Disabled discrimination at a range?

[X-JaVeN-X]

Did you miss the part where the club was trying to find a way to accommodate him, and he declined to let the process work itself out?

As a government employee, I deal with desk jockey bureaucrats overstepping their authority all the time. Just because some government employee jumps to conclusions so their agency can justify its existence by assessing some bogus fines doesn't mean any particular complaint has merit. And at this point, the complaint is one-sided. So, what other conclusion would you expect them to make?

Freedom of Association is one of the bulwarks of human freedom, and is clearly protected by the First Amendment. Why are so many 2A supporters so willing to dismiss the tenets of the 1st Amendment?

Yea I noticed they took concern over his situation AFTER broken laws were mentioned. They're only offering assitance now because they're trying to cover their own butts...well...that's a day late and a dollar short if you ask me. Before legality came into play...they couldn't care less about getting in contact with him. That's exactly my point...file a suit and bring all these practices to light and let the public develop their own personal opinion. I for one, just knowing the little that I have seen here, would never involve myself with that club or any with similar tools on the board.

 

[Cosmoline]

but I think coercion is still illegal

Not sure what you're talking about. He's free to embarrass them, picket them, give them bad google reviews and insult them over this. It isn't illegal to complain about a business. Nor is illegal to try to get them to change their ways. Though in this case it might be a better idea to just take the money elsewhere.

Personally I'm glad I don't live in a state where the shooting clubs are akin to country clubs with lengthy bylaws and in-fighting. Here they are for, you know, shooting.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Forgot to mention. The club president called me trying to smooth things over. He said " I CAN'T FIRE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE VOLUNTEERS" 4-5 TIMES. I finally cooled down and said I would bury the hatchet. He then told me I STILL had to pass the board vote with Dumb and Dumber representing 40% of the vote. I declined. The papers from the DOJ arrived today and i will fill them out shortly.

If anything is recovered 100% will go to the Wounded Worrier Project.

Don't bother with the DOJ papers yet, as you have not yet been "denied" anything, and you have nothing to "recover".

You need to follow through with the gun clubs procedures until they fail. THEN you have a case (perhaps), but not before.

 

[BBQJOE]

I may be wrong here, but this is a private club, right?
If so, I'm inclined to think they can deny anyone entry, and really shouldn't have to provide a reason.
Even if a like minded person wanted to join my club, and we got off to a bad start, or I just didn't like the person, I shouldn't have to do anything.
It's my club, and I'll do what I want.
If my members don't like it, they can leave too. It's my club.
No one has a "right" to join it.

 

[kyletx1911]

Dear 0311,
You're too honorable and noble to associate with that wretched club.
I can guarantee you that there are a plethora of reputable clubs that would be truly honored to have you as a member.

this and keep fighting!!!

 

[Miami_JBT]

...Snip...

I am a Caucasian and have never experienced discrimination before but when it comes, man there ain't mistaken it. You look at things in a new light when it hits you.

As hispanic born of Cuban Parents in Miami who then enlisted in the Army and became a cop. Yeah, I have... it sucks. I hate to say this... but now you know how it feels. I have dealt with it for my whole life. I'm not saying in anyways that you have mistreated others. Please don't take it that way. Just take this as a learning example of what's out there.

I hope and pray that you get them bent over a rail and run 'em out of town hard. This sucks for them to do this! I seriously hope brother that you get to enjoy a quality range and our freedoms that we've fought so very hard for. Take them to task with the ADA and contact your State Reps and Fed Reps along with the NRA-ILA. Make this a public issue and drag them into the spotlight of public opinion.

 

[1 old 0311-1]

Hi BBQ,

You are CORRECT. A private club can deny membership to ANYONE......however. It is NOT legal to have different rules for different people. THAT is against the law. As in charging a over 62 year old $200, instead of $100, refusing to answer calls, or e-mails, and constantly changing what is a safety test and what isn't. THIS from the board Safety Director.

Think 1950 in the south. Yes Blacks COULD vote if they met criteria whites didn't have to meet, and they were never able to meet them. As a Caucasian I had never experienced this before but I am sure Black members here can tell you that when discrimination jumps up and bites you, you REALLY know it.

I didn't get into this looking for problems. I just want to take one of my .22's out every week to punch paper. I believe it was perceived that I would be limping along the firing line with my cane. Next time I volunteer to serve my Country I will make it a point to tell them I WILL go to war but NOT if it could upsets some low level stuffed shirt down the line. I can assure you I didn't choose to be reliant on a cane at times.

I didn't ask for anything special to join but I also didn't think I would be blindsided.

 

[BullfrogKen]

So, you're sticking to the line that they just don't want handicapped people at this club, are you? That they hate handicapped people just as much as the Clan hated blacks.


The one-sided story we heard you tell has the President trying to work with you to find a way of granting you access even though you can't meet the requirements for membership - which includes participation of some type at it's matches.


You're going to stick with this discrimination line and try to ruin the club for those members there?

I'm speechless.

 

[1 old 0311-1]

Hi Ken,

I am not trying to "RUIN THE CLUB" for anyone, I TRIED to join. Weather the club is "RUINED" will be up to the DOJ attorneys once they see BOTH sides of the story and determine if they need to prosecute. IF they did nothing wrong that's as far as it will go. I am a little confused as to why you are afraid of the FACTS seeing the light of day and the truth coming out.

 

[lpsharp88]

So, you're sticking to the line that they just don't want handicapped people at this club, are you? That they hate handicapped people just as much as the Clan hated blacks.


The one-sided story we heard you tell has the President trying to work with you to find a way of granting you access even though you can't meet the requirements for membership - which includes participation of some type at it's matches.


You're going to stick with this discrimination line and try to ruin the club for those members there?

I'm speechless.

I think the issue at hand is that the president was only being accommodating AFTER the fact. The OP can meet the requirements, as long as he shoots OR works events (yes I checked the website). If the powers at be would have given him a fair shake, then denied him membership, this would be a whole different story

 

[Deltaboy1984]

The club should run OFF the 2 volunteers who kicked this Hornets nest and get a membership card and such to this man post haste. I am ashamed to hear any club treating a disabled vet like what I heard over these past 4 pages.

 

[BBQJOE]

Again, if this is a private club, and let's just say all the requirements are able to be met, there is still nothing that says they have to accept someone as a member.
It is their club.
You are fighting a stupid battle 1 old 0311-1.
They have obviously talked about you to other members of the board. Do you really think if you do get in, that you will get any respect from them? Will it be any fun to go to a club where you know certain board members do not want you there?
Give it up.
Go find a club, as other members have pointed out, that would be happy to have you as a member.

Sometimes a person can't see from the outside in, when they're caught on the inside looking out.

I mean no offense, but I can pretty much guarantee you would have no fun there.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

And just like that, you demonstrated discrimination. How can he not "qualify" until tested for such qualification? What are the qualifications? Walking on your hands or practicing safe gun handling and targeting ability? If the tests are fair and passed, that's all that should be required. If the tests are purposefully ridiculous in order to keep out less desirables, nail them to the wall - as a group. That "group" elected those in charge and holding everybody accountable might make them take a step back.

"Membership is $100 plus you must shoot at one of their events. I explained that being a disabled vet with a cane I really can't compete competitively."

In an twist on the old Groucho Marx quote: "I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER". I've always figured that I didn't want to be a member of any club that didn't want me as a member.

Good luck to you Marine but after all is said and done, will you really join if it comes to that or are you just proving a point.

 

[itsa pain]

1 old if the legal action fails from all the trouble you caused I hope they make you pay the legal costs

 

[BullfrogKen]

Hi Ken,

I am not trying to "RUIN THE CLUB" for anyone, I TRIED to join. Weather the club is "RUINED" will be up to the DOJ attorneys once they see BOTH sides of the story and determine if they need to prosecute. IF they did nothing wrong that's as far as it will go. I am a little confused as to why you are afraid of the FACTS seeing the light of day and the truth coming out.

Nonsense.

I see where you asked about joining. Until you submit an application you haven't actually tried to join anything. Hell you even decided not to bother before you submitted your application.


I have a club not far from me who only wants a certain kind of competitive shooter as a member. If you don't shoot their events, they're not interested in you as a member. They spent considerable money building a range suitable for that style of competition, and unless a prospective member wants to join to further that competition, they're not going to vote him in. It's a matter of keeping their club on mission.

And they have an absolute right to do that. They're not interested in people who want a casual place to shoot. They want a certain segment of the shooting population as members, and they don't want people with different ideas about what a gun club ought to be as voting members.


I'm seeing that they have a different idea about who they want as members of their club than you.

You want a place where you can casually shoot for personal recreation.

They want a place to hold competitions for dedicated shooters. It's pretty damn apparent in their By-Laws as a condition for membership.

Yet, with all that in mind, the President called you to try to find an acceptable middle ground to admit you entry into the membership. You have rejected that accomodation.


You asked -

Am I being picky or being a victim of Discrimination?

I think you are being picky. They have a mission that you don't have an interest in.

You interpretted that as discrimination because you use a cane for mobility. They're not looking for recreational shooters for members. Their club's mission seems to be the promotion of competitive shooting events, and you don't share that interest.

You see it your way.

They see it theirs. Yet you have a President making an accomodation for you.

And you're bitching about it.



Moreso, you're about to sick a very unfriendly, anti-second amendment Justice Department on a gun club in Indiana because two Board Members didn't treat you nicely.

I'm no longer speechless.


I'm sickened.

 

[BBQJOE]

I'd pay 5 bucks to hear Randy's side of the story.

I've had to take many classes and courses in my lifetime. Some were easier than others, and sometimes a lot of that had to do with others in the room.

Please, as Ken said, don't call the wrong people in to right a situation to your liking. They don't belong there, and it appears neither do you.

Go find a field, or a club that you would be happy at.

 

[tarosean]

I am a little confused as to why you are afraid of the FACTS

No offense intended, but we only have one side of the story...

As in charging a over 62 year old $200, instead of $100

You have yet to answer the question for others. Are you a NRA member?

It seems that they charge 25.00 for their events that you stated you could not compete in. 25.00 each, two required for membership = 50.00
Non NRA = 50.00 if you choose for them to submit the application.

That could be the extra 100.00 figure that they came up with.

ETA: If you are a NRA member then I have no clue how they came up with the extra fee

 

[Armedleprechaun]

I'm glad you called the Americans with Disabilities people and got clarification, that clearly put things in your favor. With that being said, I'm not sure I'd want to give this range my money after all of this, it seems like a pretty shady establishment

This! I'm in a wheelchair and would not give them my business! I'd be telling all my buddies to avoid them like the plague. Thank you for your service sir!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I think the issue at hand is that the president was only being accommodating AFTER the fact. The OP can meet the requirements, as long as he shoots OR works events (yes I checked the website). If the powers at be would have given him a fair shake, then denied him membership, this would be a whole different story

Not really.

The "after the fact" part doesn't really mean anything. What counts is that efforts were made to redress the situation and that there is an apparent willingness to continue doing so.

If this should go to court and this comes out, then very likely the judge would want to know why this process hadn't been allowed to continue to its conclusion before going to court.

Once that process is completed or once it gets to the point where it cannot be continued by the person seeking membership, THEN he has a legitimate complaint.

 

[itsa pain]

Nonsense.

I see where you asked about joining. Until you submit an application you haven't actually tried to join anything. Hell you even decided not to bother before you submitted your application.


I have a club not far from me who only wants a certain kind of competitive shooter as a member. If you don't shoot their events, they're not interested in you as a member. They spent considerable money building a range suitable for that style of competition, and unless a prospective member wants to join to further that competition, they're not going to vote him in. It's a matter of keeping their club on mission.

And they have an absolute right to do that. They're not interested in people who want a casual place to shoot. They want a certain segment of the shooting population as members, and they don't want people with different ideas about what a gun club ought to be as voting members.


I'm seeing that they have a different idea about who they want as members of their club than you.

You want a place where you can casually shoot for personal recreation.

They want a place to hold competitions for dedicated shooters. It's pretty damn apparent in their By-Laws as a condition for membership.

Yet, with all that in mind, the President called you to try to find an acceptable middle ground to admit you entry into the membership. You have rejected that accomodation.


You asked -



I think you are being picky. They have a mission that you don't have an interest in.

You interpretted that as discrimination because you use a cane for mobility. They're not looking for recreational shooters for members. Their club's mission seems to be the promotion of competitive shooting events, and you don't share that interest.

You see it your way.

They see it theirs. Yet you have a President making an accomodation for you.

And you're bitching about it.



Moreso, you're about to sick a very unfriendly, anti-second amendment Justice Department on a gun club in Indiana because two Board Members didn't treat you nicely.

I'm no longer speechless.


I'm sickened.

you are right ken the guys supporters here are using every commie lib organization to go after the range. they are the same people that want to take guns away

 

[1 old 0311-1]

Hi Ken,

So now it is no longer a matter of letting the facts speak for themselves, now you are upset with the mediator, the DOJ? Sorry pal that is who handles
these issues. Don't know where you are from but in this Country there are LAWS, and DISCRIMINATION is a Federal violation of one, the DOJ is paid to ENFORCE those laws.

As it is with shoplifters, speeders, and people who cheat on their wives I would bet this isn't the first time Dumb and Dumber let their prejudices keep someone out of their club. You obviously approve of those actions. That's fine. People like me defended your right to choose, but civilized society also gets a say in this. And they will get the last word.

 

[itsa pain]

This! I'm in a wheelchair and would not give them my business! I'd be telling all my buddies to avoid them like the plague. Thank you for your service sir!

and I would avoid people like you

 

[BullfrogKen]

If you think Eric Holder's Justice Department is at all interested in either truth or a fair application of justice, you're wrong. This Administration is very anti-gun, and you're going to give them the chance to go bankrupt a club.

What you are doing is giving this Administration a chance to go bully a gun club.


Again, you see this through the eyes you chose to look at the situation through, and you are convinced the reason you're finding it hard to join is because of some discrimination based upon your handicap.

I'm seeing it as you trying to join their club without following their membership application process. Here's their pre-condition for membership:

1. Shoot or Work 2 Matches/Events - Before applying for membership prospective members arrange to participate in a work party, shoot in a match or participate in match setup: two ACC events. Once you have accomplished the two events send an email to - [email protected] or call 317-439-2216 and leave a message.​

Did you do this?

Are you an NRA member? These could easily explain your extra fees.

You're intentionally avoiding these questions. But at some point you'll need to answer them to someone.


Rather than work with a club President who's trying to work with you, you've decided to go use the federal government as a weapon against a couple guys who pissed you off.

How petty.

 

[groundsclown]

1 old
You're really coming across as someone thats pissed off at the world for their misfortune. You seem to think the world or society should bend its rules to suit you...sorry pal but entitlement at a private range doesnt fly with me. They owe you nothing.

Actually this thread smells of a troll from the OP but thats just me.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

So, you're sticking to the line that they just don't want handicapped people at this club, are you? That they hate handicapped people just as much as the Clan hated blacks.


The one-sided story we heard you tell has the President trying to work with you to find a way of granting you access even though you can't meet the requirements for membership - which includes participation of some type at it's matches.


You're going to stick with this discrimination line and try to ruin the club for those members there?

I'm speechless.

Just curious as to your physical health. Can you open doors without problems, are bathrooms easy for you to use, can you move easily from point A to Point B over verious type of grounds. I ask as I'm also a disabled shooter (Army). The good thing about the shooting sports is as my physical abilities decline I can still participate. While I cannot run and gun anymore I can still shoot Trap as ATA allows one to sit and I can shoot bench rest rifle matches. The problem occurs when clubs refuse to make the accommodations that would allow handicapped shooters to participate. This is discrimination plain and simple.