Did I "brandish" Minnesota

[Shootcraps]

You were brandishing. Where was the threat for your life?

 

[jeepmor]

Yes, dead is worse

It could have gotten him dead. Dead is worse.

Agreed, but he did this with the intent of warding off the panhandlers, not protecting his life. Concealed means concealed. Not having a round in the pipe already is not the problem, putting it in a ready state as described, clearly is, CCW permit or not.

Why do so many pro-gun folks delude themselves into believing their actions are justified when they are clearly ILLEGAL! What a bunch of machismo bologna. Playing this way means you are willing to give those rights away by simply being dumb. The CCW permit would have been yanked for this action in my town, forever forbidding you to carry ever again, maybe even owning a gun....think about it.

jeepmor

 

[Declaration Day]

I've never had to pull a gun on anyone. However, I have had "bums" (possibly thugs) approach me before. I'll order them to stop while taking a few steps back, to increase the distance between us. On only one occasion did I have to put my hand where my pistol was, and the guy decided it was best to leave me alone.

I have several pistols- Springfield, Glock, Sig, etc. But my Kel-Tec P-11 is the only one I feel comfortable carrying with a round chambered. That DAO pull is a long and hard one. The P3at is identical in function, so I don't understand why you feel uncomfortable carrying it chambered.

 

[Shootcraps]

Agreed, but he did this with the intent of warding off the panhandlers, not protecting his life. Concealed means concealed. Not having a round in the pipe already is not the problem, putting it in a ready state as described, clearly is, CCW permit or not.

Why do so many pro-gun folks delude themselves into believing their actions are justified when they are clearly ILLEGAL! What a bunch of machismo bologna. Playing this way means you are willing to give those rights away by simply being dumb. The CCW permit would have been yanked for this action in my town, forever forbidding you to carry ever again, maybe even owning a gun....think about it.

jeepmor

+1. I would be willing to bet, that using deadly force to "ward off panhandlers" is illegal just about everywhere. You're incredibly lucky that the woman with the baby didn't call the police.

 

[gunsmith]

well answer guy

sn't what you were doing called 'picking a fight'?

after 3 years of asking the same "homeless" idiots to please leave you alone (they love to pester you when your talking to girls for some reason)
I started telling them to get a job and leave me alone, I started treating them like they treated me.
try living in North Beach San Francisco for a year and see if you don't get plain fed up with "homeless" thugs harrassing you everytime you walk out the door.

If telling them to get a job & telling them I got money from working & you can't have any is "picking a fight" then I guess I'm guilty.
On the other hand they could just leave me alone couldn't they?

 

[Shootcraps]

Isn't what you were doing called 'picking a fight'?

We have the right to not be hassled repeatedly by beggars.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Too excessive of a demonstration. IMHO you should never let anyone know that you carry under any circumstances unless there is imminent danger to life and limb to you and whatever else your state says. Don't be a test case for the courts. Just by the fact of you pulling out the handgun and chambering a round could make any witness fear for their life, you really don't want to open that can of worms

 

[answerguy]

after 3 years of asking the same "homeless" idiots to please leave you alone (they love to pester you when your talking to girls for some reason)
I started telling them to get a job and leave me alone, I started treating them like they treated me.
try living in North Beach San Francisco for a year and see if you don't get plain fed up with "homeless" thugs harrassing you everytime you walk out the door.

If telling them to get a job & telling them I got money from working & you can't have any is "picking a fight" then I guess I'm guilty.
On the other hand they could just leave me alone couldn't they?

I suppose that would get old after awhile. Do the same pan handlers keep asking everyday, don't they take a hint after awhile?

 

[Janitor]

Why do so many pro-gun folks delude themselves into believing their actions are justified when they are clearly ILLEGAL!

Certainly, what he did feels like it should be illegal, and it doesn't at all seem like a very good solution, esp given that there was really nothing that needed to be solved. But I haven't been able to find a law against brandishing in MN.

Given that it's clearly illegal, do you know which specific law would cover this?

 

[answerguy]

The simplest dictionary definition of 'brandish' is 'waving'. Oddly, I could not find a legal definition of brandish on line. But from memeory it is something like 'waving in a threatening manner'.

 

[Byron Quick]

It depends upon your state. The word 'brandish' cannot be found in the Georgia Criminal Code with the search function. Nor is the word 'display' to be found in any of the firearm relevant statutes. There is a statue which makes pointing a gun at another (without legal justification) illegal. As far as I know and as far as self defense classes here (taught by LEO's) have ever covered, what he did would be legal in Georgia. It would still be a very poor choice in tactics, in my opinion.

Once, I've drawn a handgun, I stay in condition red until I have completely broken contact with the reason for drawing that weapon in the first place. Just in case, the miscreant's retreat halts beside a car's trunk where he obtains a weapon and his retreat becomes an assault.

Personally, whether it was legal or illegal is irrelevant to a certain degree. Ignore, for a moment, the possibility of losing your permit or even the states where such action constitutes a felony. What is relevant is that it could have escalated an encounter instead of de-escalating it. When I draw a weapon; I will be prepared to fire that weapon. Nor will I holster that weapon until the situation has changed to the point that there is no threat.

1)He drew a weapon without a decision to shoot.
2) He holstered his weapon in view of the potential threat.

Both are unsound tactics.

Given that it's clearly illegal, do you know which specific law would cover this?

Janitor, many of our members labor under the belief that the laws of their state of residence are the same in every state. It worries me at times for there are states which severely punish what may be legal in the member's home state. Many seem to have no clue about this.

 

[Janitor]

It worries me at times for there are states which severely punish what may be legal in the member's home state.

I share the same worries. So many of us go for that out of state permit that will make us legal in several states, but then neglect to study laws in those other states before traveling there. Consequences could be severe for those not paying attention.

 

[Geno]

Seems like brandishing to me

There was no "clear and present danger". They showed no weapon. Why draw a gun? Seems like brandishing to me.

For my part, and from what I was taught, you NEVER draw unless it is to fire, to stop the person from causing you or others in your immediate area serious physical harm or death. Stealing, demanding your money or automobile do not justify a shooting.

I am truly NOT convinced that brandishing will RELIABLY avert conflict. To the contrary, many times it might; many times it may be the very element that when added makes the difference of merely an ugly memory V. the death of someone. I guess all in all, the law seems to be pretty common sense.

Maybe if you carried one in the chamber, you wouldn't have felt so sure of yourself drawing it, knowing the full magnitude of what lies within.

I NEVER carry with the chamber empty. That's just dangerous!!! If your one hand is injured, how do you intend to rack the slide?

Doc2005

 

[12smile]

1)He drew a weapon without a decision to shoot.
2) He holstered his weapon in view of the potential threat.

Both are unsound tactics.

Good points...Just the kind of feedback I am looking for.

 

[Byron Quick]

12smile,

You need to state why you are adverse to carrying your Keltec P3AT with a round in the chamber.

If you had carried a round in the chamber, the draw would have been unnecessary. There would be no question of brandishing. The potential threat would not have been alerted to your armed status. You would have been able to command them to come no closer. Tell them you were armed if that became necessary. And retreat while observing their reactions.

All of this precipitated from not carrying a round in the chamber. With a gun that is designed from the very start to do so. Why?

 

[P0832177]

Carrying a weapon that is not ready to go seems to defeat the purpose of carrying a handgun for self defense! Then we will not go with the impressions of brandishing or not. The whole idea is be able to trump potential foes! What would have happened had the two hombres trumped you vieled threat? I question seriously why anyone would carry a gun, exit a vehicle then chamber a round! That is flat out plain dumb! I will not even touch on the idea that that you will sink to the lowest level of your training! So under stress you might just point and click on an empty chamber!

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

It was not brandishing. Brandishing requires the handling of a weapon in such a way as to cause a reasonable person to fear immanent sever bodily injury or death. A mere momentary flashing of a downward pointing weapon for a non-threatening operation of the action, without even making eye contact with anyone around him, and then quickly replacing it, is not brandishing. Even if you were to establish that the action was done with the intention of letting someone know that he was armed that would not be brandishing either, since there is no immanent threat involved in simply letting someone know you are armed. At worst is it an implied conditional warning, i.e., "if you attack me I will shoot you." It would still lack immanence.

 

[CraigJS]

See post #12, not illegal, but unwise.. What IF when chambering the round, SOMEHOW the gun goes off ?? Both illegal and unwise.. You may have been takeing pictures of your new cell-mate/husband BUBBA!

 

[Shootcraps]

It was not brandishing. Brandishing requires the handling of a weapon in such as way as to cause a reasonable person to fear immanent sever bodily injury or death. A mere momentary flashing of a weapon, without even making eye contact, and then replacing it, is not brandishing. Even if you were to establish that the action was done with the intention of letting someone know that he was armed that would not be brandishing either, since there is no immanent threat involved in simply letting someone know you are armed. At worst is it an implied conditional warning, i.e., "if you attack me I will shoot you." It would still lack immanence.

Wrong. It depends on the state. In Virginia, brandishing is waving it about in a threatening manner. I think a smart prosecuter could get, "taking it out, loading it, and concealing it" to qualify as brandishing.

The crux of the situation is this:

"He essentially used deadly force against SOME UNARMED, NON-HOSTILE PANHANDLERS."

Not only is that irresponsible, it's pretty friggin' stupid. He's sooo lucky that nobody called the cops.

 

[answerguy]

It was not brandishing. Brandishing requires the handling of a weapon in such as way as to cause a reasonable person to fear immanent sever bodily injury or death. A mere momentary flashing of a weapon, without even making eye contact, and then replacing it, is not brandishing. Even if you were to establish that the action was done with the intention of letting someone know that he was armed that would not be brandishing either, since there is no immanent threat involved in simply letting someone know you are armed. At worst is it an implied conditional warning, i.e., "if you attack me I will shoot you." It would still lack immanence.

This reasonable person does think that was brandishing but probably justified.
What isn't brandishing is reaching up to a shelf in a store and having your weapon exposed as your sweater rides up.

 

[Shootcraps]

This reasonable person does think that was brandishing but probably justified.

How do you justify drawing a gun on an unarmed, panhandler? What was the threat?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

How do you justify drawing a gun on an unarmed, panhandler? What was the threat?

He didn't draw the gun on anyone. It was pointed downwards. Where do you get that he drew a gun on someone? I think that people need to sometimes trust their instincts. Failure to do so can occasionally cost your life. This guy decided to trust his instinct that these guys didn't mean him well. He took a very moderate action which may well have saved his life. Not saying I recommend exposing your weapon routinely in public, but for all you know this man would be dead today if he had not done what he did. I will not second guess him.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

This reasonable person does think that was brandishing but probably justified.
What isn't brandishing is reaching up to a shelf in a store and having your weapon exposed as your sweater rides up.

If a mere momentary flashing of a downward pointing weapon for a non-threatening operation of the action, without even making eye contact with anyone around him, and then quickly replacing it causes you to fear immanent severe bodily injury or death, I fear that you are not a reasonable man. The reasonable man standard is not established based on what actions might cause Don Knots' Increadible Mr. Chicken apoplexy. That would be an unfair standard.

 

[Shootcraps]

He didn't draw the gun on anyone. It was pointed downwards. Where do you get that he drew a gun on someone?

Because this is what he did:

When they're about 20 feet away I carefuly extract a Kel-Tek .380 from my right rear pocket in full view of the approaching gentlemen and with the muzzle at all times pointed strictly at a 90 degree angle towards the ground, rack the slide and chamber a round. I return the pistol to my pocket all the while maintaining eye contact w/ the Hombres.

The prosecuting attorney is going to have a cake walk turning that into "he drew the gun on them".

 

[Shootcraps]

If a mere momentary flashing of a downward pointing weapon for a non-threatening operation of the action, without even making eye contact with anyone around him, and then quickly replacing it causes you to fear immanent severe bodily injury or death,

He had eye contact with the poor, unarmed panhandlers the whole time. Go re-read his post.