Discussion: What to Do after a Self Defense Encounter

[Sam1911]

I really think most people would be better off not saying anything at all.

You absolutely may be right.

Consider this, though, and see if I'm making sense: Here we study strategies and tactics, skills and mindset, through which we attempt to elevate our responses above those basic levels attained by "most people" or even "gun-owners" in general. We work, think, and practice to give ourselves a more complete, more competent, and hopefully more universally successful counter-action in the event of a violent confrontation.

I would consider this discussion a direct continuation of that effort. Yes, some folks will be successful fending off an attacker if they just draw and point a gun. But we don't practice for that. We practice having to move, shoot, take cover, reload, shoot from a retention position, even shoot in a close grapple with an attacker right on us, etc. A more complete and effective set of skills to improve the success of our defense.

Some people will be exonerated of wrong-doing if they simply shut up and let whatever evidence the police find on the scene (or whatever stories they are told by others) exonerate or condemn them. We practice a more complete, effective, direct, and proactive response to the questions of responding LEOs, calculated to improve the success of our defense.

Just like "tool-set < skill-set < mind-set" works for what happens before a shooting as well as once the bullets start flying, it works after a shooting as well.

 

[mljdeckard]

Sure. It's just that I have been professionally exposed to interrogators, and when a subject thinks they are being clever, they are usually a few steps behind, that's all.

 

[StumpBender]

self defense encounter

My advice it to check out this site. www.usconcealedcarry.com I am a member, I also have the defense shield. They will send you a card to either read when the LEO's arrive, or hand them the card to read, seeing as you will, like LEO's in the same situation, be shaken up After the event.

 

[JustinJ]

I believe the key is to avoid details, ecspecially of one's own actions. I think it best to not say much about one's own actions beyond "i had no choice but to fire to protect my life" or even just "i was forced to protect myself from a deadly threat". Your perception of such things may be different than the evidence presents and being wrong could appear as lying. That in addition to a general description of how you were attacked and anything that contributes to how said attack was potentially a threat to your life. Certainly avoid quantitative details about how far the attacker was when you fired, how many rounds, etc. The problem with speaking is that you can not take back the wrong thing said but can always add more later although some things are more benefitial to your side immediately after.

Requesting to file a complaint seems to be a good idea as well.

Another option i've heard before is to be on the phone with your lawyer while speaking to the police although i don't know how practical this may be.

 

[StumpBender]

Call 911- "I was afraid for my life, and was forced to defend myself. Please send an ambulance right away."

(When the Police arrive)
1.He attacked Me.
2.I'll sign a complaint.
3.There's the evidence.
4.I need to talk to My lawyer, I do not consent to any search.

The back of the card is longer, it's to hand to the LEO's, instead of talking (you'll be shaken up) but basically the same thing as above.

I am not paid, or compensated in any way, to promote the org. USCCA, I just think that with the pro-2A Lawyer referral list, as well as the various grant $$$ protection, all who carry, should consider what happens "after" ...your life will change forever.

 

[hatt]

And it is worth noting that several of the problems that would later cause trouble for Mr. Hickey were a result of his decision to follow the "Don't say anything" advice so often given. As a result of hs silence, his attackers got to frame the debate and the investigators weren't aware of some of the exculpatory evidence. Everybody who carries a gun should read that article - it has a tremendous amount of valuable info.

Or him not talking could have also resulted in him not spending decades in jail. It's clear from the case you had incompetent police investigating the incident and activist prosecutors. If he had uttered one inconsistent statement he would have likely been in bad shape seeing how a jury hung, twice, with him having a consistent story, alined with the evidence, while the other side had serious problems.

 

[230therapy]

Manage your witnesses. Never tell them to lie. All you do is simply point out facts. The idea is to reinforce in their minds that you were the victim of an attack.

"Did you see him try to shoot me?" (while pointing at the bullet hole in something).

"Did you see him pull the gun out and try to sneak up on me?"

"Did you hear him say 'Your money or your life?' Did you see him pull that knife and put it to my throat?"

Stuff like that. Again, the point is to not mislead them to a false conclusion in your favor but to make sure their statements reflect what happened to you. You can get into some serious legal trouble if you attempt to mislead them into a false conclusion, so make sure you point out only facts.

 

[Bobson]

1. Write yourself a letter now that states (and documents) any training or certifications with firearms you hold. Leave the sealed letter in your safe. Prior knowledge is great evidence and admissable in court.

I'm confused about the purpose of this. Prior knowledge of what? How to use a firearm?

And if so, how is that knowledge beneficial to a self-defense defense in court??

There's a lot going on in this thread that has me pretty perturbed, but I'll hold my fingers at bay for now.

 

[alsaqr]

Do not talk to the news media: Nada.

 

[Frank Ettin]

1. Write yourself a letter now that states (and documents) any training or certifications with firearms you hold. Leave the sealed letter in your safe. Prior knowledge is great evidence and admissable in court.

I'm confused about the purpose of this. Prior knowledge of what? How to use a firearm?...

What you would be documenting would be your understanding of the issues related to the use of force in self defense and the bases for your conclusion that lethal force was justified in your circumstances.

That's a very superficial description of the use of such documentation. To understand the detail, I recommend taking a course from Massad Ayoob. He'll be teaching his introductory course, MAG-40, in Phoenix 7 -11 November.

 

[Bobson]

What you would be documenting would be your understanding of the issues related to the use of force in self defense and the bases for your conclusion that lethal force was justified in your circumstances.

That's a very superficial description of the use of such documentation. To understand the detail, I recommend taking a course from Massad Ayoob. He'll be teaching his introductory course, MAG-40, in Phoenix 7 -11 November.

Interesting. Is Mr. Ayoob's course an example of this type of training/documentation, or is it more of an explanation of how to properly document training once it's completed?

Assuming Mr. Ayoob's course isn't an example of the training one would ideally have documented and put away in a safe, can you give me an example of this type of training/documentation available to the Average Joe?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Bobson: Is Mr. Ayoob's course an example of this type of training/documentation,

Yes

or is it more of an explanation of how to properly document training once it's completed?

The explanation is provided at the beginning of the course.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I also highly recommend attending one of Ayoob's courses

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 9mmepiphany: I also highly recommend attending one of Ayoob's courses.

So do I.

Some may look at the fee and the travel and lodging costs, think "that would would be nice to do someday if...", and conclude that the cost is too high.

Let me opine that the value should not be underestimated, and the cost should be put in perspective. I think most people will benefit far more from the course than from purchasing additional firearm that one has been thinking of adding to the collection.

I attended MAG-20 in Memphis this summer. I had already read just about every book that Mas had ever written; I had already read and carefully digested just about every related post on THR from Bartholomew Roberts, fiddletown, and the entire THR staff going back to some time before I joined here about three years before; I had read just about every related post on The Firing Line by the staff members from that time frame, along with some of their books; and I had studied every article and white paper on the lawful use of deadly force by civilians that I had seen referenced here.

I still got my money's worth.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Let me opine that the value should not be underestimated, and the cost should be put in perspective. I think most people will benefit far more from the course than from purchasing additional firearm that one has been thinking of adding to the collection.

I can't agree with this more wholeheartedly.

There are very few instances where a shooter, who is intending to use their gun for defense, would not be served better than by taking training rather than buying another gun.

I was able to get the training in the legal ramifications of the use of deadly force for free when I took up my career in LE. For someone who doesn't have that option, a class from Ayoob is priceless

 

[Frank Ettin]

MAG-40 is Mas' first level defensive handgun class. It's a 40 hour class, usually scheduled over four days. Approximately half the time is spent on the range working on basic defensive handgun skills.

But what I've found is unique about this class is the remaining 20 or so hours is spent in the classroom dealing with the legal and social issues involved in the use of force in self defense. Topics covered include the general standards the circumstances, and your conduct, must satisfy to legally justify your intentional act of extreme violence against another human being, how to assess a situation to decide if lethal force is warranted and justified and how to plan to effectively deal with the legal aftermath of a defensive gun use. As far as I know, no other class available to private citizens deals with those issues as thoroughly as Mas'.

In May of 2010, I helped out with a MAG-40 Mas put on in Sierra Vista, Arizona. If you're interested, I wrote this article about the experience. (I also started this thread on another board about my October, 2008, trip to Phoenix to take Mas' LFI-I (now known as MAG-40).)

 

[sidheshooter]

I also highly recommend attending one of Ayoob's courses

So do I.

As do I.

When it comes to CCW in the US, I'd rather have a used 5-shot Taurus 85 snub from the early 90's and 40 hours of Ayoob class under my belt than any master blaster 1k and up pistol and no exposure to the material.

 

[bubba in ca]

Unless you are injured or going into shock or a cardio attack, I think saying nothing is a good way to get you in the suspicious character` category with the police with a complimenray ride downtown. There is a gunshot victem in your house bleeding on your rug. Inquiring minds want to know why.

If you are capable, state what the intruder DID to put you in fear of your life. Point out any evidence or witnesses. Then clam up because you are stressed out or whatever. We are talking 2 or 3 sentences.

If you cannot state what the perp did to put you in fear of your life, you are in deep dookey. Clam up and see your lawyer.

Be advised that witnesses may not have seen the same things you saw under the best of circumstances. If you live in a bad neighborhood, all witnesses may be hostile. Good luck.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bubba in ca: Unless you are injured or going into shock or a cardio attack, I think saying nothing is a good way to get you in the suspicious character` category with the police with a complimenray ride downtown.

Fiddletown has alluded to that.

While one has a right to remain silent, clamming up is what the bad guys do. Following a self defense incident, you'll want to act like one of the good guys.

If you are capable, state what the intruder DID to put you in fear of your life.

One caveat--one does not want to describe that act in any detail at all, to avoid having a discrepancy between that account, which could be inaccurate, and other evidence. "That person attacked me" is about all one should say..

Again from fiddletown:

...you don't want to say too much. You will most likely be rattled. You will also most likely be suffering from various well known stress induced distortions of perception.

Point out any evidence or witnesses. Then clam up because you are stressed out or whatever. We are talking 2 or 3 sentences.

Yep. Fiddletown explains it this way:

You ... won't want the investigating officers to miss any evidence or possible witnesses. What if the responding officers miss your assailant's knife that you saw fall down the storm drain? What if they don't know about the guy you saw pick up your assailant's gun and walk off with it?

Be advised that witnesses may not have seen the same things you saw under the best of circumstances.

Very true, and a big issue.

That's one more reason to sign up for MAG-20, where that subject is covered in some detail.

One more time, we have a Sticky on the subject here.

Here's the short version:

Massad Ayoob recommends:

Saying something like, "That person (or those people) attacked me." You are thus immediately identifying yourself as the victim. It also helps get the investigation off on the right track.

Saying something like, "I will sign a complaint." You are thus immediately identifying the other guys(s) as the criminal(s).

Pointing out possible evidence, especially evidence that may not be immediate apparent. You don't want any such evidence to be missed.

Pointing out possible witnesses before they vanish.

Then saying something like, "I'm not going to say anything more right now.​

You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours, after I've talked with my lawyer."

 

[P5 Guy]

I don't know about you all but I'm sure I'd want a trip to the hospital, even if I suffered no injury from the attack. Chest pains would be a certitude.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I don't know about you all but I'm sure I'd want a trip to the hospital, even if I suffered no injury from the attack. Chest pains would be a certitude.

An extraordinarily bad idea (unless you actually do need medical attention).

Unless it's true, you would be lying. and lying will always be used against you. It establishes doubt as to your credibility. Once you are caught in a lie, you are a liar; and people, including people who you very much need to believe your story about needing to defend yourself, will doubt everything you say.

You may think you won't get caught, and maybe you won't. But that's a different question. And liars frequently get found out.



In addition, you have now called for an ambulance you really don't need. Depending on the availability of emergency medical services in your community, you have taken an ambulance out of service and perhaps delayed response to someone who really is gravely sick or injured and really needs one. 



You're also now using space and resources in an ER -- space and resources you really don't need. You may be thereby delaying care to someone who really is sick or injured. 

And are you going to file an insurance claim for emergency medical services, which you knew you really didn't need? That's insurance fraud and grand larceny.



So when all that is discovered, you now become a callous, lying monster wasting limited emergency medical resources so you can duck talking with police (when you merely have to invoke your right to remain silent) and delaying the availability of those services for people who may really need them. You also expect your medical insurance to pay for your little ruse, even though they have no responsibility to pay for unnecessary service used for the purpose of temporarily evading police questioning; and thus you are stealing from your medical insurance. 



But nonetheless you will expect the police, the DA, the grand jury and possibly a trial jury to believe your claim that you were an innocent victim forced by the criminal act of another to use violence as a last resort to save your life?
 Good luck.

Whatever else, don't lie (and don't run).

 

[1stmarine]

Excellent advice. If facts are there they must be gathered. I boils down to common sense. 99.9999% of cops are good people that want to keep the bad guy behind bars and the innocent free.
Thanks.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Unless it's true, you would be lying. and lying will always be used against you. It establishes doubt as to your credibility. Once you are caught in a lie, you are a liar; and people, including people who you very much need to believe your story about needing to defend yourself, will doubt everything you say.

This bears repeating, Do Not Lie...It Makes You A Liar

Once you are discovered in a lie, you will have a tough time, if any chance at all, of reestablishing your creditability...just look at Mark Fuhrman

 

[Shawn Dodson]

But what I've found is unique about this class is the remaining 20 or so hours is spent in the classroom dealing with the legal and social issues involved in the use of force in self defense. Topics covered include the general standards the circumstances, and your conduct, must satisfy to legally justify your intentional act of extreme violence against another human being, how to assess a situation to decide if lethal force is warranted and justified and how to plan to effectively deal with the legal aftermath of a defensive gun use. As far as I know, no other class available to private citizens deals with those issues as thoroughly as Mas'.

Are there any practical exercises where the student has the opportunity to apply this training in a stressful environment. For example, a role play force-on-force confrontation, in which immediately afterward the student "calls" 9-1-1 and reports the incident, and then interacts with responding "police officers" (in which students apply Ayoob's advice in a realistic and practical manner)?

Or do students merely sit passively in the classroom and be lectured at for 20 hours?

It's one thing to intellectually "know" what to do. It's quite another to actually "do" what you know.

 

[rbernie]

Are there any practical exercises where the student has the opportunity to apply this training in a stressful environment. For example, a role play force-on-force confrontation, in which immediately afterward the student "calls" 9-1-1 and reports the incident, and then interacts with responding "police officers" (in which students apply Ayoob's advice in a realistic and practical manner)?

Or do students merely sit passively in the classroom and be lectured at for 20 hours?

It's one thing to intellectually "know" what to do. It's quite another to actually "do" what you know.

To be fair, let's ask the question a little differently:

Are there any 'Intro to Defensive Handgun' type of classes that contain FoF/confrontational scenario elements?

I wager that the answer is few-to-none, because that sort of content is probably not considered within the scope of the reasonable for a forty hour level-one course.