Differences in 1911's

[stogiegila]

I have always found the look of a 1911 to be classic (especially love the stainless models). I have tried to search out threads to get a clue as to which ones are considered the best, but I haven't been too successful.

I've owned a SA 1911 GI model, and while I liked the gun, I felt it was a bit crude or rustic in feel and kicked a bit more than I liked. My last trip to the range I rented both a S&W 1911 (in stainless, not sure which model) and a Nighthawk (definitely don't know which model). Anyway, I preferred both much better than my old SA.

My question lies in what changes exist that makes the same model or design gun cost between $400 - $2,500+

I really liked the S&W 1911 (I believe it was the stainless and scandium model, but not sure). I don't know how to load a picture of it (it never seems to work for me correctly). Fit and finish seemed nicer than the SA, but is that all you get for double the price. The gun sells for $800.

So are there significant design changes that make the prices vary so, or is it strictly cosmetics and are they worth it?

Secondly, I'd like some opinions on the SW 1911 and other models as to which have been the most reliable and which ones most people prefer.

The SW I shot at the range worked flawlessly, but the Nighthawk failed to feed several times. I take this with a grain of salt as these range guns are abused beyond belief and I don't think they are ever cleaned.

Any input would be appreciated, as I'm saving for a birthday present to myself

 

[Geno]

100 rounds, 3,000 rounds or 6,000 rounds & failures

According to the testing requirements established for the 1911 when it was proposed to be adopted for the military, it matters not if you have fired 100 rounds, 3,000 rounds or 6,000 rounds, you should not be experiencing failures in a genuine 1911. Check the old advertisements for the 1911 around the late teens and early 1920s. They advertised 6,000 rounds and not a single failure.

The most I have pressed my Colt series 70 (stainless) was just over 3,000 rounds, adding oil every 100 to 150 rounds. I never experienced any failure of any sort.

My 1911s have ranged from $750ish for said Colt to $2,000ish for my Custom Shop kimber Gold Combat. It arrived factory defective and had to be returned to the factory either 2 or 3 times.

Cost does NOT equal quality or reliability. I have never owned a S&W, SA or other 1911. I have had 15 Kimbers and 2 were good quality. I know that will get the Kimberites going. So beit, the truth is the truth.

My 3 Colts have all been excellent. The only Kimber I would suggest is the Warrior. It is a series I (series 70) that means no firing pin block.

The problem with modern 1911s is that the companies are trying to make them what they never were...target pistols. They are/were combat/defensive arms. Use it that way and you will be well-served.

Doc2005

 

[steveracer]

Doc,

Amen.
I still occaisionally carry the Ithaca formerly owned by my grandfather. I can't find fault with the right design with the right materials.

 

[ugaarguy]

My question lies in what changes exist that makes the same model or design gun cost between $400 - $2,500+

$400 Mass produced pistol with MIM, cast, and/or plastic parts. Very basic features.

$800 Mass produced, many still have MIM parts. Nicer sights, nicer thumb safety, beavertail grip safety, beveled mag well, front strap checkering, etc.

$1500+ Hand assembled & fitted. Very careful bbl to slide and slide to frame fit. Match grade bbl, very carefully fitted match grade bbl bushing. Hand fitted lockwork, hammer/sear/trigger fitted together as a group for optimal trigger pull & feel. All forged & machined internals - no, MIM, cast, or plastic parts. Some are fitted loose to be a weapon, some are fitted tight to be a target gun not meant for carry - depends on what you tell the smith you want.

Do a search for 1911 in posts by usernames 1911Tuner, and Old Fuff. Read everything these gentleman say about the pistol. Then sit and think, and contemplate. You'll soon form the thoughts in your mind of exactly what you want in a 1911, both in looks and functionality.

 

[mljdeckard]

I've been yelling for a while about people complaining about MIM parts. If they are doomed to fail, I must be doing something wrong.

I carry a Kimber Custom II, it was $630 NIB a few years ago. It has a hand-fitted silde, match trigger group and bushing. I also have a Ciener Arms .22 conversion kit. (HIGHLY recommended.) I put on night sights and Hogue wrap-around finger grips. I dropped the full-length guide rod, and put in a G.I style plunger. (I'll also out in a G.I. style arched mainspring housing when I get around to it.) I regard it as perfect and I will probably be buried with it.

I also shot a Nighthawk at Impact, and I also suffered FTF. That model retails for $2700. It is MAYBE 1" more accurate at 25 yards than mine is. Is one inch worth $2000 to you? It makes me remember Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction. "Wow! That's the best milkshake I've ever tasted. But it ain't worth five dollars."

I read the magazines, and they review $2000 pistols, and I scour them to find out what it is they can do that mine can't. I still haven't seen it yet.

 

[ugaarguy]

I've been yelling for a while about people complaining about MIM parts. If they are doomed to fail, I must be doing something wrong.

Where, in this thread, did I say or even imply that MIM parts are bad? They're just less expensive. Caspian's cast frames work just fine too. Whether or not MIM is any better or worse than machined, the machined parts cost more, and that's certainly where some of the money goes.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I spent $800 on a SA 9mm 1911 with all the bells and whistles, but the basics (frame, slide) were so rough that the pistol never functioned properly.
15 years ago or so I paid over $700 for a Kimber .45 that would feed hollowpoints exactly two out of three times. I don't like those odds.
Recently I bought a Colt Gov't Super .38 series 80 that has been great. Feeds any load I can dream up.
No fancy hammers or safeties or adjustable sights, but it goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
If you like the S&W 1911s, I think you will find them a good value. If you have the means, get a Performance Center model.
I bought a P.C. 952-2 9mm (very similar to a 1911) for $1,400 and it is amazing. Worth every penny. The S&W P.C. pistols are more than just a collection of pretty pieces. They stand behind them better than any other company too.

 

[45auto]

Properly "fitted" 1911s should be more reliable, accurate(depends) and durable with less parts breakage...because they are higher quality parts and fitted. Notice the word "properly".

However, it can take a fair amount of rounds to "determine" the difference. I doubt most 1911s have between 5-10,000 rounds through them in which case, there may be no difference.

And, I'm not anti-MIM and I think you can make a "good" case that once you get beyond the $1500-$2,000 range in a singlestack 45, your "return" on investment is minimal. If you compare a similiar "production gun" from kimber/Springfield, etc, I think you'll find the custom is about double the cost...give or take.

 

[..]

It makes me remember Vincent Vega in Pulp Fiction. "Wow! That's the best milkshake I've ever tasted. But it ain't worth five dollars."

Not even close.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

I have three Kimbers and they have all been excellent. I have four Colts. They have been excellent to very good. I have one Springfield that has been okay. Extra money usually buys a full length guide rod, beavertail safety, checkering, bevelled mag well, etc. all the stuff that has been mentioned before. They are generally very accurate and easy to shoot well. Colt, Smith, Kimber all produce good guns. And they all produce junk occasionally. Dan Wesson, Springfield, Taurus, Norinco, SIG also produce good 1911s. They also produce junk 1911s with a little more regularity than Colt, Smith or Kimber. Still, you have a better chance of getting a good gun from any of those manufacturers than a bad gun.

 

[stogiegila]

Thanks for the input guys,

as well as the links. Very helpful.