesn't make it so. If you have a vastly superior method let's hear it. All I've seen so far are exclusively long distance scenarios. If you had wanted to make your own post about it that's fine, but you quoted me in your replies, so I would assume you're responding to my scenarios, not your own.

 

[David E]

You've still not practiced what you preached, drawing from an IWB under pressure. I still don't understand why you brought this up. Is there a point to this?

I brought it up to make the point that you cannot shoot AND HIT with your palmed derringer as fast as you think you can. Predict your time from reaction to hit........then use a shot timer and then find out for sure. It's silly to say your way is faster/superior when you have no proof. If you can't do it under the "pressure" of the timer, what makes you think you can do it when your life is on the line? I've already told you that my time frame starting with hand on holstered gun is about 1/3 of a second. I'll round that up to 4/10ths. Can you beat it? If not, then my time for drawing a holstered 1911 govt model starting with hand on edge of coat is .73......can you beat that?

If it's silly to prepare for a fist fight turn bad,

I don't get into fistfights and would avoid them at all costs when armed. So, yeah, its silly to "prepare for a fistfight gone bad." If you DO get into fistfights all the time, armed or not, then you have other serious issues that need to be addressed.

It's silly to prepare for a mugging from 3 yards away.

So a mugger approaching you on the street or in a parking lot is silly?

I've detailed my tactics. Stating "there's a better way to do that" doesn't make it so. If you have a vastly superior method let's hear it.

Ok, heres a vastly superior method: DONT GET INTO FISTFIGHTS!!!!

All I've seen so far are exclusively long distance scenarios.

You're the first guy who considers 9 feet to be "long range!"

I'm glad you like your derringer so much. What are your derringer-specific practice drills? Total rounds per session? Or is it merely a talisman?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
It's silly to prepare for a mugging from 3 yards away.

So a mugger approaching you on the street or in a parking lot is silly?

This is why we practice staying on Condition Yellow -- so we notice things like people approaching us, search ahead when walking to spot places where we might be ambushed and so on.

 

[Kleanbore]

Let's see....two shots; one has to cock the pistol before every shot; safety issues....

I cannot imagine training using the Tueller drill (drawing and shooting a rushing attacker who starts his attack from a distance of just over twenty feet) with a derringer.

With an attack by multiple attackers being only about 25% less likely than an attack by one person, one could be seriously under equipped.

Why on earth would one ever select a derringer for personal defense?

It would be interesting to see some FoF training with the defender using a derringer with simunitions.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

First of all, you'd have to find a guy who:

A. Thinks a derringer makes a good defensive weapon, and

B. Is willing to get shot repeatedly with simmunitions.

Not many of those.

 

[sansone]

I had a .38 two-shot for a year. It was cheap and I needed something real small. Stepped up to a .380 eventually to triple the # of shots

 

[David E]

This is why we practice staying on Condition Yellow -- so we notice things like people approaching us, search ahead when walking to spot places where we might be ambushed and so on.

Exactly! It's better to see people who are potential threats and engage them at ranges beyond "conversation distance."

 

[David E]

First of all, you'd have to find a guy who:

A. Thinks a derringer makes a good defensive weapon, and

B. Is willing to get shot repeatedly with simmunitions.

Not many of those.

Well, there might be ONE guy.........

 

[quatin]

I brought it up to make the point that you cannot shoot AND HIT with your palmed derringer as fast as you think you can. Predict your time from reaction to hit........then use a shot timer and then find out for sure. It's silly to say your way is faster/superior when you have no proof. If you can't do it under the "pressure" of the timer, what makes you think you can do it when your life is on the line? I've already told you that my time frame starting with hand on holstered gun is about 1/3 of a second. I'll round that up to 4/10ths. Can you beat it? If not, then my time for drawing a holstered 1911 govt model starting with hand on edge of coat is .73......can you beat that?

I didn't say it was superior. I didn't even mention time. Did I even ask you how fast you can draw from a holster? Seriously, if you even read through my scenario, I was talking about situations when you can't draw a gun in an obvious manner.

I don't get into fistfights and would avoid them at all costs when armed. So, yeah, its silly to "prepare for a fistfight gone bad." If you DO get into fistfights all the time, armed or not, then you have other serious issues that need to be addressed.

And I don't get into being mugged and I avoid muggers at all costs when armed too. Are we going to play which unlikely scenario is more unlikely to happen?

So a mugger approaching you on the street or in a parking lot is silly?

As silly as someone approaching you on the street or in a parking lot wanting to kick your butt. What if the mugger wants to kick your butt first before mugging you?

I've detailed my tactics. Stating "there's a better way to do that" doesn't make it so. If you have a vastly superior method let's hear it.
Ok, heres a vastly superior method: DONT GET INTO FISTFIGHTS!!!!

That's inane. That's like saying, don't get mugged and you won't need to carry a gun. I don't go out looking for people to start punching me as much as I don't want people to mug me.

You're the first guy who considers 9 feet to be "long range!"

I'm glad you like your derringer so much. What are your derringer-specific practice drills? Total rounds per session? Or is it merely a talisman?

I do consider them long range, for a mouse gun. I already went over this. You don't have to call it long range if you don't want to. Are you going to address the scenario or not? Or do you think it's just too silly for someone to ever get close enough to start hitting you?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

What if the mugger wants to kick your butt first before mugging you?

That's why you:

1. Stay in Condition Yellow.
2. Have a gun.
3. Have enough gun to deal with any likely situation.

 

[David E]

I didn't say it was superior. I didn't even mention time. Did I even ask you how fast you can draw from a holster? Seriously, if you even read through my scenario, I was talking about situations when you can't draw a gun in an obvious manner.

You brought up the time factor when you asserted that your method of palming a derringer is faster to fire on target than drawing a holstered gun.

I disagree and posted the times you need to beat in order for you to prove your point.

If you want a superior method to your "palming a derringer" technique, then use a .38 or .380 in a pocket holster with your hand on it. That method works better for every one of your scenarios.

 

[quatin]

You brought up the time factor when you asserted that your method of palming a derringer is faster to fire on target than drawing a holstered gun.

I disagree and posted the times you need to beat in order for you to prove your point.

If you want a superior method to your "palming a derringer" technique, then use a .38 or .380 in a pocket holster with your hand on it. That method works better for every one of your scenarios.

You're going to have to show me when I asserted that statement. I've been careful about wording my statements, trying to figure out what you were getting at with the whole drawing speed thing. I certainly didn't want to imply the drawing speed of a derringer is any faster, because that's not the point of the tactic.

I've addressed pocket autos two times already. You lose the use of one arm and you cause alarm with one hand in your pocket all the time. It's a trade off, one that's perfectly acceptable to make for having a bigger gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

You can discretely draw and hide it in your hand if you feel trouble is coming and you want to draw a gun, but keep still keep it hidden from view.

You may think it is "discrete" and that the gun is hidden from view, but you have still drawn your gun. You cannot draw simply because you "feel trouble is coming".

You may avoid an assault charge if the situation is resolved peaceably and the gun in your hand is never detected, but should the gun be fired, the fact that it had been drawn before the existence of imminent danger would likely not work in your favor in a defense of justification. If the gun had not been drawn prematurely, there would have been no advantage to the "palming" technique.

Perhaps much more importantly, if the other person senses that you have a gun in your hand and are trying to hide it, it is he who now has reason to believe that he is in imminent danger, and he who may be justified in using deadly force against you.

I would not try to employ that strategy, much less select a defensive weapon on that basis.

You may encounter a similar problem if you overtly reach your hand into your pocket or under your jacket "too soon" during an encounter involving raised tension, but if the shortness of the distance makes drawing very, very quickly a critical issue, there's nothing wrong with keeping your hands in your pockets, even if you have a gun in one of them. If you do choose to have a gun in your pocket, one with a reasonable capacity that does not have a hammer that must be cocked before every shot is a much better choice than a derringer.

 

[David E]

Size. If you've seen or been in a fight, it starts at conversation range and begins with talk.

How often has that happened to you?

You have your hands in your pocket for a few seconds, draw and palm the gun, completely innocuous. If a fight breaks out, you already have the gun out

This implies that the derringer palmed in your hand is faster firing a shot on target than drawing a gun from holster or pocket. Prove it.

I'm still anxiously awaiting your derringer shooting drills.....you DO have some, don't you? Or is all this just speculative bluster on your part?

 

[Justin]

You brought up the time factor when you asserted that your method of palming a derringer is faster to fire on target than drawing a holstered gun.

I disagree and posted the times you need to beat in order for you to prove your point.

If palming a derringer, cocking it, bringing it on target and firing an accurate shot or two allows you to be faster on target than drawing from a holster and firing a double tap, it should be no problem whatsoever to run a test with a shot timer.

Frankly, I don't know why the guy who gets to start with his gun already in his hand is so defensive about responding to a challenge from a guy who has to draw from a holster*. If this is the clear advantage, it should be a very easy demonstration to pull off. All you need is a shot timer, a target, a cheapie video camera and a YouTube account and we're all but one range trip away from having basic data to work from.



*This, of course, assumes that under the scenario you wouldn't be able to discreetly palm a semi-auto pistol like a Kahr or a revolver like a snub-nosed j-frame.

 

[quatin]

How often has that happened to you?

As an adult, I haven't been in a fight yet. I've had some tense conversations, but they ended peacefully. Although, I've seen it happen to others. Are you questioning that fights tend start at conversation range or that it begins with talk?

This implies that the derringer palmed in your hand is faster firing a shot on target than drawing a gun from holster or pocket. Prove it.

In the context of my previous posts, that's not what I implied. I've repeatedly mentioned that the situations for mouse guns are situations where you can't or don't want to be obviously drawing a gun. Having a gun in your hand has other advantages in my scenarios that I've already mentioned. Now that I know what you're talking about, I'll let you know that my palm grip to fire grip is roughly .4 s. I didn't want this to get into a pissing match over fractions of a second, because it's not very important in my scenarios.

I'm still anxiously awaiting your derringer shooting drills.....you DO have some, don't you? Or is all this just speculative bluster on your part?

I do, but I am trying my hardest to keep this discussion on topic. You haven't really addressed my original post, which you quoted in a response. First you called it a fantasy, then silly and finally you did bring up pocket autos, which I responded to. I don't want to give you further encouragement to derail onto another topic. If you would like to go back to that train of thought, I'll keep discussing it with you.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

just get one of those things I see in the movies where the derringer just jumps out of your sleve and you shoot. LOL

 

[David E]

I've had some tense conversations, but they ended peacefully.

Did you draw and palm your derringer? I normally wouldn't ask, but you said you "practice for fist fights gone bad."

Although, I've seen it happen to others.

Seen what? Where a conversation ended up with someone getting killed?

Are you questioning that fights tend start at conversation range or that it begins with talk?

I'm questioning the plausibility and wisdom of getting into a conversation with someone then, while talking to them, legimately believe that you might have to KILL this guy before he kills you in the next few seconds. Then, instead of doing any number of smarter things, you stay within "conversation distance" while thinking you can surreptitiously do a pocket draw and possibly cock the derringer without this hostile-almost-ready-to-kill-you person noticing from 2-3 feet away.

I'll let you know that my palm grip to fire grip is roughly .4 s.

Is this "palm grip" different from "palming the derringer so they can't see it" that you described? If so, what's different? If not, and you have the gun completely enclosed in your closed fist, then I'd have to see that .4 to believe it.

I didn't want this to get into a pissing match over fractions of a second, because it's not very important in my scenarios.

Your key scenario starts from 2-3 feet away. Speed is critical and fractions of a second DO matter.......a LOT.

I do, (have derringer range drills) but I am trying my hardest to keep this discussion on topic.

This certainly would be part of the topic, since you think the derringer is such a capable defense arm.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Quatin: I've repeatedly mentioned that the situations for mouse guns are situations where you can't or don't want to be obviously drawing a gun.

Most of us would opt for pocket carry of a more effective weapon--perhaps a revolver that can be fired from the pocket of a jacket.

If you "can't" draw your gun with sufficient speed because the threat is already too close, pocket carry with your hands in your pockets is generally recommended. If you "can't" or "don't obviously want to be drawing" a gun because you are not lawfully justified in drawing (because you "feel trouble is coming", in your words), don't do it.

Having a gun in your hand has other advantages in my scenarios that I've already mentioned.

If you can lawfully have a derringer drawn and in your hand, you can lawfully have a Glock drawn and in your hand.

This link provides a pretty good discussion about the justifiable use of deadly force. Read it from the beginning:

http://www.useofforce.us/

In general, one cannot lawfully draw a weapon until and unless deadly force is justified. There are specific exceptions to that in a couple of jurisdictions, but none of them involves "feeling" that "trouble is coming".

If one were to draw and "palm" a small weapon when he is not justified, and if others notice (and as David E says, that would seem likely), the risks range from serious assault charges to giving the other person a justification to use deadly force in self defense. That's if the gun is not fired.

If a gun that has been drawn without legal justification is fired in an ambiguous incident, the shooter's defense of justification could be compromised.

 

[quatin]

Did you draw and palm your derringer? I normally wouldn't ask, but you said you "practice for fist fights gone bad."



Seen what? Where a conversation ended up with someone getting killed?



I'm questioning the plausibility and wisdom of getting into a conversation with someone then, while talking to them, legimately believe that you might have to KILL this guy before he kills you in the next few seconds. Then, instead of doing any number of smarter things, you stay within "conversation distance" while thinking you can surreptitiously do a pocket draw and possibly cock the derringer without this hostile-almost-ready-to-kill-you person noticing from 2-3 feet away.



Is this "palm grip" different from "palming the derringer so they can't see it" that you described? If so, what's different? If not, and you have the gun completely enclosed in your closed fist, then I'd have to see that .4 to believe it.



Your key scenario starts from 2-3 feet away. Speed is critical and fractions of a second DO matter.......a LOT.



This certainly would be part of the topic, since you think the derringer is such a capable defense arm.

This is why I didn't want to post it, you're trying to make this a pissing match over fractions of a second on a subject that has little impact on the present topic.

I've stated before that you can't always get away. If I can always runaway from a fight and don't need a close up weapon, then you can always run away from your 3 yard mugger and don't need your gun either. I'm not planning for situations when I can run away, I'm planning for situations where I can't. There's no point in further discussion if you simply don't believe a confrontation can happen up close.

I'm going to describe a scene I saw that I loosely based my scenario off of. A guy, may have been kicked out of a nearby club, approaches a couple and said "you parked in my spot." The other guy says "I don't know what you're talking about". A back and forth develops as the couple tries to walk away. The bar guy follows and continues yelling the accusation. Bar guy waits till he turns around and hits him in the back of the head, knocking him down. He continues punching the victim on the ground for a bit then runs away. No one was seriously hurt, but fist fights can get deadly. All of this happened in minutes.

 

[David E]

This is why I didn't want to post it, you're trying to make this a pissing match over fractions of a second on a subject that has little impact on the present topic.

But it has impact on the viability of your "tactic"

I'm going to describe a scene I saw that I loosely based my scenario off of. A guy, may have been kicked out of a nearby club, approaches a couple and said "you parked in my spot." The other guy says "I don't know what you're talking about". A back and forth develops as the couple tries to walk away. The bar guy follows and continues yelling the accusation. Bar guy waits till he turns around and hits him in the back of the head, knocking him down. He continues punching the victim on the ground for a bit then runs away. No one was seriously hurt, but fist fights can get deadly. All of this happened in minutes.

So when should he have "palmed" his derringer? (let's presume he had one). When should he have shot him?

He shouldn't have turned his back on the guy, wearing a gun or not.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So when should he have "palmed" his derringer? (let's presume he had one). When should he have shot him?

That's the key question -- up until the guy hit him, there was no justifiable reason to draw, let alone fire.

He shouldn't have turned his back on the guy, wearing a gun or not.

Right. So it didn't matter what kind of gun he had. The outcome was determined not by his weaponry, but by his bad tactics.

 

[quatin]

But it has impact on the viability of your "tactic"



So when should he have "palmed" his derringer? (let's presume he had one). When should he have shot him?

He shouldn't have turned his back on the guy, wearing a gun or not.

Again, technically yes, practically no. The difference of a fraction of second makes no viable impact especially in relative to the other advantages such as having use of both arms.

He should've palmed it, when bar guy started following him and fired when he was struck or at least when he was being beaten on the ground.

I'm glad you agree that you can't simply turn and run from all situations.

 

[Justin]

I'm questioning the plausibility and wisdom of getting into a conversation with someone then, while talking to them, legimately believe that you might have to KILL this guy before he kills you in the next few seconds. Then, instead of doing any number of smarter things, you stay within "conversation distance" while thinking you can surreptitiously do a pocket draw and possibly cock the derringer without this hostile-almost-ready-to-kill-you person noticing from 2-3 feet away.

I have to agree somewhat. At one point in time, I found myself drawn into a conversation with a guy who just didn't seem right.

He followed me out of the store I was in, and tried to continue the conversation. As he did this, I rapidly did what I could to put something between us, in this case, my car.

I was able to end the conversation in such a way that he chose to move on, but had he not, he would have had to come around or over a parked car to get to me.

In this instance, while I didn't know what he was up to, I knew he was up to something, and did what I could to put the odds in my favor if he decided to become agressive.


Regardless, specifically choosing to carry a gun because it's optimized for such a scenario (drawing a gun discreetly and palming it) strikes me as trying to especially prepare for an eventuality to the exclusion of all others, something that may very well prove to be detrimental.

On top of that, Kel-Tec, Kahr, and Rohrbaugh, among others, all make semi-auto guns that could easily be described as derringer-sized or smaller, so even in the previously described "discreet drawing" situation it wouldn't matter.

That said, I'm of the opinion that if you're actually to the point of drawing a weapon, you may as well show it, because you must clearly be at the point where taking a human life is your only option.