Dirty Ammo

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Baldman

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Hey folks, forgive an old guy who has shot nothing but brass from lever actions many moons ago but I have a question about steelcase ammo and it being "dirty". I picked up an AR just before the crap hit the fan and recently purchased some Herters steelcase and have Hornady steelcase on back order. I bought it becasue they were the best prices I could find and seemed reasonable ( both about 50 cents a round including taxes & shipping). I know this is still a bit high from normal but it was an acceptable price for me. Now back to the question, what actually makes steelcase dirty? My thoughts are below can anyone let me know if I'm on the right track and also how dirty is this stuff, will I need to clean the firearm every 50 75 100 rounds?

My thoughts on why it is "Dirty":
- the case itself is just dirty , gritty and in some cases corrosive
- the powder in the primer is dirtier / differnet than brass
- the powder in the round is dirtier than brass and / or the steel may not expand as much as brass and any unburnt powder may blow back into the chamber

Thanks for any info given, even if it's just duh, the reason is XYZ you silly old coot.
 
Hey Baldman,
Ammo can be corossive because of the powder or primer. But it's only dangerous if left in the barrel. Just clean after every outing. Doesn't matter if its 10 rounds or 500. Windex or hot water works well to remove the salts. Then dry, and clean with normal solvents. You won't have any problems. Corossive ammo is only dangerous to a weapon with a lazy owner.
 
The only corrosive stuff left on the market is combloc surplus.
Herters isnt corrosive.
Either way just clean your gun when you're done blasting and you'll be fine.

Dirty powder means lots of soot. (Bullseye powder is VERY dirty)
 
It's most likely loaded with a ball powder Baldman.
This one of the reasons the M-16 fouled up so quickly in the beginings of it's use.
 
Many complain of Eastern European ammo as being dirty, brass and steel cased. I suspect their powders. Primers don't amek ammo 'dirty', just corrosive - a different thing altogether.
I like Bullseye - not a dirty powder at all in my experience. Unique - aka "Flamable Dirt" - is horribly dirty. It has gunked up two of my handguns - a semi auto and a revolver -to the point of failure in just three or four magazines/cylinders full. Bullseye does not - I can go all range session.
Brown Bear (steel case) doesn't get as dirty as Unique, but does not chamber in one of my 9mm handguns. Wolf works fine though. Go figure - just slightly different specs I suppose.

I treat ALL steelcased ammo as 'corrosive' even if labeled 'noncorrosive'. Not that much trouble to clean a little better.
 
With all that said - I will add this tidbit in case you didn't know...
Don't use LACQUERED steel case ammo in your AR - like Wolf brand. It will stick in the chamber and your will break the extractor. Don't ask me how I know this...
 
The short answer is its cheap.
Steel cases are Generally covered in some sort of lacquer or poly to lube them up I would not call that dirt tho? nothing about the case its self is corrosive.
Steel is cheaper than brass, they use it to make cheap ammo so they load it with cheap powder, which tends to be dirty.
and if its not surplus ammo Its vary unlikely Its corrosive at all, Ive shot tons of wolf 223 out of my Saiga and some times i dont clean it at all and its just fine.
Hurters in my experience is dirty and will leave a lot of Black curd behind not corrosive though just nasty.

I think you will find the Hornady to be much cleaner as it supposed to be the same as there brass loads just dressed in gray.
 
Thanks Guys, much appreciated. It looks like the Herters is polymer coated but I'll watch out for any lacquer coated ammo. Now if only the weather in Phila will be half decent I can get out and use some at the State Game Lands.
 
Dude I am not spreading lies - because it happened to me with MY gun - with WOLF AMMO. The gun was NEW as well - not some old P.O.S. that was worn out. I was going to fix it myself - then I decided to take it to a local (nationally known among full auto peeps) shop that specializes in full auto/semi auto military firearms just to see what they said. The OWNER took it apart and diagnosed it as a broken extractor caused by the case sticking in the chamber (which I knew the case stuck of course). He told me that the tight chamber tolerances in AR/M4's would not tolerate the steel case lacquered ammo. It's fine for .223 AK/SKS/Saigas because they have a different extractor system and chamber tolerances. I have no reason to doubt the guy - as his company has been in business and producing parts and accessories for semi/full auto stuff for YEARS.
So - yes I take some offense to your post that says I'm "spreading lies". Who is to say the guy in your link knows everything about it just because he ran some "tests"??????
 
Lets take the high road. I for one shoot american brass in the ar, and eastern bloc ammo in the ak. Both are happy and not complaining.
 
The cost of the powders they load is consistent with the low retail price you pay to buy the stuff. Steel cases dont expand like brass and you get blow by. I used a box of russian steel surplus under the monarch name to sight in about a year ago. 4 rounds of Russian steel case was dirtier than 20 Federal Blue box walmart special.
 
Racinfan, has it right, when I bought my mini-14 many moons ago, I bought 500 rounds of Wolf .223 ammo, very cheap. After about 150 rounds I fractured the extractor. I still have 350 rounds of the Wolf left. I occassionally shoot it in my AR's but just a few rounds at a time. Ruger also told me that the laquered cases heat up and get stuck in the chamber, causing undue stress on the extractor. Because I'm an NRA certified gunsmith, Ruger was very gracious in sending me a new extractor. Now firearms like the AK, or Saiga have quite large chambers and it shouldn't affect them that much, they were made rather sloppy for functioning reasons. As far as the dirtier ammo goes I believe someone else touched on that reason "cheaper components such as powder and primers".:D
 
Maybe I am reading the post wrong, but it doesn't seem to be SOLEY the lacquer. It appears even with their testing and their own words that each round is different, one allowing more gases around the cartridge than the other; therefore building up carbon deposits and possibly other elements. So I would venture to say that it is the dimension of the rounds, not what they are coated in. I am sure the lacquer is heated up and may get sticky once the chamber is already fouled, but to me that test would tell me to fire the wolf ammo and clean. Then fire your other brands and clean. There should never be anymore sticking and you still get to fire cheap ammo. Just my two pennies.
 
gadawg, I've fired well over 5000 rounds thru that Mini-14 since I replaced the extractor and not one failure, however the vast majority of the rounds were brass cased that I reloaded myself, using very good components. My AR-15's have had at least 7000 rounds thru both of them without any problems, however I just did a round count on my available Wolf ammo still left over and I've got just shy of 300 rounds. Now granted some rifles will shoot that ammo all day long without a hitch, however if you have a tight chamber, and shoot a lot of ammo in a short period of time, I can allmost guarantee you'll start having problems. :D
 
I have shot the Brown Bear .223 in both of my ARs with no apparant problems. I have never used or fired any of the Wolf .223 ammo.

Other than these being from two different manufacturers, is there any real difference? If so, what?

Here lately I have fired Tula (Herters) 7.62X39 in my 47' almost exclusively. I was able to stock up pretty well right before the craziness began. This ammo does not seem to be any dirtier than anything else that I've used in my SGL-21. I was also able to purchase it for around $5.00 or less a box. Only wish I had bought more.
 
I bought 500 rounds of Wolf .223 ammo, very cheap. After about 150 rounds I fractured the extractor. I still have 350 rounds of the Wolf left.
Click to expand...

I sold what Wolf I had left to a guy with a Saiga .223. You could probably do the same and make money on it the way the ammo situation is now...:)
 
The Eastern European ammo uses a lower quality powder than what we're used to in the US. The powder leaves more residue after firing.
Hornady steel cased ammo is supposedly loaded in their own plant using imported primed steel cases so shouldn't leave the same powder residue as the European ammo.
I use Brown Bear .223 ammo in one of my AR rifles w/o problem. I don't shoot fast nor do I switch between brands. This is my designated steel case rifle. I have plenty of brass case ammo to use in the others but this is the rifle I use when I know I'm going to lose all my empties.
 
Racinfan83 said:
Dude I am not spreading lies - because it happened to me with MY gun - with WOLF AMMO. The gun was NEW as well - not some old P.O.S. that was worn out. I was going to fix it myself - then I decided to take it to a local (nationally known among full auto peeps) shop that specializes in full auto/semi auto military firearms just to see what they said. The OWNER took it apart and diagnosed it as a broken extractor caused by the case sticking in the chamber (which I knew the case stuck of course). He told me that the tight chamber tolerances in AR/M4's would not tolerate the steel case lacquered ammo. It's fine for .223 AK/SKS/Saigas because they have a different extractor system and chamber tolerances. I have no reason to doubt the guy - as his company has been in business and producing parts and accessories for semi/full auto stuff for YEARS.
So - yes I take some offense to your post that says I'm "spreading lies". Who is to say the guy in your link knows everything about it just because he ran some "tests"??????
Click to expand...
Steel cased ammo can result in stuck cases, but that is not a result of laquer. It is a result of soot build up. The steel cases do not expand and seal the breech as effectively as brass cases, so more soot flows back around the case and into the chamber. As one's round count increases the soot builds up and may reach a point where cases stick.
 
Please turn off the annoying green bold font.
Click to expand...

Ok - I will try this one if you like?
I do this in order to find my posts/replies quicker. I am a mod on another forum, with over 5000 posts, all in bold green - and I have posed the question to the 20,000+ members several times if it bothered them. 99% said no. SO - since the option to do that is available on this forum - it must be there for us to use. Considering this is a gun forum where the main topic of the day is "taking away our rights" - then I am using my right to use the site options. Sorry it irritates you. Just look past it....:banghead:
 
IF you found Wolf lacquer-coated ammo, it was either a few years ago or you recently bought some old ammo. Wolf hasn't used lacquer on ammo for years. And yes, the lacquer would gum up the chambers of ARs.
 
1KPerDay, That was an intersting video, however if you noted he did state that the older Wolf ammo was lacquer coated. I noted the packaging to be white and the packaging in my ammo is black and red, and it is definitely lacquer coated, thus the difference. I have fired that older in two of my AR-15s the one is a simple M-4 the other is a SS bull barrel upper 20" with a 6X24 Scope and at 100 yards it will produce under 1" groups with 5 rounds, however with any rounds beyond the 5 it definitely open up quite a bit. With the M-4 It is lucky to shoot 3" groups with a simple 4X scope, tightly mounted. To each his own, needless to say I haven't tried the Herters, or the Tula ammo, and I probably won't. I do prefer my hand rolled.:D Incidentally I bought the Wolf ammo in 1992 I believe in the fall of that year.
 
Racinfan83 said:
Ok - I will try this one if you like?
I do this in order to find my posts/replies quicker. I am a mod on another forum, with over 5000 posts, all in bold green - and I have posed the question to the 20,000+ members several times if it bothered them. 99% said no. SO - since the option to do that is available on this forum - it must be there for us to use. Considering this is a gun forum where the main topic of the day is "taking away our rights" - then I am using my right to use the site options. Sorry it irritates you. Just look past it....:banghead:
Click to expand...
No problem... I'm used to dealing with 6-year-olds. I have kids. :)
 
loose noose, I agree completely with you. That was mainly the reason for my response. I'm sure lacquer coating may contribute to getting the rifle dirty or to leave a deposit, but from that video that was not enough evidence for me to say lacquer was the sole culprit. Every rifle and every shooter will eventually run into some sort of issue, it's the patient ones that resolve the problem. :)

JD
 
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