Dillion 550B vs 650 vs Lee

[BigJakeJ1s]

Maybe APS strips are not a total pain to load up, but they are less convenient than tubes, especially since they only hold 25 at a time. Can you load up 100 primers at a time in an APS equipped progressive? Can an APS equipped progressive warn you with a buzzer that you're low on primers? For the $$ spent on the APS strip loader, the FA vibra-prime will load up a tube of 100 in less than a minute, from factory packaging to tubes. That's less than 10 minutes per 1000.

I'll concede that, if you only want to use CCI primers, and buy them in strips, they are more convenient.

I use hand priming tools and never touch primers with my hands. They go straight from the factory package into the priming tool tray, and then into the cartridges, without me touching them.

I also absolutely do not buy the hype that APS priming systems are safer than tube primer systems like the 550, 1050, and LNL AP. The separation between the primer being seated and the next one in the magazine is much closer on an APS system (or the Dillon 650 for that matter) than on the tube feeders mentioned above. Besides, if a strip or tube of primers does go off, I want a steel wall between me and them, not a plastic strip.

Andy

 

[BigDog(RE)]

Well, I am going to go on a limb here and disagree with everyone that says starting with a progressive is to complicated.

If you can't figure out how to setup and install a 550/650 with the manuals, then you have no business handling loaded firearms. Its not rocket science. Read the intructions carefully, double check everything, and you will produce good safe ammo (as long as you follow load guidelines).

As for 550B vs 650Xl, Brian Enos has a good section on that at his website (he is also a good guy to buy from).
http://www.brianenos.com/pages/dillon.html#which

 

[Powderman]

No, setting up a progressive press is not complicated at all.

My point is this--with a progressive press you must be aware of everything that is happening with the press while it is in operation. In other words, you must keep your eyes on five stations AT ONCE.

This can be too much for the beginning reloader. It is better to start with doing each step separately, and to learn each step thoroughly before moving on to the progressive press.

 

[1911user]

Both the 550B and LNL-AP presses can be operated with only 1 case at a time (like a turret press) as new reloaders gain an understanding of the different steps and adjustments for each stage. Once they are comfortable with the process, then it's a simple matter to slowly work on a shellplate full of cases.

 

[spencerhut]

A primer low warning buzzer? You don't need such a thing on the APS system. You'd have to be brain dead to not notice the number of primers remaining since the strip is sticking out at you as you load. When the strip gets short you add another.

The strip loader is free with the Pro2000 press.

The APS system is not hype. There is no way the primers in the strip can set each other off. The primer being seated is at least 1" from the next primer in the strip. Even if you purposely set off a primer in the strip the force would blow away from the strip anyway, not up into the next primer like in a tube system.

I really think you ought to try the system before you bash it. Especially when we have a new person just stating that has stated a concern about primer detonation.

APS is the safest, easiest, most hassle free way to prime, period.

Spencer

P.S. I'm in Central California, Fresno area, if anyone wants to try out my Pro2000 I'd be glad to let them.

 

[mainmech48]

First progressive I bought was a Lee Pro-1000. Most of the decision was based on the attractive price/"features" ratio. Wish I'd spent the extra money for a Dillon.

The Lee primer feed system is the biggest PITA. Unless the entire feedpath's kept scrupulously clean reliability is awfull. The slightest bit of dust or residue build-up in there and you'll start getting empty pockets. It's extremely tough to spot impending trouble before you get one, and the path itself is long and difficult to clean thoroughly without some disassembly. I've also grown less-than-comfortable with having a hundred or so semi-loose primers rattling around in a plastic tray pointed in the general direction of my "ruggedly handsome" face. If I'd known about the warning/disclaimer in the manual that the use of any other brand of primers except Winchester and CCI due to the "increased possibility" of mass detonation, I'd wouldn't have bought it.

It also requires a great deal of practice and care to avoid getting a lot of "high" primers. Seating is on the "down" stroke and the "feel" feedback is vague at best.

It's also not, IMO, a good choice for frequent caliber changers. Change-over takes longer and involves more readjustments to get back into full production.

I've been a lot happier with my Dillons. I'll trade auto-indexing for easier set-up, easier routine maintenance, fewer chronic problems and more consistent quality in my reloads any day - even at the difference in price.

In addition to the Frankfort Arsenal tumbler (mine is the older "Midway" version) they make a "vibrator" primer tube filler that's inexpensive, easy and quick to use and eliminates a lot of redundant handling. Highly recommended.

I'd also ditto buying an electronic digital scale (get one with an AC adaptor included) over a balance beam. Many, many fewer critical set-up factors that might affect the accuracy of readings, and much faster to use. Worth the extra $, IMO.

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

A primer low warning buzzer? You don't need such a thing on the APS system. You'd have to be brain dead to not notice the number of primers remaining since the strip is sticking out at you as you load. When the strip gets short you add another.

I suppose it may be easier to remember to keep an eye on the APS strip, since you have to mess with it 4 times more often than with a tube full of primers.

The APS system is not hype. There is no way the primers in the strip can set each other off. The primer being seated is at least 1" from the next primer in the strip. Even if you purposely set off a primer in the strip the force would blow away from the strip anyway, not up into the next primer like in a tube system.

Look closely at the 2000 APS priming sytem; the primers are pressed by the seating punch, directly from the strip to the cartridge. When that happens, the next primer in the strip is less than 1/4" away (and the next one 1/4" away from that, and so on). Pressing the primer into the cartridge is the most likely place and time for a detonation to occur. The arrangement of the primers side by side is of little consequence: witness the accounts of 650 primer detonations, where they have a similar spacing between the next primer in the transfer wheel and the one being seated. On the 650 though, the primer being seated, the ones in the transfer wheel, and the ones in the tube magazine are all covered by steel, with the blast directed harmelessly away from the user. Not so in the 2000 APS system, where you are completely exposed to the last primers in the strip, with nothing between you and them but thin air. You said yourself, it "is sticking out at you as you load." Even the ones already in the press are only separated from you by plastic and (gasp) more primers.

The 550, 1050, and LNL AP tube priming systems transfer one primer at a time, more than an inch from the magazine to the cartridge, virtually eliminating the possibility of a priming detonation at the cartridge (again, the most likely place and time to occur) spreading to the magazine. Even under the remote possiblity that the magazine does go up, the steel tubes safely direct the blast up and away from the user.

I'm an engineer. I make my living analyzing systems to make sure they'll work before they're even built. I don't need to use the APS system to recognize that it is inferior to the tube priming systems of the 550, 1050, and LNL AP.

Andy

 

[spencerhut]

Some people you just can't reach . . .

 

[Numinous]

I don't need to use the APS system to recognize that it is inferior to the tube priming systems of the 550, 1050, and LNL AP.

Ignorance is bliss? At least you admit it.

Regardless of what you think, if you don't have experience with both then you're comments hold zero weight.

I'm happy with my Pro 2000. Being a semi-progressive I was able to use it as a single stage until I had the handle on the reloading process. In the defense of single stages though I ended up buying one anwyays for things like bullet bulling and primer crimp swaging that just work better(or only) in a single stage.

Regardless of the ravenous fanboyism going on in this thread any priming system in a modern press is going to work great and wether you go rcbs or dillon you have a lifetime warranty and excellent customer service to back up their products. I've heard nothing but good things about the Hornady L&L press since they redesigned it too so don't count that one out either.

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

I never said the APS system would not work, or even work well. Like you said, any of the progressive presses' priming systems from RCBS, Dillon or Hornady should function well. There are relative advantages to all of them. Conversely, there are also relative disadvantages too.

Spencerhut started out saying that the APS system is safer than tube feeders. I have shown through analysis that the tube feeders on some dillon (not all) and hornady progressives are at least as safe as, if not safer than, the APS system.

I doubt anyone but the manufacturers does destructive testing on these systems, at least not on purpose! I'll leave the demonstration of the relative safety of these systems to someone else; there are some things I prefer not to know first-hand.

Andy

 

[jjohnson]

Sticking With the Dillon 550B


Mine just rocks. I load probably 10,000 rounds a year, a dozen calibers, have loaded 35 years or so using everybody's equipment. Dillon's probably the best in the industry. If not, they're the "Ruger" class of stuff - solid, good design, priced right, efficient at what they were made for, and extremely good service.

I'm not saying everything else is junk - Dillon doesn't market everything I need like oddball dies and so forth - but with my 550B I got way more than what I'd expect for the money, and it's stood the test of 75 - 100 thousand rounds... I'm happy and not going anywhere else.

Oh, yeah - not bashing APS priming, but it's not an issue with the Dillon. I don't have to shop for anything special, I just buy the 5,000 primers at a time from anybody I want, and the Dillon setup makes it fairly painless.

 

[distra]

Updateillon 550B

Well, I found a sweet 550B online. Complete system with 3 sets of dies, 3 quick change heads, scale, counter, 2 auto powder measure systems, 2 caliber quick change, dial caliper, low powder warning alarm, video, trays, and Lyman manual. Anything else I might need? I have a lot of shooting friends with 550Bs so I'm heading over to a friend's house as soon as it gets here to have him help me set it up. Thanks for all the good advice, with any luck I'll be up a loading next week.

 

[gdeal]

Load 40S&W one night, 45 the next, 38 the next, then 357. Take the next night off, then the weekend to the range and shoot. Clean brass on Sunday, then start the process all over again.

dude, you make it sound too much like work. reloading is suppose to be relaxing and fun.

 

[helg]

First progressive I bought was a Lee Pro-1000.
[..]
Seating is on the "down" stroke and the "feel" feedback is vague at best.

You, probably, forgot that Pro-1000 seats on the "up" stroke, not on the "down" stroke as your memory tricks you with.

 

[evan price]

First progressive I bought was a Lee Pro-1000. Most of the decision was based on the attractive price/"features" ratio. Wish I'd spent the extra money for a Dillon. I've loaded tens of thousands of rounds on my Pro-1000 press. There's a small learning curve to running one- if you are one of those people that wants to open a box and start making ammo with no adjustments, the Pro-1000 is probably not for you. But once you figure it out, it's so easy my 6-year-old daughter can run it.

I make this comparison all the time- a Lee Pro-1000 press is like a Craftsman lawn mower. The Dillon is like a John Deere. Most people don't need a commercial-grade machine to mow their lawn. Some buy the Deere anyway, and that's great if you have the money and want commercial-grade stuff. If I needed 10,000 rounds a month for competition, you betcha there'd be a Dillon 650XL with case feeder bolted to my bench. Since I shoot 10% of that on a good month, my Lee Pro-1K works just fine. Lee's niche is providing features not normally found on inexpensive models at a great price. The Dillon 550 doesn't get you a case feeder or an automatic index. The Pro-1000 does.

The Lee primer feed system is the biggest PITA. Unless the entire feedpath's kept scrupulously clean reliability is awfull. The slightest bit of dust or residue build-up in there and you'll start getting empty pockets. It's extremely tough to spot impending trouble before you get one, and the path itself is long and difficult to clean thoroughly without some disassembly.
"Slightest bit of dust?" "Scrupulously clean?" Please... this is not true.
The system is gravity-fed; as long as you keep primers in the chute, they keep feeding. The feed chute is about what, 4" long? And open on top? A small paint brush wipes it clean in seconds. Just keep it dry, no lube required. You can spot trouble because it's open and you can see if primers aren't feeding. It's really simple- as soon as the primer feed tray is empty of primer- you can see the stack in the chute below the tray- add another 100 primers. Then they feed quite well.

I've also grown less-than-comfortable with having a hundred or so semi-loose primers rattling around in a plastic tray pointed in the general direction of my "ruggedly handsome" face. If I'd known about the warning/disclaimer in the manual that the use of any other brand of primers except Winchester and CCI due to the "increased possibility" of mass detonation, I'd wouldn't have bought it.
I've heard of Federal primers going off in handheld priming tools. Lee doesn't like the Federal primers because they are more sensitive. At least he's honest about it.

It also requires a great deal of practice and care to avoid getting a lot of "high" primers. Seating is on the "down" stroke and the "feel" feedback is vague at best.
I will agree with this- but once you get used to the press (and know how it works) this isn't a problem. Usually I find this is caused by people trying to go too fast and not bottoming out the ram fully before changing direction.

It's also not, IMO, a good choice for frequent caliber changers. Change-over takes longer and involves more readjustments to get back into full production.
What??! It takes me about 2 minutes to changeover calibers in my Pro-1000 & that includes changing discs in my Auto-Disc powder measure. I have all my dies preloaded and preadjusted on turret plates. I have extra shellplate carriers already setup for the caliber to be loaded including the case feeder parts. And the cost to have a spare shellplate carrier ready to go is still less than buying a spare Dillon toolhead and shellplate. Otherwise, if I have to change a shellplate over from scratch, it might take a couple more minutes- call it 5 minutes total to change from 9mm to .45 ACP if I didn't have spare carriers.

I've been a lot happier with my Dillons. I'll trade auto-indexing for easier set-up, easier routine maintenance, fewer chronic problems and more consistent quality in my reloads any day - even at the difference in price.
Again, we're talking the difference between Craftsman and John Deere here. I'm happy with the Pro1K & my consumer-grade lawn mowers. But then, I know how to work on them. Some people do not. I'm not bashing the Dillon- they make a darn good machine- but not everyone needs one. As far as "Consistent quality" goes- ammo loaded in my Pro1K seems to shoot as well as the ammo loaded in any other press people talk about owning. OAL seems to hold true. Powder weight seems to hold very close (-.1/+0)

You, probably, forgot that Pro-1000 seats on the "up" stroke, not on the "down" stroke as your memory tricks you with.

Actually, Pro1K primes on the DOWNstroke of the ram, the UPstroke of the handle. So it's possible BOTH of you are right.

 

[helg]

Seating is on the "down" stroke and the "feel" feedback is vague at best.

Actually, Pro1K primes on the DOWNstroke of the ram, the UPstroke of the handle. So it's possible BOTH of you are right.

Dillon primes on DOWNstroke of the ram, the UPstroke of the handle, same as Pro1K. Does it mean that Dillon has the same problem?

 

[uf-engineer]

I'm new to reloading and I started with the Hornady LNL. I think the LNL is a great press especially for the money. If you setup one station at a time it isn't that hard. You can remove the casing at any station. I started reading the Lymans 49th edition and spend a lot of my free time here researching and learning. I made my first 25 rounds of 45 auto about a month ago. I had good results with them. A few days ago I cranked out 350 rounds. It took me about 2 hours. I'm slow and careful.

 

[Deavis]

If you are getting a progressive, don't waste your time, get the real deal. Get a 650XL (or a LnL) with a casefeeder. You will not regret getting either of those presses. Ignore people telling you that you can't learn to load on a progressive, they work on the same principles as a single stage press and can be treated as such for learning by only putting one round through a stage at a time. Anyone who can read can learn on a progressive press. Drdirk has a point though, there is a little Lee single-stage press in the corner that I use for very specific purposes.

I've loaded on a Lee, RCBS single, RCBS Pro 200, 550, 650, and 1050. The APS system is ok, but I actually sold the Pro 2000 because I don't like loading the strips (I don't use CCI primers). I even tried it with the ram prime conversion, but it was a real pain for me and never worked well.