Different AR calibers

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Hornady, Nosler, Federal, Silver State Armory (Nosler now?) and Barnes' (to name a few) 6.8 factory offerings are only FMJs?

I know Sellier and Bellot makes FMJ labelled 6.8 ammo though.
I did not say anything about .277 bullet selection (I own a .270 Winchester).

My point is that the military selected 6.8 because they found the terminal performance of 6.5 FMJ to be dissapointing. They are the ones limited to FMJ.

Mike
 
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So long as you are limited to FMJ you are absolutely correct. The 6.8 was a compromise between the trajectory of the 6.5mm prototypes and the lethality of the 7mm prototypes.

For civilian use with modern expanding bullets, I would give that crown to the Grendel.

Mike
Why the crown? Even the modern bullets need a minimum velocity to expand. The two cartridges, 6.8 and 6.5, are very close in this regard with the crown still being undecided.
 
I have SOTA upper 7.62x39 with C-Products mags, works perfect on my OLY 9mm lower.
Rounds cost $0.20-$0.23.
Both caliber not so expansive.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
Reread what I wrote not what you think I wrote.

I read what you wrote. I responded to what you wrote.

Arizona_Mike said:
Keep the development history and intended use of the SPC in mind and take notice of the "C" word in the second sentence.

Keep in mind that I responded to your reference about being limited to only FMJ. Not only is no one limited to only FMJ but I suggest you do some research on hunting and target shooting results with the factory ammunition offerings from the aforementioned companies. I would also suggest you explain exactly why one should limit themselves to only FMJ when regarding 6.8spcII performance.

It has nothing to do with how the round came about, and everything to do with where it's at now.

Arizona_Mike said:
Oh and I own a .270 Winchester

I'm happy for you that you do, but outside of sharing the same bullet diameter with the 6.8spc, you're going to have to be more specific on the point of mentioning this as the two do not share the same bullets outside of handloaders single loading 6.8spcII ARs with .270 bullets mostly due to having too long of an OAL and the .270 bullets are not designed/intended to be used or perform at the velocities of the 6.8spcII chambering.
 
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Revoliver said:
6.5 grendel is a good round if you're looking to squeeze absolute maximum possible distance out of the ar15 platform. After reading many reloading threads though, I don't believe it's long range reign still exists. Also, hunting bullets for this round are not it's strong suit either.

What is the other AR15 platform cartridge that has outdistanced the Grendel?

I have a 90+ page reloading manual written specifically for 6.5 Grendel hunting loads. I'm trying to understand the basis for your comment about a lack of hunting bullets. :confused:
 
arizona98tj said:
What is the other AR15 platform cartridge that has outdistanced the Grendel?

The 140gr Berger VLD 6.8spcII if memory serves.

arizona98tj said:
I have a 90+ page reloading manual written specifically for 6.5 Grendel hunting loads. I'm trying to understand the basis for your comment about a lack of hunting bullets.

How many of those pages strictly and only list the number of hunting bullets offered for the 6.5G and not powder/ladder loading tables and case lengths? Care to name the manual as well?
 
Just noticed that Arizona_Mike had edited his post while I was responding so rather than go into a timestamp edit war I'll just address the new/edited post of his with a brand new post.

Arizona_Mike said:
I did not say anything about .277 bullet selection (I own a .270 Winchester).
Already covered this in my last response to your post that you apparently edited before I posted.

Arizona_Mike said:
My point is that the military selected 6.8 because they found the terminal performance of 6.5 FMJ to be dissapointing.*They*are the ones limited to FMJ.

I understand that, however that still makes no sense. Why do you mention that the US military would be restricted to using FMJ only if they used they 6.8spc and then turn around and say that if you could use modern ammo the 6.5G gets the crown? What's stopping you or anyone else from using modern expanding ammo with the 6.8spc?

Also, the only militaries in the world that currently use the 6.8spcII are middle eastern ones that don't give a rat's arse about other armies only being able to use FMJ. They use Federal 90gr GoldDots (skived tip fusion/bonded) to my knowledge, which the overruns of can be bought right now.
 
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The presumption that the military is somehow restricted to FMJ is in error. They are not.

What is presumed to be an agreement in the Hague Conventions is a restriction to using bullets designed to expand, with either a cut away exposed lead core, or hollow point. It reflected the nature of "just war" ethics in the day, including the primitive medical care available.

What may have resulted in the expedient use of FMJ was more based on what the researchers and designers saw as the real intent of combat - to reduce the ability to fight back by an organized unit. And that doesn't mean you have to shoot them Dead Right There. It's a civilian presumption. What you have to do is get the other soldier to quit shooting back. That is usually accomplished by hitting him with a bullet from your side of the conflict.

Another error made is assuming that it's actively aimed fire. It doesn't have to be - in fact, a significant number of wounded and dead in an active firefight are hit by a round that was never deliberately targeting them. They either moved into the line of fire, or were hit by a ricochet. Random friendly fire is also known to have some affect.

One component of that fire is that it well may have been aimed fire at the barrier a soldier was hiding behind. That is a common tactic, and one ammo designers must address in combat ammo. It does no good to use a quickly expanding round with minimal penetration if all it does is splatter on contact with stone, adobe, building material, dirt, gravel, sheet metal, wooden construction, etc.

Since military ammo is required to penetrate to hit a target soldier in those conditions, then the bullet is designed and constructed to do that. And in the production process, it can be expediently and more cheaply done by stretching a gilding jacket with closed nose, then, loading it with the lead and other ingredients - like, a steel penetrator. And if you can get it to break in half on contact at the cannelure so that it becomes multiple projectiles, so much the better.

That is exactly what our current technology in battlefield ammo is delivering to our soldiers.

For long distance use, another trend was researched, and it was discovered that bullets like the Sierra Matchking. It was developed in the early '50s, and to get the characteristics of having a bullet with a boat tail, weighted toward the rear, with a light nose, it was easier to produce it with an open tip. Note - open tip, not "hollow point." The distinctive difference is that it is not designed for maximum expansion with petals or cutaway open nose, it's designed for long distance ballistic performance, which it proved in Olympic shooting, and where that design still dominates.

Being the choice of long distance shooters, and that the Army uses same as snipers, it was researched extensively. The JAG came out with an opinion in the 1980's that open tip match bullets conformed to the Hague convention and were legal in international conflict. At first glance,they look like FMJ, too.

There is no requirement to use FMJ, it's just how we make our bullets.

How does that resolve whether the 6.8 or 6.5 is "better?" Not at all, there never will be a resolution. It's wrong to try. They were never designed to do the same thing, they never competed in the same events, and it's only the civilian fanboy who does on the internet, because he hitches his ego to a star and thus his self image as a shooter.

And if I remember correctly, some variant of the 6mm PPC holds the record that the 6.5 previously won in long distance competitive shooting using AR15's. Moot point why I would want to use it deer hunting out of a 16" barrel, as the round diminishes in ability more severely in shorter barrels. That is because it uses a slower powder that requires more barrel length to reach it's optimum speed for it's design intent, shooting the more efficiently shaped bullet to longer distances. If you antelope hunt, shoot ground hogs, or have wide ranging vistas for mule or whitetail deer, 6.5 would offer an edge. The tradeoff would be the 20-24" barrel. You could do as well with an 18" .308.

In most of the American heartland where whitetail live in broken woodland and edges, the shorter 6.8 16" AR would perform better, for the same reasons that the Winchester 94 did compared to a Mauser/Springfield bolt action in it's day. Short, light, less recoil, and a faster follow up shot. Entirely where we are today in combat arms.

No winners or losers except the guys who do or don't know how to match the cartridge to what they are shooting at. You don't use a framing hammer on a jewelry box, you don't use a small ball peen to set spikes in landscape timbers. Unless, of course, you think of things only by Brand name and how it reflects on your self image. Neither one rules the roost, they are simply better than the other at what they are designed to do.

If you are looking for another cartridge in the AR15, there are choices, make an informed one and you'll be more satisfied.
 
Just noticed that Arizona_Mike had edited his post while I was responding so rather than go into a timestamp edit war I'll just address the new/edited post of his with a brand new post.


Already covered this in my last response to your post that you apparently edited before I posted.



I understand that, however that still makes no sense. Why do you mention that the US military would be restricted to using FMJ only if they used they 6.8spc and then turn around and say that if you could use modern ammo the 6.5G gets the crown? What's stopping you or anyone else from using modern expanding ammo with the 6.8spc?

Also, the only militaries in the world that currently use the 6.8spcII are middle eastern ones that don't give a rat's arse about other armies only being able to use FMJ. They use Federal 90gr GoldDots (skived tip fusion/bonded) to my knowledge, which the overruns of can be bought right now.
Good grief Revoliver you are still arguing against a point I did not make! I am saying if one chooses to limit themselves to FMJ (at the military does most of the time with exceptions*) the SPC is the better all around cartridge but if one chooses to use expanding bullets the Grendel is the better all around cartridge. Full Stop. Of course both calibers have a full range of commercial bullet selections but I was not arguing that.

*- The US was not an original signatory of the Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III but they try to follow it most of the time. They have made an exception for BTHP match bullets because they were not designed to expand. This is a side issue and not what we are discussing here.

Mike

PS. I only edited my post for clarity because I thought you might read something else into it.
 
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I have no idea if crazysccrmd is a "fanboy" but I don't even own either cartridge so I am coming at the question from a neutral perspective. I have zero personal investment and don't have to defend a purchase.

We have an opinion stated in post 4:
The best general purpose round in a standard AR15 is the 6.8spc.
Things remain relatively calm, then in post 24 I post a different opinion and things seems to suddenly blow up :rolleyes:

I take "general purpose" to mean all around, specifically not matched to a particular application but useful for most.

They are very similar rounds in terms on bullet weight, recoil,and magazine capacity (the latter is slightly lower for the Grendel), so let's look at the exterior ballistics:

Trajectory:
pu6wh.jpg

Retained Energy:
2008-02-18_173715_65G_EnergyChart.jpg

I think the case is pretty clear.

Mike
 
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Arizona_Mike, as asked above, would you be so kind as to post the barrel lengths used for your linked charts?

Also, would you be so kind as to post charts using information attained from the same barrel length for both the 6.5G and the 6.8SPCII?

Lastly, would you also be so kind as to not only use the 'available modern expanding ammo' for both but to also use bullets that are more similar in weight?

Here's an example of what I mean (and I am NOT claiming that this is the 'best comparison possible', rather, just a better comparison than the charts linked above off the top of my head):

http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5-Grendel-123-gr-SST/
123gr SST from a 24" barrel.


http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-120-GR-SST/
120gr SST from a 16" barrel.


Much closer in terms of weight and meeting the 'available modern expanding ammo' points that have been made. Though the 8" longer barrel for the 6.5G results should be noted in the links above.
 
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This link shows some chrono numbers for different barrel lengths. It looks like the quoted 6.5 velocities are from a 20"-22" barrel. 16 inch barrel velocities run closer to 2450 fps, or about what you see with the 120 SST 6.8 factory load. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&so..._KOBc-k570C-t3Sw&sig2=-DqDyIZNN1sM71cWrXe8GQ

This topic has been beaten to death by those that have owned one or the other or both. If you think there is much of a difference between the performance of the 6.8 and 6.5 at realistic meat shooting distances, you probably need to check your numbers because you're missing something.
 
Here are some numbers for you....
6.5 Grendel 19.5" barrel
129 grain SST
27.0 grains of H335
OAL 2.240"

Exit wound just behind the ear, I think it shows it expanded nicely! Range to target 100 yards. This little piggy was DRT so the Grendel is perfect for me.

PigJanuary21Grendel.jpg
PigJanuary21exitwound.jpg
 
This link shows some chrono numbers for different barrel lengths. It looks like the quoted 6.5 velocities are from a 20"-22" barrel. 16 inch barrel velocities run closer to 2450 fps, or about what you see with the 120 SST 6.8 factory load. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&so..._KOBc-k570C-t3Sw&sig2=-DqDyIZNN1sM71cWrXe8GQ

This topic has been beaten to death by those that have owned one or the other or both. If you think there is much of a difference between the performance of the 6.8 and 6.5 at realistic meat shooting distances, you probably need to check your numbers because you're missing something.

Beaten to death for sure. I guess what I was meaning by best general purpose cartridge was that with a 6.8spc you have ballistics suitable for hunting out to 400m and target shooting beyond in an easy to carry 16" barrel length. The 6.5G is great and I would build a nice 24" barreled version if I intended to use an AR15 for longer range target shooting, but once you start shortening the barrel you're moving the cartridge away from where it shines.
 
I would probably choose the 6.8 again if I was going to build another hunting AR-15 due to ammo availability. As it is i'm probably going to build a .300 blk because I have AR hunting covered with the M&P 10 and I'm mostly interested in a toy to shoot subs suppressed.
 
I really like the 6.8 I built a couple of years ago. I handload so feeding it hasn't been that expensive. When I was researching/shopping for parts I wanted to go with 6.5 Grendle but everything was still proprietary, prices through the roof, and parts not available in the configuration I wanted. Presently, I'm considering the 300 Blackout. I realize it wouldn't give me anything substantial I don't already have with the 6.8. I just like the thought of a .30 caliber AR-15 that can use the same bolt, magazines, and brass as the 5.56. I also like the idea of wildcatting a cartridge using a 5.56 case and a .243 bullet.

BTW, Nice shooting TIMC.
 
I shamlessly stold those graphs, have no idea the barrel lengths, and noted the weight differences myself. I don't have the time to hunt down all the data.

These cartriges are very similar and my opinion on "best all around" is actually a split decision between the two based on bullet type. I do not expect the 6.5 to scale well in an SBR.

I did research both a while ago for a hunting gun and my decision was neither. I ended going with a 6.5x55 bolt gun and in an auto for the same role I would have gone with a .260 Rem. I do think a .277-08 with magazine length for heavy bullets might be an interesting animal but as it falls between two excellent cartridges it wil llikely never happen.

[crazysccrmd's 400 yd limit noted and understood. I was not thinking in terms of such a limit. I do a lot of 300-600 yd shooting.

This is kind of liike Ford vs. Chevy and I'm not sure why it turned personal.

Mike

PS. I picked up some 6.8 brass while hiking the other and thought it was pretty handsome brass from a purely aesthetic perspective.
 
This link shows some chrono numbers for different barrel lengths. It looks like the quoted 6.5 velocities are from a 20"-22" barrel. 16 inch barrel velocities run closer to 2450 fps, or about what you see with the 120 SST 6.8 factory load. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&so..._KOBc-k570C-t3Sw&sig2=-DqDyIZNN1sM71cWrXe8GQ

This topic has been beaten to death by those that have owned one or the other or both. If you think there is much of a difference between the performance of the 6.8 and 6.5 at realistic meat shooting distances, you probably need to check your numbers because you're missing something.
That appears to be a 14.5" barrel in your link.

Have we settled on "general" or "all around"=hunting? My idea of "all around" includes hunting and target and it appears the OP is asking about target use.

Mike
 
Arizona_Mike said:
Have we settled on "general" or "all around"=hunting? My idea of "all around" includes hunting and target and it appears the OP is asking about target use.

OP stated "I am trying to get a larger caliber AR for some target and a little hunting."
 
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Thanks for all the great info. I did not mean for Arizona_Mike and Revoliver to get into it, sorry guys, but thanks for the info and ballistics. TIROD had some great points too.
Nice hog TIMC.
I have a lot of info to sort through before I buy/build a new AR.
 
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