differences between Pump vs Break Action vs CO2 vs whatever

[ChaoSS]

JSH1, decibel readings are meaningless without context. The sound level heard by the shooter is different than the sound level for the guy standing a few feet to the side of the gun when it goes off, and that's different than for the guy standing downrange. (yeah, yeah, I know, just theoretical)

Also, it's going to matter whether you are outside or inside, what kind of stuff surrounds you, etc, etc.

Further, the sound meter apps on your phone may help you compare sounds when measured by the same phone, but going phone to phone readings are going to change.

There are videos of the gun on youtube if you look around, you can get some sort of sense of what it sounds like by comparing it to how loud other sounds are, like the people talking.

It's not backyard friendly, though, that's for sure.

 

[JSH1]

JSH1, decibel readings are meaningless without context. The sound level heard by the shooter is different than the sound level for the guy standing a few feet to the side of the gun when it goes off, and that's different than for the guy standing downrange. (yeah, yeah, I know, just theoretical)....

I realize that dB apps on phones aren't particularly accurate and the reading would vary based on how the test is done. However, they could be used for ballpark comparison between guns. Someone with a couple a guns could test them the same way.

One of the bigger retailers like Pyramid Air could test new guns and list the dB reading in their specs instead of a subjective 1-5 scale. Real industrial meters sell for less than $200.

 

[WardenWolf]

Well, I've only experienced one break-action pellet gun, and that was my father's Walther LP53 pistol (the same gun shown on a Bond poster). That thing takes a considerable amount of effort to break open. I personally prefer pump guns. Sure, they take more time to get ready, but modern pumps are relatively easy to operate and are very powerful. Though if you want an unpleasant gun to pump, look no further than the venerable Sheridan Blue Streak. Getting that thing up to full power almost requires you be a bodybuilder.

 

[Oldnamvet]

The sheridan does require more oomph to pump up. My steroid 392 has me grunting to get to the full power on it, 14 pumps. So I typically stop around 6 which is about equivalent to the stock Sheridan at 8 pumps. For an easy pumping rifle, try the Daisy 880. Cheap as well.

 

[WNTFW]

I prefer pump guns, both single and multi pump guns. Not into break barrels. I have shot my Sheridan which is a 3 shot minimum gun for 2 6k round cycles. So that was 18k pumps in sitting and 18k pumps in prone. Where there is a will there is a way for those willing to work at it. I do feel one of the benefits of air rifle shooting is having to partially break position and reestablish it for the next shot. I think that really helps establish your sense of when you have a good position or not.

For me it is pump for now. PCP will be in the future. Like many the cost of gun and filling options are a little bit of a deterrent all at once.

 

[ChaoSS]

I'm not going to say it's not a deterrent, but if you are willing to pump a mpp, you shouldn't have much trouble with a hand pump for a pcp. Brings the price down by a good bit over an electric pump and a tank.

 

[WNTFW]

The big deterrent is money ATM and deciding what I want to get. I'd pump it. I might end up whining about, but I'd give it a go.

I need to decide if I want a 3p rifle or something to shoot the Field Target competitions.

I want to learn about it before jumping in for once. I have other things going on and the 853 is filling the bill for home target use. I am thinking Air Force edge or better for a 3P or Benjamin Marauder for field target would be nice starting points.

 

[Crawfish1]

PCP is the best option for volume shooters that are looking for easy accuracy. I use a 4500 PSI bulk storage tank and get over 7,500-10,000 shots without refilling it. No pumping, no breaking, just refilling the rifle every 40- 50 shots. It takes 15 seconds to refill the rifle with air. Quick connect foster fittings make it easy.

The bulk 4500 PSI air tank gets filled once a year from the SCUBA store. It costs around $25.00 to have it refilled. PCP is the most cost effective choice for a air rifle if you are going to shoot a lot. I would be going in for joint replacement surgery if I had to pump a multi or even break open a barrel 9,000 times a year.

How many times can you shoot a average springer until the spring has broken? 2,500-5,000 times maybe? In the long run PCP is the best value option per shot. If you don't shoot much anything is going to be expensive per shot. Thats the beauty of PCP you will shoot so much more if you set yourself up correctly the capital cost of the gun comes way down per shot. PCP's also offer the best silenced guns in the industry.

OK,
I am ready to get beat up by the anti PCP crowd now.

 

[WardenWolf]

The sheridan does require more oomph to pump up. My steroid 392 has me grunting to get to the full power on it, 14 pumps. So I typically stop around 6 which is about equivalent to the stock Sheridan at 8 pumps. For an easy pumping rifle, try the Daisy 880. Cheap as well.

I had an 880 years ago, but it didn't hold up. Started leaking after I hadn't used it for a few years (stored inside in a climate-controlled house). Still, was extremely accurate, and I liked it. My father still has his Blue Streak, and as far as I'm concerned he can keep it. It's got awful ergonomics, an awful front sight, and is way too difficult to pump. At least it has the good rocker safety instead of the earlier ones.

Nowadays, I live in an apartment, don't have a backyard, and don't have to worry about pest control, so I don't have much use for an air rifle at this point in my life. I never shot anything living with either pellet rifle, but the 880 was originally bought to deal with some pigeons that had taken roost in our roof; they left before I could deal with them. I suppose I could have used one of them for any of the various rattlesnakes we got (we lived right on the edge of the desert in Arizona), but they were never handy when the snakes showed up so they got the mattock treatment instead.

 

[Chevota]

Crawfish: I'm not going to beat you up over it at all, I'm glad it's working for you and is what you want. I'm a springer guy but pcp is awesome, and better, it's just not ideal for me or most. So I gotta ask; up to 10k shots? Wth kinda gun and tank? I'm guessing a std 88CF@4500? That's sweet, mine is expired but all I can think of is you're shooting at a very low power level? Nothing wrong with that, I'm just curious about the ftlbs energy level needed to squeeze that may shots... For me an elect pump would be way better than a tank, but still I have a hard time justifying it to myself.
Btw, I bought my first springer in 1983, and the spring is as good as new to this day and I have no doubt it will be for life. How many shots I can't say, but I probably put 5000 thru it the first few months. Granted it's top German quality, but even my cheapo springers are holding up nicely. Nitro springs not so much... My only real pcp experience was with a .22 Marauder @ ~33ftlbs, and was only doable because a friend had a pump. I remember it was ~200psi drop per fill, and ~60 shots? So with a 3k tank it was basically just one good fill. Now "if" he could've gone to 4500 I suppose it's safe to assume 8 fills? So 500 shots? Once I moved away from said friend I got rid of the M-rod... Yes I regret it, but unwilling to drop the coin or hand pump it. So clue me in on your shot count secret, maybe it'll be worth getting a tank. I've also considered making a small pump that will just charge the gun, but I'd need serious persuasion to start that project... Ironically I have all the dry nitrogen I could ever use at work, at up to 10kpsi, but unfortunately filling my stuff is not an option

 

[fpgt72]

Some things to think about before you listen to some people.....if you expect your dive shop to fill your 4500lb tank when their business is putting 2500lb of air in tanks I suggest you talk to them and see if they can do it first.

Second plan on spending the cost of the rifle (entry level PCP anyway) on the 4500lb tank then another few hundred on fittings to get air into your rifle. Entry into PCP is pretty expensive....then as long as you are there it is not too (TOO) bad.

 

[Bigdog57]

I would likely go PCP if I shot more. But it just isn't in the cards just now. Maybe later when I start getting my SSI check coming. And certain family obligations end giving me more time to shoot.
Still, I do look hungrily at the Benji Discovery.......

 

[WNTFW]

Crawfish: I'm not going to beat you up over it at all, I'm glad it's working for you and is what you want. I'm a springer guy but pcp is awesome, and better, it's just not ideal for me or most. So I gotta ask; up to 10k shots? Wth kinda gun and tank? I'm guessing a std 88CF@4500? That's sweet, mine is expired but all I can think of is you're shooting at a very low power level? Nothing wrong with that, I'm just curious about the ftlbs energy level needed to squeeze that may shots... For me an elect pump would be way better than a tank, but still I have a hard time justifying it to myself.
Btw, I bought my first springer in 1983, and the spring is as good as new to this day and I have no doubt it will be for life. How many shots I can't say, but I probably put 5000 thru it the first few months. Granted it's top German quality, but even my cheapo springers are holding up nicely. Nitro springs not so much... My only real pcp experience was with a .22 Marauder @ ~33ftlbs, and was only doable because a friend had a pump. I remember it was ~200psi drop per fill, and ~60 shots? So with a 3k tank it was basically just one good fill. Now "if" he could've gone to 4500 I suppose it's safe to assume 8 fills? So 500 shots? Once I moved away from said friend I got rid of the M-rod... Yes I regret it, but unwilling to drop the coin or hand pump it. So clue me in on your shot count secret, maybe it'll be worth getting a tank. I've also considered making a small pump that will just charge the gun, but I'd need serious persuasion to start that project... Ironically I have all the dry nitrogen I could ever use at work, at up to 10kpsi, but unfortunately filling my stuff is not an option

I am wondering if you can just get the tank recertified.

I want to say the .177 target rifles use less air, but don't really know.

In my case: Half of the problem with PCP is money and the other half is the learning curve. There is no reason for me to leave the 853 unless it is for a more accurate gun. I would be sorely disappointed to spend $350 and up to make a sideways move.

Also RE the Sheridan mine is from the 70's and I do find the newer ones to not be as desirable, mainly in the trigger dept. I paint the front sight on mine with flat black paint as a Silver Streak in the sun is not so great.

 

[Crawfish1]

Chevota,


I typed out a long detailed reply but some how it got erased. The short version is I shoot about 25-30 FPE out of a Marauder for keeping the peace with the neighbors because it is silent. The Marauder holds 13.1 Cu inches of air. The bulk tank I use is a 4500 PSI 437 Cu foot tank. That should equate to 58,087 Cu inches of air. If you calculate it out the shot count of a 40 -50 string refill it is crazy. I know I can go through 20 tins of pellets before running out.

If you shoot a 50 FPE Condor you will get 25 shot string @ 29 Cu inches of air consumption. Either way the shot count is pretty good considering what it costs to refill the bulk tank.

If you shoot a Matador it is some where in between.

The tank is a rental it cost $8.00 a month, the foster fitting adapter from P/A was $100.00. I did not buy a hand pump or a shoe box pump. When my tank needs hydro testing I don't have to pay anything they just exchange it. I went this way because it was the most cost effective at the time. My first PCP I bought used off of Gun Broker because I was unsure like every one else because it is a lot of money. The Marauder proved to be worth while for my needs. You know how it goes you get one then three and so on.

The tank I use is steel and only good for a stationary shooting area. It weighs around a 100 LBS. I shoot reactive targets primarily. I don't have to go to a remote location. If you had to pack the tank I use forget it. It would suck. I am fortunate to have a hundred yard range off of my back deck with a good backstop. Most of my shooting is @ 50 yards. I use a 14 power scope and snipe dandelion stems and blades of grass albeit not at 50 yards. These guns are amazing for what they are.



For people yet to experience PCP If you want quiet the Marauder is a good choice.

 

[Chevota]

Ok, that makes way more sense. Most of us only use standard size scuba tanks. I'd still be fine with ~33ftlbs of the Mrod I had, but looks like it's back in the not gunna happen anytime soon area.
WNTFW: The carbon fiber tanks, which are the ones that can hold 4500 and still be portable have a 15yr life, so mine is done.
fpgt72: Yes it can be hard to find a place that can do 4500. Last time I checked which was maybe 10yrs ago it had to be sent out of town to be filled, but I imagine local dive shops can do it now that CF tanks are much more popular. People that don't live near a dive shop may still have a problem...
They do sell a pump that can do it, but then you're looking at too much $ between pump and tank for most people to consider worth it.
Btw Crawfish; if I write too much or get distracted the site times out and sometimes the data is lost which is extremely frustrating, so I always copy the text before hitting send just in case....

 

[fpgt72]

Type of tank does not determine pressure for diving, it is the regulators. Most dive shops only fill to 3000, as that is all they need to do.

 

[amd6547]

Deleted due to lack of interest.

 

[ChaoSS]

Type of tank does not determine pressure for diving, it is the regulators. Most dive shops only fill to 3000, as that is all they need to do.

Regulators bring the pressure down to levels where people can breathe properly. Tank construction determines maximum safe psi, and yes, most steel tanks are rated for 3000 and CF are 4500.

 

[WNTFW]

I had one guy tell me if you say the tank is not for breathing air they will fill it to higher PSI.
That really didn't sound right. I know our welding and propane bottles are nothing to clown around with. I have had both get out of date and need to be re hydro tested. Personally, I would rather be safe than sorry.

I can see the higher pressure being a deterrent to PCP just for the fear factor of HP air.

 

[Crawfish1]

"I can see the higher pressure being a deterrent to PCP just for the fear factor of HP air."

No doubt,
I have sometimes wondered myself what part of me would be destroyed if the PCP tank let go while filling it. Knock on wood I am still all here in one piece. Scary to think about 3k in a pressurized metal tank cutting loose. I am sure it has happened before.

 

[WardenWolf]

Crawfish1, paintball air tanks (not CO2 tanks) are typically pressurized up to 4500 PSI (there's both 3k and 4.5k models but 4.5k is more common) and people run around with them and slam them into things while playing. They're perfectly safe if designed right. The way they're typically made is they're an aluminum tank wrapped with carbon fiber strands and then glazed. The carbon fiber prevents the tank from expanding and giving way, and ensures that even if it does somehow blow that there won't be any shrapnel. There's also all-steel tanks which are heavy as hell but equally safe.

I've worked with high-pressure air tanks plenty of times. They are HEAVILY regulated. As long as the tank itself is from a reputable source, you have nothing to fear. You're far more endangered by a CO2 canister or even a 12-gram than a 4500 PSI air tank, because CO2 is highly heat-sensitive. I've had a CO2 burst disc blow on me plenty of times just due to the temperature changing since it was filled. Never had a single problem with HPA, since HPA is always filled to slightly lower than the tank's rating and air pressure raises MUCH more slowly with temperature.

 

[Crawfish1]

What concerns me about the tank is not so much design failure but rather failure due to corrosion from inside out. I know it's a unlikely scenario but I won't say it does not ever cross my mind.

 

[fpgt72]

I had one guy tell me if you say the tank is not for breathing air they will fill it to higher PSI.
That really didn't sound right. I know our welding and propane bottles are nothing to clown around with. I have had both get out of date and need to be re hydro tested. Personally, I would rather be safe than sorry.

I can see the higher pressure being a deterrent to PCP just for the fear factor of HP air.

They have to fill then purge several times then test if the air is for breathing. They don't have to do any of that if it is not for human use.....makes it much faster think a 5min fill vs 45min to an hour....and a great deal more manual work in the testing.

They will not (or should not) put any more pressure in the tank then it is rated for. And as 99% of tanks used for human breathing are rated at 3000# that is all most dive shops fill to.

Now most fire fighters use the smaller tanks filled to higher pressures, but again most FD's have the equipment to fill and test their own tanks....or have a relationship with a larger FD that will do the work for them. You don't see that many small tanks on divers as they are just not rated for that.

So back to your statement, they should not be putting more air in the tank, but they do not have to go to all the pain of testing the air and make sure it is not contaminated if you are not breathing it....and that makes the fill cheaper...or should.

 

[fpgt72]

What concerns me about the tank is not so much design failure but rather failure due to corrosion from inside out. I know it's a unlikely scenario but I won't say it does not ever cross my mind.

Never seen that happen. You have to remember that the air going in is very dry, and the pressure it is being pumped in at makes a great deal of heat. And to add this is the reason the tanks have a shelf life (or one reason anyway).....Then the testing will show if there is any moisture in the air (again something they don't have to do if not for human use).

The pressures are nothing to fool around with, but the tanks are pretty safe, you just have to use your head....that said I am shocked we have not seen a news story of someone blowing one up yet.....they are really over built but I don't underestimate peoples stupidity.

 

[mje]

Stay away from the lightweight pellets. They're harder on the guns, less efficient in extracting energy from a spring or air reservoir, and less accurate.

I usually shoot 7.9gr Crosman Premiers or 8.4gr Air Arms pellets. When I was shooting competitive Airgun Field Target, a lot of the British guy used 10.5gr Premiers in 12 foot-pound spring guns. Their trajectory was blooper than the lighter pellets, but they were better at bucking the wind.