Did I Handle This Right??

[Sawdust]

Anyone who is stupid enough to install and use a car alarm that sounds like a gunshot when armed is just plain stupid.

*Incredibly* stupid.

You are an accident waiting to happen, and I will have *no* sympathy for you when a decent citizen plants one COM in your waste of skin because you think this childishness is funny.

Wise-up dumba$$e$.

Sawdust

 

[Stingray]

Now I agree that the alarm is irresponsible, but I have yet to hear a compelling arguement that legally justifies his response.

How is it legally justified to draw and point your gun at an unarmed innocent person because you heard a gunshot?

 

[Graystar]

How is it legally justified to draw and point your gun at an unarmed innocent person because you heard a gunshot?

1. He heard gunshots in close proximity, and

2. the shots came from the direction of the car, which was in close proximity.

Any reasonable person would conclude that:
1. his life was in immediate danger, and
2. the shots are being fired from where those men were standing.

I don't know about you, but that's good enough reason for me to draw.

 

[sturmruger]

That gun sounds is amazingly real sounding. I am going to go home and listen to it on my 5 piece PC surround sound system. I will probably scare the crap out of my wife. The only missing is the concussion of the muzzle blast.

 

[Majic]

I don't know about you, but that's good enough reason for me to draw.

To draw your firearm yes, but to actually take aim at the first person you see may be a problem if they display no threat to you.
This is a two edged sword that could hurt if swung in either direction.

 

[BluesBear]

sturmruger, that was a factory Remington .44 Special fired from a 3" 29. It was recorded with an Electro-Voice RE-20 microphone directly into a Sony handheld DAT at an outdoor range back in 1995.

I did 100 shots with 100 different mic positions and that was the best of the bunch.

A buddy of mine had a really nice 16 track studio but he just never would let me shoot there.

 

[Treylis]

Of couse not! You calmly show each other your concealed weapons badge!

Haha, so there actually IS a legit use for those other than fooling people into thinking you're a cop! ;-P

 

[Hardtarget]

I think a call to local police to COMPLAIN about that "alarm " is in order. Ordenances have passed here,(Nashville), to controll dark window tint. I bet the police will not be happy when they get the same rush you got. If they've not already heard it, they might like a heads up on it. You may not see/hear many of these if the police push for removal. They don't want to shoot anyone, either.
Mark.

 

[HadEmAll]

I'll ALWAYS have thought I saw something shiny in the hand(s) of anybody I point a gun at. It's stupid to think of giving the (perceived) bad guy(s) the first shot because you're worried about legal repercussions. Your first thought should be of survival, not what a jury or DA would think. If you don't survive because you were too slow to react because you were processing the penal code in your mind before reacting, then this whole concealed carry thing is (or was) a waste of time.

 

[Majic]

I'll ALWAYS have thought I saw something shiny in the hand(s) of anybody I point a gun at.

....and you may not keep your CCW very long or worst your ability to own your guns. Shiny doesn't have to mean gun and you don't have the right to just point a firearm at someone.

 

[larry_minn]

My take and (worth every penny you are paying me for it)
You saw some punks who dressed/acted like gang bangers. It would be rude to (disrespect) them by not treating them as the threat they want to be. You hear a shot from where they are so a REASONABLE person would ASSUME the shot came from t hem. You reacted to protect yourself/child. WHen you did NOT see a actual threat you did NOT shoot. IMO you are to be commended for thinking of others lives over your own/child. BTDT but in my case the gun the shooter had was loaded with blanks. (and he didn't point it at me) I feel this shows you have received enough training that you can afford to hesitate and make sure of facts. A untrained/unsure person would likely open fire and ask questions later.

 

[GEM]

One might quibble that you should have drawn to a low ready rather than pointing the gun at the person, just to avoid the risk of an ND due to stress. There are plenty of stress related bad shoots out there.

I would say call the cops immediately as they might have taken your license and reported you at their leisure with their side of the store.

As I said, I don't have a problem with the draw. Muzzle up bothers me a tad. I was justly criticized for it at the NTI for covering innocents and loved ones with my muzzle.

Otherwise, good for you Captain.

On a jury, if you had shot one and if it was proven that they had triggered the alarm, I would vote to acquit. In fact, a good psychologist who knows guns would be a fine expert witness. The defense had one in the Diallo case but didn't need to call her.

 

[The_Antibubba]

LOCATION

Cap,

Since this was in Vegas, not San Diego, the odds are the cops will be much more appreciative of your side as a CCW holder. If you haven't reported it by now, and they haven't stopped by to see you, I'd let it go this time.

 

[gryphon]

Did I Handle This Right??

I think that you already knew the answer to that question, so why even post it here?

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Thanks for Your Insights

Thanks Everybody for your insights.

We don't live in a perfect world. It seems that even CCW permit holders who have had varous levels of firearms and readiness training can respectfully disagree on the 'right' way to handle a perceived lethal threat in which the incident is over in a few seconds.

At the time, it sure seemed real to me. For all I knew in that split second or so, my little boy and I were about to be the victims of a Washington DC type sniper or some gangbanger crossfire.

There just wasn't a whole lot of time in those couple of seconds to slowly, leisurely and deliberately consider all the possible options. I reacted with a combination of instinct and purposeful training to take those actions possible under the circumstance to protect my little boy, assume the lowest target profile in the very short time available, get a sight picture, target acquisition and before firing, assess the situation.

In my own opinion, it seems pretty good that once it was clear that the two quick succesion sounds of gunfire that I heard were "only a car alarm", my muzzle went to the low ready posture and the brief verbal exchange with one of the men seemed to 'connect' the reality of the situation in a manner that I certainly hope will avoid that kind of incident happening again.

I believe these kinds of car alarms pose a real danger of public panic to those within hearing of them. It's against the law to shout "FIRE !!" in a movie theatre when there isn't one. It should be against the law to make people fearful of getting shot by maliciously and deliberately using a car alarm that sounds like gunfire.

Let's all resolve to keep aware of our surroundings, keep our wits about ourselves and be ready. Especially since it seems that we are in for more terrorist incidents between now and Election time.

Very Respectfully,

 

[Plinkerton]

While some may think you may have "jumped the gun" (pun intended ), I personally don't think you acted out of line.

It's pretty stupid to have a car alarm like that, and I would have hoped I had acted the same way.

 

[KaceCoyote]

The whole point of getting a CCW is to protect your life and the lives of your loved ones.

He was with his son, there was a noise that caused him to fear for his and the safety of his son. He drew his weapon and readied himself to defend his family.

Personally, I'd rather jump the gun and get called a paranoid than drop the ball and take one in the stomach. Thats just me though...

Your only paranoid until your right.

 

[cracked butt]

I think Captain Mike did alright.

If the car alarm had a tone that sounded like a woman screaming for help because she was being raped, I think a similar action would have been justified as well.


There are reasons why we have laws that bar yelling 'fire' in a movie theatre.

 

[CEShooter]

cracked butt beat me too it. (That just sounds wrong on so many levels. Anyway.)
There is more to threat identification than simply visual cues. Sounds and smells should also be used. The only cue he had was auditory and Captain Mike reacted like I hope I would in a similar situation. The only possible critique I could add would be the direction the muzzle was pointed when he visually tried to figure out what was going on but either way I would consider it well done.
As for the whole profiling charges, if that's what he did I would have to say, "Holy cow, he must be human." Profiling is what has kept man alive all these years. We profile bright red cirles on a stove top, we profile snakes that make rattling noises when they shake their tails, and the list goes on and on. If I were in that situation and I noticed guys that look like thugs, gangbangers, goth, whatever, they are going to register in my mind as not conforming to societal norms which means they get the most attention. Though you may be offended in the end, it's kept me alive and I'll stick with it. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then to me it's a duck and not some goose trying to stand out and get attention.

 

[ExtremeDooty]

It's been so long that I've fired a gun without a pair of muffs on, even a low quality recording of gunshots would likely make me jump out of my skin.

Anyone that doesn't profile these days, is either naive or foolish. Like someone else said, I don't think I'm going to have much trouble with anybody's Great-Grandma. Trouble is more likely to come from the young and stupid, like the kid with the gun shot car alarm.

 

[had]

Anyone that doesn't profile these days, is either naive or foolish.

if you see a guy that looks like trouble but are to worried about hurting his feelings that you just look down or pretend that he is not there you are living in a fantasy world. and i'm not talking to any one just saying how i feel. most people are not trouble, but if you dress like a punk, thug, gangster... i'm going to think you are one sorry.

you obviously did the right thing. even if i saw no one and heard the gunshots i would be pulling my weapon. if you see someone that looks like trouble you have no right to draw on them. but once you have heard gunshots ALL BETS ARE OFF. and if the gunshots turn out to be a car alarm well ... lucky for those guys that one of them wasn't carrying something that looked like a gun.

stupid idea for a car alarm, should be illegal.

had

 

[gryphon]

stupid idea for a car alarm, should be illegal.

No, it shouldn't be illegal. However if something happens that would have caused a firefight and that was the catalyst, then it should be taken into account.