Devil's advocate... Why buy a 1911

[firestar]

Like most folks I have more problems than money, the concept of spending $700 to buy a problem just doesn't jive with me. I kinda expect guns to work right from the box, including being reliable with most hollowpoints, and having acceptable accuracy. When even a manufacturers biggest fans are telling me one of the companies best features is how they treat yu when you send a new gun back to them to get it to work right I get

100% TRUTH!

I have never understood how people can be so patient and forgiving of bad guns. I'm saying all 1911s are bad (or that any are bad), I just don't see the point of buying something that is expensive and still having problems with it. If you pay $500-800 for a new 1911 (or any gun) and it has problems, it doesn't sound like a deal to me.

 

[GitSome45]

You can kick my dog...

You can spit on me...

You can even sleep with my wife,

BUT DON'T MESS WITH MY 1911 COLT .45 !

JMHO,

Howard

P. S. (From Hank Williams Jr. ... "A Country Boy Can Survive" ) :

-Talking about his New York friend who was stabbed with a switchblade knife and killed for $43 dollars... what that thug has a comin...

" I`d love to spit some Beechnut in that dudes eyes, and SHOOT `EM with my old .45, cause a Country Boy can survive..."

If I ever was to have to take matters into my own hands...( Somehow the Law failed, or refused to bring about any JUSTICE) that is how I would see myself 'reckonin' with somebody...

 

[1911Tuner]

Outdated

I have to disagree on the outdated issue. If it's outdated,
why is it here? Not only that...why is it still being used
by several agencies? Obsolete doesn't apply. Witness the
many bolt-action rifles that are still basically copies of the
Mauser...some are pretty much carbon copies. The M-77
Ruger is but one example. The answer is simple...because
it works.

An ordnance-spec 1911 will function under conditions of
neglect that you wouldn't believe. I've encountered
some that have been left loaded in condition one for
a half-century and longer..and they functioned perfectly
with the ammo and the magazine that was with them.
They will function when held under water. They will
function with parts missing...and they can be completely
disassembled in less than 3 minutes using just their
own parts as tools...and other ordnance-spec partswill drop in and work 99% of the time...no fitting needed.

If you look closely at a Glock or Sig, you will see John
Browning's influence...sometimes closely copied. The
basic design is alive and well everywhere you look.

Beyond that...most functional issues that occur with a 1911
are simple, and usually just as simple to fix. When I was
working as a smith, I corrected hundreds of functional
"basket cases" in 30 minutes or less...and most were less.
I've found that at least 75% of the feeding problems were magazine related, or due to having a recoil spring that was too heavy for the gun. The others were usually extractor related,
and only a few needed any adjustment on the throat or
ramp. The rare cases that needed more were due to a
mechanical timing problem, or the result of tinkering by
someone who didn't understand how it works.

Obsolete? Nahhhhh.

Cheer-O!
Tuner

 

[Sean Smith]

Best trigger this side of a SIG P210. If you don't know why that is important, you don't know how to shoot yet.

 

[New_comer]

I figure that there are enough 1911 fans out there that I will get some response, but I would also like to be convinced that I shouldn't just go out and buy a USP or an HK for a better, more reliable weapon.

I don't think that even the entire '1911 nation' could convince anyone not to chose another type of quality firearm.

That's what choices are for...


Not me for my USP,


Not Ala Dan for his SIG


Nor Tropical Z for his Hi-point

 

[Ky Larry]

As I said in another thread about the reliability of 1911's:
The very fact that we are still talking about the 1911 makes the argument a moot point. After almost a century, the 1911 is still around. It has stood the test of time. I'll stick with what has been proven to work in every location ,climate, and condition on God's earth. When you carry a 1911, you know it will get the job done, no matter what. That's reason enough for me to own and carry one.

 

[1911Tuner]

Larry's Logic

And that there statement pretty much sums it up.

Cheers! and Semper Fi...
T

 

[xring]

Everyone needs at least one Magnum PI!
I love the mystique of the 1911. Not to mention, I shoot it more accurately than any other weapon I own. My lightly modified 1991 is extremely reliable, and I would trust my life to it without hesitation. Randy

 

[Boats]

[paraphrase]Well I dunno, when I buy into internet hysteria, when I buy other pistols with well documented failures but don't give those negatives the credence that I give the 1911 failure reports, when I don't understand the firearm enough to tear it down, diagnose, and fix a rare problem without calling the whaaambulance for a UPS sticker, I will always buy something other than a 1911 and keep my fingers crossed because my firearm repair ability is akin to uttering voodoo phrases at the pistol.[/paraphrase]

HINT: Most people do not use Springfield's warranty service because they don't have to. They'd fail as a business if more than a small percentage of people had serious trouble. Nevertheless I hear that they will take good care of any problems. It's the unfounded faith that people have in almost every other pistol, despite ample evidence to the contrary that people do have baffling (to them) problems even at HkPro, SIGForum, and GlockTalk, that I find so amusing. All my 1911s have worked "out of the box." Why not extrapolate my experience as the norm and the failures as the exception? Because too many people are emotionally vested in knocking the old warhorse that's why.

 

[harrydog]

QUOTE:
"Being a somewhat newbie to handguns (8 years) I ask myself that same question, and in answer, I have never purchased a M1911.

I don't like .45s, and I don't care for the ergonomics of what I consider, an obsolete, well, that is not the correct term - how about - outdated weapon.


I got spoiled out of the box by Glocks and Kahrs. They work for me, and so, unless I just want a curio, I have trouble justifying purchasing a handgun that is not modern. I consider PPKs, Lugers, and BHPs, etc. in this catagory as well."










Spoiled by Glocks? The possibility of that escapes me. While Glocks are good, reliable pistols, I can't see how anyone can think they are anything particularly special. I find the 1911 to be almost ideal. I like the .45 round. I love the accuracy. The ergonomics are superior in my opinion. They can last almost forever. There is nothing like a steel gun. Polymer just doesn't quite do it for me. I've been shooting pistols for 30 years and the funny thing is, I used to feel the same way about the 1911. Eventually I realized what a fantastic design it is. Your analogy to old cars isn't a very good one, since modern cars out-perform old cars by a wide margin. The 1911 usually out-performs the newer pistol designs. I wouldn't own any if that weren't the case.

 

[ojibweindian]

The trigger.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Why not?

 

[Dobe]

Why not extrapolate my experience as the norm and the failures as the exception? Because too many people are emotionally vested in knocking the old warhorse that's why.

Boats, well said. On this forum alone, one sees thread after thread...."1911 vs. Glock". "1911 vs. 'X'", etc. And lately, one can read of the so-called design problems of the 1911. Yet the 1911 keeps on going. If there is a better testimony to this gun's performance, I cannot think of it.

This final truth will remain. If you (collectively speaking) do not like the 1911, find what you do like. Your not liking the 1911 will not lessen its ability as a wonderful design and handgun.

I've decided on my fourth 1911. It too will be a Kimber Series I, assuming it is still at my favorite gunstore.

 

[Scott Evans]

The 1911 dose what it always has.

No advance in pistol design by any other has immerged in the 100 years since its conception that render it less effective then it has ever been. Nothing about the 1911 can yet be labeled as obsolete.

If there were such a thing as ZEN in combat hand gunnery the 1911 would certainly be a conduit.

With years of testing, tweaking and exploration into every aspect of the design so as to enhance and maximizes its mechanical performance and with multiple generations of combat experience there exist with the 1911 a body of knowledge unequaled as to its specific, effective implementation like no other. Out of the box you get what the others will never provide: A century long resume of unbroken service.

… and by the way my Springfield 1911 set me back $600 and has yet to malfunction once. 10,000 + rounds and counting.

 

[NickEllis]

Thanks.... and personal needs...

Wow, just got on this morning (I'm in Brazil on vacation)... and looks like you guys have some serious feelings on the issue. Great to know that the old horse is still top of the list in more than one person's opinion.

Double Naught Spy said..

Gaiudo, short of actually knowing what your needs are, finances, background, etc., it would be awfully hard for us to tell you why you should or should not purchase a given gun, make, or model. Are you looking for a best gun, best value for the money, most accurate, lightest, best reputation out of the box, least recoil, best safety features, or what?


__________________

Well, I was thinking more of the lines of best value, most practical carry gun that has been proven for reliability.

Gaiudo

 

[GitSome45]

I own a COLT 1991A1 (old rollstamp), and the only thing I did to it, (besides put some nice grips on it) was tune the extractor...

NOT because I had to, but because I COULD...(I like to be able to catch my brass in a bucket due to the "accurate" ejection from a finely tuned extractor..)

Oh, I did polish the the external part of the barrel chamber (the part that shows through the slide when in battery) until the mil-spec blueing was removed leaving a beautifully bright two-tone look... (like the Series 70 / 80 models...)

I feel "WELL ARMED" when I pack this "shootin' iron"...

JMHO,

Howard

 

[krept]

Well, I got to rent some firearms at the range this weekend.

One was a full size Kimber. One was a Glock 30. One was a Desert Eagle .50AE and I brought along my USP .45.

All of the pistols I rented seemed like they had been used recently but were relatively clean. The Kimber was the only one that jammed... not even the DE did.

I shot as accurately with my USP as I did the 1911 (I grew up w/1911), but I didn't shoot it nearly as fast due to the yardlong reset on the USP's trigger.

I shot as fast with the Glock as I did with the 1911, but was not as accurate. Chalk it up to compact vs. fullsize .45, maybe, but the 1911 was more accurate to me.

After a major mistake in buying a POS first pistol (p13), I really wanted to like the 1911 again. It felt pretty good but now the reliability came back into play. I can also see why people bevel the magwell because it was a little tricky to insert magazines relative to the USP or Glock.

I think I liked the Glock the best and should have tried a G21 to really compare it to the others. Of course, just my opinion. The USP is the only pistol I have for now and works just fine. Having not owned a Glock for a while, I think accuracy was just a matter of becoming reacquainted with the trigger. I shot pretty well with my former G27, considering.

cheers

 

[B Coyote]

krept,
What kind of magazine did that Kimber malfunction on? What type of ammunition? When was it last cleaned?

Just because the Kimber was the only one to malfunction....doesn't mean it's a poor design. Trust me, if it coughed, there's a reason for it.

bc

 

[OF]

I just bought my first 1911 last week, so I've recently spent alot of time thinking about the 'why' of it all.

Bottom line for me: I have come to believe that if you are looking for an out-of-the-box weapon that requires little to no maintenance to achieve an acceptable performance standard, get a Glock or an HK USP. If you are looking for a weapon that, in the right hands and with the proper attention, is capable of achieving a level of performance unobtainable with other platforms, the 1911 is that gun.

This is what I am expecting from my new 1911 - we'll see how it goes.

- Gabe

 

[1911Tuner]

Reasons

Coyote nailed it down, and most of the time, the reason
is something simple. Many of the early Kimbers were
seriously ovrsprung, which leads to the magazine
being outrun by the slide. Failures to feed on the
last round is where it usually shows up.

Magazine spring tension and follower design is another
place that will choke the last round.

First round burps...look first to the magazine feed lips...
follower angle,and at the barrel/feed ramp gap, and/or
throat...possibly also the smoothness of the breechface
and the extractor tension.

All these are relatively quick fixes.

Kudos BC!
Tuner

 

[B Coyote]

Thanks, Tuner....I am learning.

bc

Oh, by the way...if you're ever in NW Indiana, I want to buy you lunch. We can talk 1911's.

 

[1911Tuner]

Learning

...and you have learned well, young grasshopper. If YOU"RE
ever in the northern piedmont, NC, lunch is on ME.

Cheers!
Tuner da Tweaker

 

[krept]

Coyote, it looked like the stock magazine that comes with a Kimber. The lips were undamaged, I can't really comment on spring tension but it didn't feel unreasonable slack. The choke happened in the middle, probably round #4. Ammo was PMC 230gr ball.

The failure, I'm not sure how to describe it. It was an empty that lodged in the ejection port. Kind of like a stovepipe, but was horizontal. Maybe an improperly tuned extractor? I did not note any significant amount of crud under the extractor claw on breechface, etc.

And although I have a USP, had a Glock and may get another, I clean my weapons thoroughly after every range session. The main part I'm worried about on the 1911 is the TUNING. If it's a delicate task to tune one, isn't it easy to go out of tune? Why is so much tuning necessary? What happened if a Glock or USP were equally tuned (i.e. grayguns trigger jobs that shorten the reset). Are tuned 1911s that smoke other guns in paperpunching good for carry when they might get a little lint in them from IWB carry... or maybe might get banged up against a car door? Or maybe get a little wet if your car breaks down in a monsoon? I thought that Glocks do pretty darn good against tuned 1911s, maybe not against the ones that have bbl weights, red dots, 2.5lb triggers, but ones that are carried?

Please don't take this as bashing 1911s, I really do love them and they were the first pistol I have ever held and fired. 1911s will always be around, as will single action big bore revolvers.

 

[themic]

wonder... if 1991 owners predominately drive american trucks or RWD cars... an F150 or a Firebird or whatever.

1911 owner; and I recently owned a chevy truck (had to sell it unfortunately to have something smaller/lighter for city livin)

Yeah a Classic Chevelle is old technology, and may not be as fancy or modern or nearly as FWD as a toyota celica, but I still like it better.

 

[1911Tuner]

Krept's Krunch

Krept, that was likely the extractor. Kimber uses MIM
extractors that lose tension or break easily. Steel is
better, and spring steel is proper.

Tuning one delicate? Nahhhh...Buildin' one from the
ground up is 10% knowledge and 90% common sense,
assuming that you aren't shooting for a full custom and
a match trigger job. Tuning one is usually even easier than that,
if you know what to look for. i.e. "What caused it to do that?"

Overspringing is the single most oft-noticed problem that's
come to my attention. More often than not, you can get one
to sing with a lighter recoil spring, or a new one if the
spring is heavily used. Magazines are a real close second,
and actually should be the first suspect half the time. I've
seen real pukers come around with a simple recoil spring change and a good magazine.

Regardless of what some will tell you, 1911's are not rocket
science, and most issues aren't beyond the average kitchen
tabletop tinkerer. Just don't go dinkin' around with the trigger
group. That's the delicate part, and you can get in over your head
pretty quick there.

B Coyote is a quick study, and he can probably help you straighten one out double-quick unless there's a mechanical timing problem.
Cheers!
Tuner