Disabled discrimination at a range?

[Ramone]

Old 0311-1

Semper Fidelis.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is it possible that it's not so much a matter of discrimination against a disabled Marine, but that they simply don't like you?

Maybe the instructor took a dislike to you and passed it on to the other board member?

 

[1 old 0311-1]

Actually if my disability would cause safety issues that would be grounds for not admitting but they didn't state that. They kept making policies up and throwing issues up in an attempt to dissuade me from joining. THAT, according to that lady at the ADA constitutes discrimination on two points.

I found another local range where the board members know their own rules and are glad to take my money.

It the range is fined, or closed, there are three other outdoor ranges in the area. For what it's worth I found out my FFL, who lives 5-6 minutes away, won't shoot there nor will the County Police.

If people in positions of responsibility, be they paid or volunteers, act outside of the law it is up to the other board members to reel them in, or fire them. By doing neither they condone their actions.

 

[Texan Scott]

1-old, I can't offer advice better than you've been given here. If I were you, I'd be mad as heck... determined yo make them give me a membership just so I could burn it in front of them, with commentary. I'd also be tempted to hurt em as bad as my lawyer could hurt em, yet know that many good folks would be hurt by their club's ruin.

I am so terribly upset to hear about a thing like this happening to a fellow vet. You deserve better. I hope you find a way that seems right to you.

Edited to add: they ARE a private club, and they CAN make their own rules and decide what does and doesn't qualify. I'd like to think, though, that if the general membership knew about this, they might have a thing or two to say.... who knows? Driving a golf cart with a water cooler and a stack of cups could suddenly constitute "participating" at an event if they wanted it to.

 

[BSA1]

To the O.P., et al,

It takes a lot of work to operate a shooting range. Usually it is volunteers that mow the grass, build target frames, pick up trash, etc. And more than not it is the same folks that do the work. Volunteers are a essential part of keeping the expenses low enough to keep the range operating.

The club I belong has a long list of requirements a prospective member must complete in their first year or they will not be given permanent membership. In the O.P.'s he does not state what the requirements for membership are other than paying $ 100.00.

Disability is not grounds for exclusion but not being able to volunteer in some capacity is in my club. And we have a lot of vets.

 

[KMatch]

Maybe because the OP posted what the qualifications were and stated that he couldn't meet them?

He stated he couldn't shoot at matches to which they agreed to double dues. Problem solved. Now, which qualifications were left that couldn't be met?

 

[BBQJOE]

Everybody these days seems to want an exception to the rules.
I see it this way.
If you are not this tall, you cannot go on the ride. Period.

 

[1 old 0311-1]

Hi BBQ,

What exception? I AGREED to be charged double, though there is NOTHING in club rules that state that.

What I, and the ADA people object to, is to the bar being constantly moved. Still confused?

 

[Jim Watson]

I am glad you have found a place(s) to shoot, but you were well on the way to what Grandma called "cutting off your nose to spite your face." The object is to get on the range, not stalk off in a huff because a couple of jerks had to be brought into line.

 

[Black Knight]

First, thank you for your service. You say your FFL and the County Police won't shoot there? That ought to tell you something is wrong there. There is a reason they don't shoot there and it sounds like there is a personality problem as well as a possible safety issue. If it were me I would consider some place safer that appreciates my service.

 

[exbrit49]

The club rules for admission look pretty fair

As I stated in an earlier post, none of us were privy to the actual interchanges between the OP and the club officers. I still think there is more here than meets the eye. I went to the clubs website and read their conditions of membership. They are very clear, concise and very straightforward.
If any of the conditions could not be met, I am sure there could have been some resolution. Instead of competing I think they would have accepted the work alternate that they have posted.
Also, the president has told the OP to re-apply. the OP doesn't want to , he seems to want to hurt the club and it's members, the majority of which probably had no knowledge of this issue.
If the OP is sincere he will reapply and not try to damage the innocent members of a fine club.
There are usually two sides to a story and I sure would love to hear the other side. I am hoping that we might hear from the president of the ACC and the two individuals who are supposedly blocking the membership We might hear a different perspective.

 

[saitek]

piss poor club !

man i wish you were near davenport ia our club would be proud to have you as a member ! there is not a disability in the world that you should be affriad of they will not last long .

 

[X-JaVeN-X]

To those saying that it's the club's right to discriminate since they are a private club...ok...good for them.

But guess what...it's also the OP's right to bring their practices to the light of day to the masses and even file a law suit (whether he has any real legal grounds or not). If the fallout from it has a negative effect on that club...well...tough...right? I mean...that's essentially what you're telling the OP.

Have at it OP...if that club wants to follow those guidelines, then by all means let people know and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[ngnrd]

... it's also the OP's right to ... file a law suit (whether he has any real legal grounds or not).

Really? ... Really?

And how exactly do you justify that, constitutionally? Maybe I missed one of the less well known amendments, but I think coercion is still illegal...

Coercion:

The intimidation of a victim to compel the individual to do some act against his or her will by the use of psychological pressure, physical force, or threats. The crime of intentionally and unlawfully restraining another's freedom by threatening to commit a crime, accusing the victim of a crime, disclosing any secret that would seriously impair the victim's reputation in the community, or by performing or refusing to perform an official action lawfully requested by the victim, or by causing an official to do so.

If the club is operating within their legal rights for accepting membership, there is no cause to file suit; thus, the OP would have no right to file suit.

Again, I don't know everything that happened here. I don't know if the club is acting within it's legal boundaries. And, I don't know if there is/was any actual illegal discrimination.

What I do know is: the immediate calls to sue, or to get the government involved are premature. As was the OP's posting of this thread. The club was willing to work with him regarding granting his membership. But the OP decided it was better to DECLINE pursuing that membership, and instead, post about his bad experience here.

... The club president called me trying to smooth things over. ... He then told me I STILL had to pass the board vote... I declined.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Really? ... Really?

The short answer to your question is:

Yes, really.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

Seems pretty straightforward to me...$150 a year, extra $50 if you're not an NRA member, handgun license, driver's license, shoot or work two matches a year.

This is coming from a guy who is a daily wheelchair user...if you don't want to meet their requirements, quit complaining that they won't let you in.

 

[X-JaVeN-X]

Really? ... Really?

And how exactly do you justify that, constitutionally? Maybe I missed one of the less well known amendments, but I think coercion is still illegal...



If the club is operating within their legal rights for accepting membership, there is no cause to file suit; thus, the OP would have no right to file suit.

Again, I don't know everything that happened here. I don't know if the club is acting within it's legal boundaries. And, I don't know if there is/was any actual illegal discrimination.

What I do know is: the immediate calls to sue, or to get the government involved are premature. As was the OP's posting of this thread. The club was willing to work with him regarding granting his membership. But the OP decided it was better to DECLINE pursuing that membership, and instead, post about his bad experience here.

Did you miss the part where the OP stated he's already contacted people that have told him laws were broken? Yes...really...he can file a lawsuit...whether he wins or not is up to the courts. That's not coercion ... but you can try again if you like...

 

[ngnrd]

Did you miss the part where the club was trying to find a way to accommodate him, and he declined to let the process work itself out?

As a government employee, I deal with desk jockey bureaucrats overstepping their authority all the time. Just because some government employee jumps to conclusions so their agency can justify its existence by assessing some bogus fines doesn't mean any particular complaint has merit. And at this point, the complaint is one-sided. So, what other conclusion would you expect them to make?

Freedom of Association is one of the bulwarks of human freedom, and is clearly protected by the First Amendment. Why are so many 2A supporters so willing to dismiss the tenets of the 1st Amendment?

 

[Davek1977]

Like most claims of discrimination, I just don't see it here. IME, discrimination is real, and it does happen....it just doesn't happen to 95% of the people who CLAIM it happens to them, and in many cases, actual incidents go unreported. Is that the case here? I don't knoqw, but I don't see anytthing blatantly discriminatory here, at least not legally.

 

[tarosean]

What exception? I AGREED to be charged double, though there is NOTHING in club rules that state that.

Are you privy to their bylaws?

Seems to me you only had part of the entire membership requirement. The CCW class. I am assuming you received a permit from it.

 

[itsa pain]

Did you miss the part where the club was trying to find a way to accommodate him, and he declined to let the process work itself out?

As a government employee, I deal with desk jockey bureaucrats overstepping their authority all the time. Just because some government employee jumps to conclusions so their agency can justify its existence by assessing some bogus fines doesn't mean any particular complaint has merit. And at this point, the complaint is one-sided. So, what other conclusion would you expect them to make?

Freedom of Association is one of the bulwarks of human freedom, and is clearly protected by the First Amendment. Why are so many 2A supporters so willing to dismiss the tenets of the 1st Amendment?

sad to say most gun owners are wishy washy on the 2nd amendment and the others. I think it revolves around the fact that there are 2 types of people in this country, one getting a govt check and one who don't and it is easy to pick either side out. I guess it is not biting the hand that feeds you

 

[itsa pain]

Dear 0311,
You're too honorable and noble to associate with that wretched club.
I can guarantee you that there are a plethora of reputable clubs that would be truly honored to have you as a member.

yea he is real honorable. how would you like to be a member of that range if they close it down? there might be 100's of guys there. I for one am sick of extra privileged minorities and the trillions spent on them and the trouble they cause

 

[45_auto]

1 old 0311-1 appears to have a huge amount of confusion on how to join the club. Took me literally 10 seconds to find the info on their website.

http://www.******.com/AtlantaConservationClub/news/index.cfm?cat=593279

1. Shoot or Work 2 Matches/Events - Before applying for membership prospective members arrange to participate in a work party, shoot in a match or participate in match setup: two ACC events. Once you have accomplished the two events send an email to - [email protected] or call 317-439-2216 and leave a message.

Pretty obvious from the posts that 1 old 0311-1 never met this requirement, and this is the one that he is trying to get out of. I have a hard time believing that ANYONE who is capable of shooting is NOT capable of participating in a match setup. Good grief, carry a clipboard or a roll of target pasters to the range!

2. Current Handgun Permit and Valid Driver's License - Applicants must have a valid Indiana handgun permit and a Valid Driver's License or government photo I.D. Please provide enlarged copies of both so it is legible for our records.

Does 1 old 0311-1 have an Indiana Handgun Permit? He stated that he was taking the class for a Utah permit when he heard about this club.

3. NRA Membership - Members must meet ONE of the following requirements:

a. Be an NRA member and renewed annually while an ACC Member.

b. Join the NRA by adding $35.00 to the membership application fee.

c. Pay an annual $50.00, Non-NRA Member Fee, with your membership dues.

Is 1 old 0311-1 an NRA member? If not, this where $50 worth of additional fees came from.

4. Pay Applicable Fees - New applications, accompanied by all fees, dues, and other charges as set by the Board, must be submitted to the Membership Director for processing.

Doesn't sound like he ever sent in an application to me from his posts.

5. Orientation & Safety Tests - New applicants must complete an orientation and pass both written and practical range safety tests. The online orientation is located here. Once you have completed the online orientation and quiz, you may contact the Director of Safety to setup your in-person safety check.

He then told me to get ahold of Randy again so he could do a safety check on me. I explained to him that I took and PASSED the Utah class 2 weeks earlier, THAT THE CLUB RECOGNIZES AS A SAFETY CHECK, that Randy put on, and I am a Honorably Discharged disabled Marine. I was told I STILL had to take it again.

I'm one of the club officers at my club authorized to give new member range safety checks. I have a hard time believing that an off-site, out of state CC class is recognized as a range safety check. They really go over club safety rules concerning use of the ranges, target systems, skeet machines, hours of operation, etc, for a bunch of people who will never go there? Where did you get the info that the Utah class satisfied the requirement?

6. 2013 Membership Fees -

a. Application Annual Dues $150 / $100 for Seniors 62 and older

b. NRA Membership Application Fee $35 / NON-NRA Fee $50

c. 2013 Associate Member Fee $35

I can't say where the $200 came from. From what has been posted, it appears that the additional fee was charged in lieu of Requirement #1.

Still sounds like to me that the Op caused all of his own problems. He didn't even come close to following the application procedure, but the volunteer club officers were going out of their way to work with him by waiving/modifying membership requirements. Sounds like he got upset because he still had to do a range safety orientation even though he had completed the Utah CC class, which he believed exempted him.

I find this interesting from 1 old 0311-1's viewpoint because I'm one of the 5 club officers at my club who processes new member applications and does range safety orientations. We deal with similar situations (people needing exceptions to club rules) a couple of times a year. NONE of the club officers or board members can bypass, modify, or make exemptions to the membership requirements.

 

[itsa pain]

1 old 0311-1 appears to have a huge amount of confusion on how to join the club. Took me literally 10 seconds to find the info on their website.

http://www.******.com/AtlantaConservationClub/news/index.cfm?cat=593279



Pretty obvious from the posts that 1 old 0311-1 never met this requirement, and this is the one that he is trying to get out of. I have a hard time believing that ANYONE who is capable of shooting is NOT capable of participating in a match setup. Good grief, carry a clipboard or a roll of target pasters to the range!



Does 1 old 0311-1 have an Indiana Handgun Permit? He stated that he was taking the class for a Utah permit when he heard about this club.



Is 1 old 0311-1 an NRA member? If not, this where $50 worth of additional fees came from.



Doesn't sound like he ever sent in an application to me from his posts.





I'm one of the club officers at my club authorized to give new member range safety checks. I have a hard time believing that an off-site, out of state CC class is recognized as a range safety check. They really go over club safety rules concerning use of the ranges, target systems, skeet machines, hours of operation, etc, for a bunch of people who will never go there? Where did you get the info that the Utah class satisfied the requirement?



I can't say where the $200 came from. From what has been posted, it appears that the additional fee was charged in lieu of Requirement #1.

Still sounds like to me that the Op caused all of his own problems. He didn't even come close to following the application procedure, but the volunteer club officers were going out of their way to work with him by waiving/modifying membership requirements. Sounds like he got upset because he still had to do a range safety orientation even though he had completed the Utah CC class, which he believed exempted him.

I find this interesting from 1 old 0311-1's viewpoint because I'm one of the 5 club officers at my club who processes new member applications and does range safety orientations. We deal with similar situations (people needing exceptions to club rules) a couple of times a year.

good post like all extra privileged minorities they are never satisfied and seem to love making trouble for everyone

 

[BSA1]

And in addition to 45 Auto comments I would add, sadly, he has used this forum to badmouth a gun club.

 

[Sam1911]

To be fair, he didn't volunteer their name. I asked him. That helped us establish their published practices and help him better understand what he's being told.

Sounds to me like two people at the club were (possibly) rude and stupid. And the club president has been helpful.

If the OP doesn't carry this to completion and actually apply to join based on the concessions granted him already, then I don't see that he's got much of a leg to stand on.

But the laws against discrimination are pretty tough, and not always fair, so he may get some traction.