Different AR calibers

[Gtscotty]

That appears to be a 14.5" barrel in your link.

True one of them is, I picked up on the 16.25" total length with flash hider attached. There is also a 18" barreled rifle on page 2, both it and the 14.5" are in the 2460's range. The only velocity numbers you see above 2500 fps are on 20" and longer rifles.

Have we settled on "general" or "all around"=hunting? My idea of "all around" includes hunting and target and it appears the OP is asking about target use.

Most folks looking at larger calibers for the AR-15 seem to have an eye towards hunting as opposed to only target shooting, otherwise the extra expense doesn't make much sense over what you can do with a .223.

Here are some numbers for you....
6.5 Grendel 19.5" barrel
129 grain SST
27.0 grains of H335
OAL 2.240"

Nice hog, out of curiosity, what does that load chrono at? I think the Grendel would make a fine medium game hunting round, but to be fair, a hog shot in the brain/spine with anything north of a .22 mag should result in a bang-flop.

3 words:

6.5 Grendel

one word, two numbers and a period:

6.5 Grendel

 

[420Stainless]

Another 6.8 fan here, but factory ammo is still not very cheap. Getting better and more available now though. I see it for sale at some stores locally, but still at a buck a round. Easy to reload if you can find the brass, and if you can't find the brass you can buy loaded ammo to retain the brass from fairly readily now.

 

[Potatohead]

That's four words at best/least.

Six point five Grendel.

LOL...Yea I wondered what kind of spin to put on it...
I was going to go with "one word for you..."

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Thanks for all the great info. I did not mean for Arizona_Mike and Revoliver to get into it, sorry guys, but thanks for the info and ballistics. TIROD had some great points too.
Nice hog TIMC.
I have a lot of info to sort through before I buy/build a new AR.

Actually I don't think we ever got "into anything". He wasn't the one who mentioned "fanboys". I'm the "happy warrior" type on subjects I feel passionately about (this one doesn't even make that cut).

I passed on both the 6.5 and 6.8 and built a 300 BLK so I would not have to buy a bunch of mags and a new bolt (and to be practical a new BCG as well). I do plan to build a SOCOM upper at some point and will get a another BCG at that point but I'm set on mags

Mike

 

[Arizona_Mike]

LOL...Yea I wondered what kind of spin to put on it...

In general the spin I like to put on a 6.5 is 1:8"

Mike

 

[TIMC]

Nice hog, out of curiosity, what does that load chrono at? I think the Grendel would make a fine medium game hunting round, but to be fair, a hog shot in the brain/spine with anything north of a .22 mag should result in a bang-flop.

Very true, shot placement is the key to all so in all fairness to the rifle, caliber and load I should add that it is a freeking tack driver!

To answer your question...
6.5 Grendel 19.5" barrel
129 grain SST
27.0 grains of H335
OAL 2.240"
Muzzle Vel. (fps) is 2390
K.E. Pressure is estimated at 1636 (ft-lbs)

 

[arizona98tj]

6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook, Volume 2, Reloading for Hunting
There are 80 bullets listed for hunting

 

[68wj]

My satellite package has a bunch of channels too, but it only takes one bullet in the chamber. How many are needed, and how many truely perform within the chamber and velocities of the 6.5 G?

 

[TIMC]

Funny how many loads out there for the Grendel now. When I developed my 129 grain load there was no data for the 129 grain bullets, everyone I knew that had a Grendel told me I was weird for wanting to run heavy bullets, now they make factory 129 grain Grendel ammo.

I gave up some range but it is an outstanding hunting load out to about 400 yards for varmints and it has been silly accurate in my rifle.

 

[Dean1818]

A new AR15 Wildcat round being developed, which I believe will have great utility is the .277 Wolverine by MDWS

223 Case (formed)
.277 Bullets
Same Mags as 223
Same Bolt as 223


So far, testing it is showing 1k ftlbs out to 230 to 250 yards with a 110g Bullet
(About double the distance on hunting over a 300blk)

It will be interesting to see how that round plays out.

After learning how to reload for the 6.8, I would have no problem getting into a wildcat if it used commonly available components


Another note:

As a hunter, I do choose to limit the range of my shots. Its nice to have a long range shot, but once you get past 300 yards, you might have some tough tracking on an animal, as it will take a few minutes to get to the start.


I look at it this way

Shooting at 150 yards or less (The vast majority of my shots so far)

The 300BLK is great
The 6.8 is great
The 6.5 is great

Shooting at 200 Yards

The 300 Blk is marginal
The 6.8 is great
The 6.5 is great

Shooting at 250 yards

The 300 blk is not my choice
The 6.8 is great
The 6.5 is great

Shooting at 300 yards

The 6.8 is good
The 6.5 is great

Shooting past 300, my limit to take a shot with the 6.8 is 350k
I MIGHT take the shot to 400 with a 6.5

 

[TIMC]

Where I hunt the ranges are are mostly in the 200 or less catagory with the occasional shot running 250-300 yards but not much I can see past that. I hunt the south Texas brush country and you can only see what walks out in the roads on our ranch so you have to be fairly quick on your shot decision most of the time. I have been hunting there for the last 25 years so I pretty much know the distance of every bush and fence post out there. I couldn't even begin to think how many pigs I've taken out there over the years.

An AR 10 in .308 is my primary hunting rifle but I do like the Grendel for varmints and will usually start using it after I have Thames a deer or two. The .300 blackout I just finished building recently so it hasn't had any field time but it is very accurate out to 200 yards with supersonic ammo so I plan I give it some time this season too.

 

[Tirod]

The difficulty with most new alternate cartridges for the AR is that we've explored both ends of the bolt face diameter and most of the obvious calibers that could work with the case shapes available. It's intermediate, the magazine OAL is a restriction, and moving past that means it's no longer an AR.

The track records of the major cartridges offered are pretty conclusive - it takes superior performance in some category to even get the public's attention, and it does require the adoption and some investment by more than one ammo maker. That means the cartridge gets some scrutiny by number crunchers with experience. These guys work in marketing and need some hooks in the package to draw money out of wallets.

So anyone bringing something else to the table is going to have to trump the .300BO's short track performance, the 6.8 as the best all around, or the 6.5G for long distance champion. And as already noted, you can't force any one of them to do the other's job better. They simply can't.

Where the other wildcats fit in, the companies now have competition and existing market share. It's a tough market. I don't see much ground to gain there.

And the Army has the LSAT waiting in the wings until it's adopted, which explains why nothing is really being done to adopt a new battle rifle. They already have it, with ammo that is 40% lighter. No brainer all the tests were stopped. Brassless ammo is where the market will move when the Army goes that way.

 

[Dean1818]

The difficulty with most new alternate cartridges for the AR is that we've explored both ends of the bolt face diameter and most of the obvious calibers that could work with the case shapes available. It's intermediate, the magazine OAL is a restriction, and moving past that means it's no longer an AR.

The track records of the major cartridges offered are pretty conclusive - it takes superior performance in some category to even get the public's attention, and it does require the adoption and some investment by more than one ammo maker. That means the cartridge gets some scrutiny by number crunchers with experience. These guys work in marketing and need some hooks in the package to draw money out of wallets.

So anyone bringing something else to the table is going to have to trump the .300BO's short track performance, the 6.8 as the best all around, or the 6.5G for long distance champion. And as already noted, you can't force any one of them to do the other's job better. They simply can't.

Where the other wildcats fit in, the companies now have competition and existing market share. It's a tough market. I don't see much ground to gain there.

And the Army has the LSAT waiting in the wings until it's adopted, which explains why nothing is really being done to adopt a new battle rifle. They already have it, with ammo that is 40% lighter. No brainer all the tests were stopped. Brassless ammo is where the market will move when the Army goes that way.

Todays wildcat may be tomorows standard

The reason the Wolverine has my attention is that it uses common parts and is cheaply relaoded.

It has the benefits of the 300blk (except sub) and improves at a significant step

If I didnt reload, I wouldnt consider it, but......

I havent bought a factory loaded anything in over a year. Its all been relaoded

I find 223 brass all over most ranges I go to.........

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

a hog shot in the brain/spine with anything north of a .22 mag should result in a bang-flop.

It doesn't have to even be north of a 22 Mag is the right circumstances. My Grandfather used to butcher a hog and a bull every fall, all he ever used to put them down was one shot behind the ear to the brain with a single action colt revolver in 22LR but he was more or less point blank range when he shot, so much so there was sometimes powder burns on the hides.

 

[Revoliver]

6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook, Volume 2, Reloading for Hunting
There are 80 bullets listed for hunting.

I stand corrected. It appears that industry support for the 6.5G has finally gotten off it's rear since I last researched these alternate calibers. I will amend my first post to reflect this.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I laugh at the never ending inevitable shouting match that results in discussing alternate ar cartridges.

If you want to replace a 30-06 for deer hunting with an AR none of these cartridges fill the bill. They are ALL fairly low powered "intermediate" cartridges.

The REAL king if the ar15 cartridges by a mile in terms of ballistics are not SPC or GRENDEL it's the WSSM's. Most folks who think they know ar alternate calibers don't even know you can get a WSSM AR15 upper.

I've had ar's in
223
5.56
30HRT
7.62x39
6.8spc
450BM

My next build is a 300 BO. I will not do another build that takes it's own special mags. Nor will I rely on a cartridge to continue to be made that relies on its own exclusive and special case head with no common parent case

As a hunter I've also matured from my 300yd 7.62x39 ar days and have come to the conclusion that if I'm hunting somewhere I may need to shoot 200yds + I will take a rifle chambered for a full powered RIFLE cartridge.

 

[Revoliver]

R.W.Dale, are you implying that the 6.8SPCII and the 6.5G (for examples) not considered full powered rifle cartridges?

If you are, then I have to ask, by what criteria are they being judged to be deemed not "Full powered RIFLE cartridges?"

They were both designed to be used in rifles and shot at supersonic speeds and are indeed actually shot out of rifles at supersonic speeds so I am confused.

The term 'intermediate' is used here to denote a performance that falls between that of .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 within the constraints of the ar15 platform to the best of my knowledge. I still do not understand how that somehow also precludes either from being considered a "Full powered RIFLE cartridge" though.

 

[R.W.Dale]

The term 'intermediate' is used here to denote a performance that falls between that of .223/5.56 and .308/7.62 within the constraints of the ar15 platform to the best of my knowledge. I still do not understand how that somehow also precludes either from being considered a "Full powered RIFLE cartridge" though.

You just answered your own question.

And for once Wikipedia has it spot on

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_cartridge


Enjoy the 6.8 and 6.5g for what it is. A step up from 223. However don't delude yourself into thinking it's anywhere near the same class of cartridge as a 308, 3006, 7mm mag, 8x57, 6.5x55 or 270 ect

All of which will deliver significantly more bullet mass at far higher velocities than is capable with anything coming up through an AR magwell. Ballistic coefficients aside which don't really come into play inside 300yds you are still shooting a cartridge that is more similar to 30-30win than anything else in terms of the energies delivered. Understand and accept this and skip the hyperbole in making these rounds out to be something they're not.

EXAMPLE A quick query into my ballistic app shows the highest energy factory load for 270 @3200 ft lbs and some change

Compared to 6.8spc (same bullet dia) @ 1838 ft lbs

That's pretty intermediate between handgun and rifle classified cartridges as per the classic definition. Now I agree that KE isn't the end all indicator of cartridge performance but it's a handy comparative indication of just how much power one cartridge has on tap over another to propel bullets down range.

 

[jerkface11]

They were both designed to be used in rifles and shot at supersonic speeds and are indeed actually shot out of rifles at supersonic speeds so I am confused.

You can say that about .22lr as well. If you want to step up to the next power level in an AR get an OLY in one of the WSSM rounds. I've got the .25WSSM and it falls right between .257 Roberts and .25-06. They've got one in .30 cal that's actually more powerful than .308.

 

[Revoliver]

Thank you for the information, though I must say that I've never considered either cartridge to be on par with the .308's capabilities.

Typical characteristics of an intermediate cartridge are*muzzle energies*ranges between 1,300–2,700*J (960–1,990*ft·lbf), muzzle velocities of 600–900*m/s (2,000–3,000*ft/s) and bullets of 3–9 grams (46–139*gr).

I never knew there was another definition for intermediate cartridge than the one I posted above. Though I don't wholeheartidly agree with it, there it is.

 

[arizona98tj]

I laugh at the never ending inevitable shouting match that results in discussing alternate ar cartridges.

If you want to replace a 30-06 for deer hunting with an AR none of these cartridges fill the bill. They are ALL fairly low powered "intermediate" cartridges.

While I realize the .30-06 has been around since the WWI days and might very well be one of the most popular rifles associated with deer hunting, how much muzzle energy does one need to drop a 200 pound deer? For 30 caliber rifles, I have .30-06, .308 Win, and .303 British rifles in my safe. Every one of them has gone deer hunting with me. I consider all of them more cartridge than necessary to put down a deer...at least the ones I hunt in northern Minnesota. My 6.5 Grendel was never intended to replace any of the above mentioned calibers. Spending time thinking it could is nothing short of silly. However, it is more than adequate to take white tail during the fall and will be used for that. The fact that 7.62x39 brass can be easily converted to 6.5 Grendel brass is handy, IMO.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I was just re-reading Maj. Ehrhart 2009 thesis in which he discusses alternative cartridge options and the historical testing that was done and it is pretty clear from context and discussions of wounding mechanisms that the testing I referred to earlier was done exclusively using FMJ ammo for general infantry use. He concluded given that criteria and a 500m max range, the 6.8 was the best option for general infantry use.

Mike

 

[swordwaver]

I own a Grendel and love it. I shoot 123 Hornady a-max bullets Molly coated bullets and load 30.5 grains of 2520 powder. I am trying accurate 2495 but it falls short at longer range, almost 2 feet at 500, got the load for 27.5, will up it a little at a time to see how it goes. The 2495 27.5 shot .4 at 100 yds but fell off quickly. The acc. 2520 shoots the gong at 750 easily but most three bullet groups are .8 at 100 yards. One good thing about an Ar style gun is the speed at which you can put rounds down range accurately. My partner shoots a bolt action 308 and at 750 yards I can hit the gong 6 times before his second shot. Which would you rather have as an over watch? If anyone has info on the 2495 for the grendel let me here from you
thanks

 

[Thompsoncustom]

I have ar in .308 and its a great gun that I can recommend but there are more powerful longer range ones out there like the ar30 in 300 win mag.

 

[ZX10Aviator]

6.5mm grendel, one of the best!