different in Subs & Real BP

Status
Not open for further replies.
that’s something I need to wrap my head around. 1-2 gains over anything smokeless and it a BIG issue.

IIRC Sam Fadala who wrote the book for Lyman on black powder tried to see if he could overcharge muzzleloaders in the 70s. I think he finally managed to blow one up, but he was close to filling the barrel with powder and using two bullets, or something similar. Add in modern metallurgy in current manufacture guns and it is pretty much impossible to have problems with a little extra black powder.

And yes, you use a lot of powder. My hunting charge with a 54 round ball this Fall will be 90 grains of powder. That is considered a good deal less than a "magnum" charge.
 
I started questioning the air gap deal when I got my 1863 Sharps. Because of the way the breech block is made you can't possibly have no air gap. Mine held 110 grains of loose powder with a ringtail bullet. The factory recommended charge was 80 grains. Now the powder would touch the bullet but the top 1/3 or so of the chamber was nothing but air. I have seen videos of people loading 40-50 grains and bumping the butt on the ground to get as much powder next to the breech block as they could. That left a substantial air gap between powder and bullet but they suffered no ill effects.
air gap in BP! I’ve always heard it a bad idea.
 
IIRC Sam Fadala who wrote the book for Lyman on black powder tried to see if he could overcharge muzzleloaders in the 70s. I think he finally managed to blow one up, but he was close to filling the barrel with powder and using two bullets, or something similar. Add in modern metallurgy in current manufacture guns and it is pretty much impossible to have problems with a little extra black powder.

And yes, you use a lot of powder. My hunting charge with a 54 round ball this Fall will be 90 grains of powder. That is considered a good deal less than a "magnum" charge.
90 grains of Powder!!! lol

my 7STW uses 80 grains of powder and it a Should thumper and throat burner.
 
So your telling my it takes 33 grains of BP for a 45 Colt! that a ton of powder!

The original load was 40 grains but those were balloon head cases. A modern case should hold about 36-38 grains with a 250 grain bullet.

does Pyrodex and T7 store like BP or smokless. I’ll pick up some just to have

I store bp, Pyrodex and smokeless the same way. In the original containers in a cardboard box.
 
that’s something I need to wrap my head around. 1-2 gains over anything smokeless and it a BIG issue.

The difference between 25 grains and 30 grains of Blackpowder/substitute is hardly discernible for me at least. The fact that 777 is “15%” more powerful than regular blackpowder isn’t a concern for me unless I am throwing maximum powder volumes, like 125 grains in a Hawken. I used 777 like any other substitute in cowboy action shooting competition in .38 Special and .45 Colt cartridges. Could not tell the difference. I don’t think you could tell a difference without a chronometer, and then only under conditions using large powder volumes.

You are correct, BP is MUCH more forgiving than smokeless powders.
 
Heh, well, one of my rifles chucks a 535 grain lead minie ball.
what gun is that! 535 gain of anything sounds like a adventure

I’m glade I discovered BP in at 43! I see lots of pretty rifle and pistols to collect.

You guys ever shot a 45/120? seen one on sale at Beltway Pawn & Guns in Charlottes NC, was $850, thought that was very expensive then
 
what gun is that! 535 gain of anything sounds like a adventure

I’m glade I discovered BP in at 43! I see lots of pretty rifle and pistols to collect.

You guys ever shot a 45/120? seen one on sale at Beltway Pawn & Guns in Charlottes NC, was $850, thought that was very expensive then

Civil war reproductions are often sized and rifled to shoot large 58 cal minie balls. I actually hunted with a round ball in this rifle last year. Just the ball weighs 278 grains. Has a metal butt plate, too, but once you figure out how to hold them and realize that these are big, heavy rifles, the recoil isn't particularly nasty.
 
well a Ruger #1 recoil pad, Still hurt like heck

Try a .690 round ball that weighs 490 grains in a 12 gauge that weighs five pounds with 100 grains of powder and has a steel recoil pad and you'll think your 7 mag is a .22.

Civil war reproductions are often sized and rifled to shoot large 58 cal minie balls. I actually hunted with a round ball in this rifle last year. Just the ball weighs 278 grains. Has a metal butt plate, too, but once you figure out how to hold them and realize that these are big, heavy rifles, the recoil isn't particularly nasty.

My .58 Enfield doesn't kick much at all.
 
Hello Mark_Mark,

I started with Goex Black Powder, but because I couldn't get it locally switched to Triple Seven in my Muzzle Loaders.
One big difference I noticed was the fact when prepping my rifle for loading, I'd snap a few caps then put about 5 gr. of powder in and snap another cap.
With the Black Powder, it would ignite and dry out the barrel, but with the Triple Seven it didn't ignite as well and I could pour the non-burned powder out of the barrel.
As far as accuracy, I haven't notice any difference.

I have never tried APP in my rifles, but did purchase a case of Black MZ from Sportsman's Warehouse when they were cleaning out,
I do use this in my Conversion Revolvers and am very happy with it. If I ever burn this all up, I'll try Shooters World's Multi Purpose Black (supposed to be the same as Black MZ).

AntiqueSledMan.
 
air gap in BP! I’ve always heard it a bad idea.

In general, yes, not a good idea. BUT, look at the design of a 1859 or 1863 Sharps breech and say the same thing again with a straight face. That said, the Sharps breech has lots of steel around it v a conventional muzzleloader.
 
IIRC Sam Fadala who wrote the book for Lyman on black powder tried to see if he could overcharge muzzleloaders in the 70s. I think he finally managed to blow one up, but he was close to filling the barrel with powder and using two bullets, or something similar. Add in modern metallurgy in current manufacture guns and it is pretty much impossible to have problems with a little extra black powder.

And yes, you use a lot of powder. My hunting charge with a 54 round ball this Fall will be 90 grains of powder. That is considered a good deal less than a "magnum" charge.
No, he didn’t blow up a rifle. He did this experiment with “gun barrels” he made of 1/2 inch K copper. He’d discovered that the I.D. of that pipe was close to 54 caliber so he loaded normal charges, then double charges, then double charges against double balls without blowing anything up. Eventually he began short starting the ball and was able to produce a bulge in the “barrel”. I haven’t looked at that issue of the blackpowder digest in some time but in order to rupture the copper tube, he had short start the ball by a considerable amount.

There was a video on YouTube in which two guys tried to overload a cva rifle. They eventually filled the barrel completely full of black powder leaving room only for a ball and it didn’t blow. They were only able to blow it up by loading with smokeless powder.
 
I wonder about the airspace thing, too. An old article on the Swiss Federal .41 described the Wild System ramrod which had a shoulder to stop bullet seating .10" above the standard powder charge.

On the other hand, it is quite possible to ring-bulge the chamber with airspace over the wad in a BPCR.

A number of years ago there were some failed barrels, foreign made out of free machining leaded steel not shock resistant enough even for a muzzleloader.

A friend loaned out his TC Hawken to a guy who kept shooting dirty until he got the barrel so foul that he could not ram a patched ball all the way. So he shot it out. Bulged barrel, which TC replaced but friend said it was never as accurate as the original.
 
The real difference is what they are made from and how they are made.

In a what it means to you or how you load them way. This might be helpful.

upload_2022-8-20_10-16-32.jpeg
 
Real black powder has been just as available as hen's teeth in my area for a lot and I mean a LOT of years. Pyrodex is almost always available and I switched to it. Honestly I can't tell any difference between it and and the real BP. I use it in sidelock rifles and pistols plus revolvers. I have some that has been around for years and it seems to be as good as new. I have never used any of the other substitutes. Same boom, same cloud of smoke, and the same corrosion factor as real BP is what I have found. Clean quickly with hot water and no problem.
 
So your telling my it takes 33 grains of BP for a 45 Colt! that a ton of powder!

Actually, the charge will vary slightly depending on the brand of Black Powder you use.

Unlike Smokeless powders, where the manufacturers go to a great deal of effort to make lot after lot exactly the same, Black Powder made by various manufactures does not all weigh the same.

A bunch of years ago I made up a chart of the actual grain weight of the various brands of Black Powder I use in my standard loads.

The column on the left indicates the standard sizes in Cubic Centimeters of the Lee dippers. Then the other columns are for the various powders I have used over the years. 2.2CCs is the charge I use in both 45 Colt and 44-40. If you look across the row you will see that the heaviest powder was Elephant FFg, weighing 37.5 grains for a 2.2CC charge. The lightest is Goex FFg, weighing 32.3 grains. Currently I use Schuetzen exclusively, and the charge weight of 2.2CCs of Schuetzen FFg is 33.3 grains. I made this chart up for reference only, just to get an idea of the actual weight of my charges. I would not be surprised if the weights had changed a bit by now, because Black Powder manufacturers do not go to the extreme lengths that Smokeless manufacturers do to keep their powders consistent from lot to lot. Also, if I stuffed a little bit more powder in, that would affect the charges too. These are just my standard loads. 4.3 CCs of Schuetzen FFg is what I use in my 12 gauge Black Powder shotgun ammo. Also, as has been state several times, a couple of grains plus or minus of Black Powder does not matter a whole lot.

pml7GTgRj.jpg




Regarding modern powder capacity vs the powder capacity of the old Balloon Head cases: On the left in this photo is an old Balloon Head 45 Colt case, on the right is a modern 'solid head' 45 Colt case. I cut them in half for this photo. You can clearly see there is a little bit more powder capacity in the old Balloon Head case than in the modern case. I'm not exactly sure when Balloon Head cases stopped being made, but for most of the late 19th Century, and probably a few years into the 20th Century, that is the way cartridge cases were made. So clearly a little bit more powder could be stuffed into the old Balloon Head cases than modern ones. Oh, I know there are guys who jam 40 grains into a modern 45 Colt case, but they are compressing the dickens out of it to get that much powder in there. Plus, I have no idea what brand of powder they are using, as my chart shows, 40 grains might be easier to stuff in, depending on the brand and granulation of powder you are using.

po2Wtjywj.jpg




Now, compare the old Balloon Head cases to these. This is 45 Colt and 45 Schofield ammunition the way it was first manufactured by the government run Frankford Arsenal in 1873-1875, and perhaps a bit later. The cases of this ammo were copper, not brass. The priming system was different than modern primers. The priming material was deposited on the bottom of the case, then an Anvil Plate with two holes in it was pressed down on top of the priming material and crimped in place. The crimp at the bottom of the cases is what kept the Anvil Plate in position. When the firing pin struck the center of the copper case, the priming material was compressed and ignited. The resulting flame traveled through the two flash holes in the Anvil Plate to ignite the powder charge. Looking at the rear of the cartridges, they appear to be rim fire cartridges, but they are not. This early system of priming was a centerfire system, called Benet priming after the head of the Franford Arsenal, who invented it. Anyway, my point is the old Benet primed, copper cased shells had slightly more powder capacity than the slightly newer Balloon Head cases, and these were the ones that actually contained 40 grains of Black Powder.

pnIRvdUMj.jpg




This is a box of 45 Colt cartridges from my cartridge collection. I positioned three rounds from the box next to a modern reload of mine. You will notice these cartridges only contain 30 grains of powder. The army had decided by this time (1874) that the original charge of 40 grains of powder was just too much in a revolver, so the charge was reduced to 30 grains. The extra space was taken up by cardboard wadding.

pnk54uT9j.jpg





The dreaded air gap between blackpowder/ bp substitute and a projectile…

There is enough historical, anecdotal evidence that an air gap between black powder and projectile can cause barrel bulges or barrel rupture that one should not dismiss the concern completely. But there are a dizzying number of variables involved. Caliber, weight of projectile, volume of powder used, brand and granulation size of the powder, amount of the air gap itself, etc. Isolating and testing each combination of variables is beyond my means and interest.

I know from personal experience that a scant air gap in a .38 Special blackpowder cartridge causes no problem. But I am not going to encourage anyone to ignore the presence of a gap. I view the old rule of thumb, “ don’t allow an air gap between powder and projectile” as an easy safe way to avoid potential dangers that could be caused by all those other variables.

You pays your money and you takes your chance.

I heartily agree. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show this is not 'nonsense'.

The theory is, since Black Powder is a true explosive, not a progressively burning propellant like Smokeless Powder, if an air gap is left in the cartridge with Black Powder, the powder can burn partially or fully before the bullet gets a chance to get out of the way. This can cause pressures to skyrocket.

Clearly there are many different variables. A friend called me up one day saying he would like to load some Black Powder cartridges using hollow based bullets, and wondered if the small pocket of air created would be a problem. I said probably not. Those 30 grain cartridges pictured above have wadding taking up the extra space inside. the 45-70 cartridges used by Cavalry for their lightweight Trapdoor carbines only had 55 grains of powder inside. The extra space was taken up by wadding. I would assume the government did this for a reason, it was extra work, and increased the cost, to fill up the empty space with wadding.

I too err on the side of caution. There is never any airspace left in any of the BP cartridges I load, and I load a lot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top