• You are using the old Black Responsive theme. We have installed a new dark theme for you, called UI.X. This will work better with the new upgrade of our software. You can select it at the bottom of any page.

"Dissipator" style recommendations for a defensive weapon

Status
Not open for further replies.

dobletap

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
8
After doing a lot of research for an AR style weapon for Home defense duty, I've finally settled for a Dissipator style AR. I understand that many people are not fond of this type of AR. To me this type of weapon makes a lot of sense. I would like to get it with the A2 upper and would like to keep it as simple as possible for reliability issues. No tacticool stuff, no electronic sights, VGs, rails, nothing, well the only additions would be a light source and trijicon night sights. Trying to keep it as reliable as possible my questions to all of you are the following:

1) Should I buy a complete rifle from a major manufacturer?
2) Get a complete upper and lower and just "pin" them together?
3) Get a rifle kit and assemble it?

On question number 3, I must add that I've never assembled an AR and don't have an idea on how difficult they are to assemble. How much money do you spend on tools? Is it worth it in the end?

Thanks ya'll!
 
arizona98tj said:
I'm not familiar with the "Dissipator" style AR. What makes it different than any other AR-15?
Not sure where the name came from, but it's a 16" barreled upper with a rifle length handguard, which sets the front sight at the same place it would be on an AR rifle.
dissipator.jpg

Some have rifle length gas systems, some have carbine length.
 
I never understood a rifle-length FSB (which has no gas port) with a carbine-length trimmed gas block under the handguards. It would make more sense to build something with a mid or rifle-length gas system and keep the FSB where it is. I had a Bushmaster dissipator long ago and I eventually sold it (unrelated reasoning). If you can find one with a true rifle-length gas system, that would be the way to go.

I'd get a complete rifle or an upper. Uppers and lowers that are mil-spec will fit together fine most of the time. I don't think I've heard of problems arising from this unless they were far from mil-spec. Most of the critical guts are in the upper.
 
Hey- I have one of these from CMMG- I never knew about the "Dissipator" name.
Stake the set screws in your gas block, mine came loose after a few hundred rounds.

Other than that, mine has been flawless. I got the complete upper, and picked up an LMT bolt shortly after. I keep my stock bolt as a spare.

The lower is easy to put together, the upper is a little difficult if you dont have the tools.
 
Not sure where the name came from, but it's a 16" barreled upper with a rifle length handguard, which sets the front sight at the same place it would be on an AR rifle.

Which also means the front sight relative to the flash hider is in the right spot to mount a bayonet. Most folks get them for the longer sight radius while still keeping the shorter OAL.

I think building one is worth it for the experience alone. A kit with the complete upper is easiest and requires no special tools although a set of Lyman roll pin punches ~$12 and the ~$1.00 Model One sales front detent pin tool is money well spent. You'll need the barrel wrench tool and a torque wrench to properly assemble an upper.

Google will find you a lot of good how-to websites with photos, I suspect youTube has a video or three showing how.
 
home defense with a .223?? ever fired a rifle indoors without hearing protection?
a pistol is a better choice with a light rail so you dont shoot the wife or kids in the dark

a .223 is great for shooting prairie dogs not people

ar15 is a very easy gun to build from parts i built 2
the upper you will have to headspace before you shoot it
you dont save very much if build it
you dont really need tools for the lower the barrel you will
most quality uppers and lowers will mate well and wont wobble much
id just buy the complete dpms if i wanted it
 
I bought a 7.62x39 Dissipator barrel from Model1Sales recently and bolted together my own Dissy flat top upper (using C Products magazines and a DPMS bolt). It runs like a top on all sorts of steel-cased ammo, and I'm quite pleased with it. I currently use a detachable carry handle for the rear sight, but I'm replacing it with Daniel Defense A1.5 rear sight assembly (on order).

If you're mechanically inclined, assembling your own isn't hard and the tools cost less than $75 (receiver block and multi-wrench) assuming that you already have a bench and bench vice. I vastly prefer to build my own, but that's because I enjoy setting it up with exactly the parts that I want. On the other hand, buying a complete upper probably means that you also get a warranty, which isn't a bad trade-off.

If you want a project - build it. If you want a shooter than you can use as a range/training tool above all else, then buy a complete upper or a complete rifle and shoot the snot outta it.

I never understood a rifle-length FSB (which has no gas port) with a carbine-length trimmed gas block under the handguards.
For 223/5.56, I would agree. For 7.62x39, I prefer a carbine-length gas system since port pressure on a middie or rifle length system can sometimes be a bit low to cycle the action when things aren't 'just so'.
 
Well, I guess I got all sorts of comments. I'm quite certain any type of firearm shot with no hearing protection indoors will definitely startle the whole family but God knows who will fire first. I actually started a thread about that same point in a handgun forum and even went as far as stating that maybe a fire suppressor would be a good idea, that was until a member of the forum who was also a lawyer, recommend against it. In the end I guess I'd rather wear a hearing aid than be dead.

Now, back to the OP. I've decided to stick to options 1 & 2. I'm not really looking for a plinker but for HD weapon. So I'm trying to get the most reliable firearm. With the only addition of a light. I also stated that night sights would be good in case the light went south in the middle of an engagement but some experienced members of another forum comment against it.
If I may, any opinions on a Aero Precision, Barnes Precision and Doublestar, complete lower receivers? I intend to use a collapsible stock.
Thanks guys.
 
home defense with a .223?? ever fired a rifle indoors without hearing protection?
a pistol is a better choice with a light rail so you dont shoot the wife or kids in the dark


I am guessing from your statement you have never fired a rifle indoors. I have. It is loud. So is a pistol. It won't make a difference.

As for the light, you can easily add a light to an AR.
 
If some hearing loss is the price to pay for saving the life of yourself and your family, I will gladly pay it.

Keep in mind that if you get a prosecutor who wants to nail you to the wall, no type of firearm will avoid his wrath. He'll call you a John Wayne for using a revolver, or a wannabe gangster for a semi-auto pistol. He'll call you a sniper for using a hunting rifle or a Columbine wannabe for grabbing a black rifle. He'll say you're using military ammo if you use FMJ. You're using ultra deadly hollowpoints that mushroom. Ballistic tip hunting rounds to blow up the organs of the victim, etc.
 
A few months ago I was in search on my first AR (I now have two and am considering a third currently...they are addicting) and I loved the dissipator concept. In the end, decided to go with a mid length because of the greater variety of lightweight barrel profiles available for them. Dissipator's can be heavy since they tend to have an almost HBAR barrel profile. A 16" Hbar and a 20" government profile both weight 2.5 lbs, but by going with a 14.5" lightweight mid length w/A2X flash hider, you can get down to ~1.8 lbs. Here is a link to a lightweight middy that is top quality, but wont break the bank http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-14lw.htm BCM is currently out of stock, but they should be have more by mid-late November.
 
Which also means the front sight relative to the flash hider is in the right spot to mount a bayonet. Most folks get them for the longer sight radius while still keeping the shorter OAL.
I believe that is only true of a midlength on a 16". A Dissipator 16" puts the FSB too far forward to mount a bayonet, but IMO a bayonet isn't all that practical on a real-world defensive carbine anyway.

I would strongly suggest getting a very good flash suppressor, either a Smith Vortex or an AAC Blackout; the muzzle flash from a 16" .223 indoors with no FS could be problematic for the shooter's vision in low light.

home defense with a .223?? ever fired a rifle indoors without hearing protection?
a pistol is a better choice with a light rail so you dont shoot the wife or kids in the dark

a .223 is great for shooting prairie dogs not people
I agree that a light is a necessity, regardless of what firearm you are using. But a 16" .223 isn't much different than any other defensive-grade firearm, and isn't nearly as loud as a .357 revolver.

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)

.410 Bore 28" barrel.....150dB
26" barrel...............150.25dB
18 _" barrel.............156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel......152.50dB
22" barrel...............154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel......151.50dB
26" barrel...............156.10dB
18 _" barrel.............161.50dB


Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel.....155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel...........................155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel.........................156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel.....................157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel...........................156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel.........................158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel.......................163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake...........170 dB


Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP...........155.0 dB
.32 LONG..........152.4 dB
.32 ACP...........153.5 dB
.380..............157.7 dB
9mm...............159.8 dB
.38 S&W...........153.5 dB
.38 Spl...........156.3 dB
.357 Magnum.......164.3 dB
.41 Magnum........163.2 dB
.44 Spl...........155.9 dB
.45 ACP...........157.0 dB
.45 COLT..........154.7 dB
 
I believe that is only true of a midlength on a 16". A Dissipator 16" puts the FSB too far forward to mount a bayonet, but IMO a bayonet isn't all that practical on a real-world defensive carbine anyway.

Oops, you are indeed correct, Its the mid length I was thinking about.

A rifle is not my first home defense choice in my house, but in a situation where it was, I could see a mounted bayonet as a first class aid to weapon retention in close quarters.

All guns are too loud to do any good for your hearing, although I think your table must be measured at the muzzle instead of behind the gun in shooting position as other wise the 26-30 db reduction of the best shooting muffs still wouldn't be enough as the threshold of pain is generally reported as ~120-140db (depending on how its measured and the population examined).

Standing along side (shoulder to shoulder) someone shooting an AR is less comfortable than me shooting it hearing wise, and my muffs are rated 30db (lots of things can reduce their net effectiveness).
 
Dissipator's Rock!

I believe the dissipator style of upper in a1 or a2 configiration is a great concept for a fixed sited rifle. From my research the mid-gas verses carbine or rifle will be more reliable. Please post pics here of the rifle with details once obtained.
 
I like mine in 7.62x25 Tok. That'd be a good one for HD too.
imgp4108s.jpg

ar762tok2s.jpg
 
To address the OP's original question: number 1. Much less likely to have problems, just buy from a quality manufacturer.

Now for a bunch of stuff you didn't directly ask about, but has been discussed.

If you're running a dissipater you gain one for sure advantage, a longer sight radius. Arguably you gain better reliability with a rifle length gas system, but this is debatable, and is also based on how well the rifle is put together.

The improved accuracy is a moot point if you're talking HD ranges. You can just as easily put an entire magazine into a 1" square at 15 yds with a carbine length sight system as you can with a rifle length system. I doubt many of us have homes where an interior shot will be longer then 15 yds. Now if you're planning on doing some distance shooting, then the longer sight radius can become useful.

The reliability of your rifle is largely a function of build quality. You can have an A2 spec 20" upper that barely runs or a 7.5" NFA that never hiccups. Buy or build quality and it'll run. In any of the standard barrel lengths (14.5, 16, 18, 20) you can run any of the other gas systems reliably. You might be cleaning/lubing more or less for your personal rifle, and you may wear springs out faster but it should run. If it doesn't send it back. There is no excuse these days for rifles that are unreliable.

I personally HIGHLY recommend putting an optic on your rifle. If you want something that is rugged and you can forget about, put an aimpoint Comp M4 on it and change the batteries once a year when you do your smoke detectors. Leave it on the rest of the time. You'll have an extra year or two of battery life in case you forget. You can become very fast and proficient with irons, I'm certainly not arguing that. However compared to a good optic, they are slow and hard to use. They do not tolerate shooting out of position well, and they require contrast to use. All black sights on a black target are hard to make out, even in daylight (hence why the 6 o'clock hold is popular in High Power shooting). An intruder wearing all black will present the same problem even if illuminated. Night sights help with this, but still require a lot of practice to use in unconventional positions. I personally like the EOTech, but you can't go wrong with Aimpoint, EOTech, Trijicon, Meprolights, or Insight Technologies. Along with this, if you go with a rifle with a fixed carrying handle since you only want irons, you'll be screwed if you want to add an optic later. If you must have a carrying hand, get a removable one. I recommend getting a standalone A1 style rear sight if possible. Daniel defense makes a good one. You're not going to be dialing in elevation as you shoot a know distance target table. The elevation knob is just one more thing to get bumped or turned that can affect your accuracy. Set it once and forget about it unless you change ammo types, or really bang up your rifle. Even then it'll probably still be pretty close.

If your putting a light on your rifle you're going to need either one that rail mounts, replaces your hand guards, or is attached to a VFG. Trying to hold your rifle and manipulate a light is a no go. Can it be done in an absolute emergency, yes but it sucks. Don't do it. The Surefire M500 is the top of the line option if you choose to replace the hand guards, it is expensive, heavy, but very reliable. The Surefire M900 is the top of the line option for a VFG/light integration. It is expensive, heavy, reliable, and puts your hand to low from the bore to be very stable (personal opinion). For rail mounted there are of course a ton of options. You can get little add on pieces of rail if you want to run standard hand guards, or you can go to a full rail system. It sounds like you're looking for something along the lines of the add on pieces. You might try a rail section that mount to the front sight base sight tower. This leaves the hand guards smooth and gets the light out towards the muzzle were you need it.

I'd say based on your original description get a M16A1 style rifle (20" light weight barrel with a fixed carrying handle and A1 sights) w/ titrium night sight inserts, use a front sight block rail insert and mount a good light. I personally would recommend going with a 16" flat top upper, with a light weight barrel, A1 style rear sight, titrium night sight inserts, non magnified optic of some sort, and a front sight block rail insert and a good light.

-Jenrick

As an aside on suppressor (please note this is all based on Texas law). There are multiple culpable mental states that are used in the penal code to describe the required mental state of the actor. Intentionally is the highest of these, meaning the actor acted with full knowledge of the consequences of his act and intended these consequences. Deadly force is normally defined as "capable of causing serious bodily injury or death." You can not shoot someone in the foot and say it was less then deadly force. If you intend to shoot someone and do so, you are intentionally using deadly force, period. A firearm is deadly force (by definition), the shooters choice of targets is immaterial under the penal code.

Intentionally using deadly force, intentionally pulling the trigger, means that you have to be able to justify the intent. Using a suppressor, hollow points, match trigger, etc. are meaningless. If you accidentally shot someone they might matter, but you've already said you intended to use deadly force, and did so. You go to court to articulate the intent of the shooting, "to stop a threat of serious bodily injury or death to myself or a third party". Note that this allowed usage of deadly force (chapter 9 of the penal code) matches up with the definition of deadly force. Basically if you feel, you or another, are about to be subjected to deadly force, you can respond in kind (there are other allowed usages, but they aren't relevant here). What gear you had on your weapon, what ammo you used, etc. is not relevant. In short putting a suppressor on your rifle isn't a big deal. Again note all of this is based on Texas law.
 
The "dissipater" barrel is a heavier barrel than a standard "Carbine" barrel. Is great for "dissipating heat. I have one and with a scope on flat-top mount, I can make "cloverleafs" at 100 yards with it. Not my choice for Close Quarters.

For that I have an M-4. For in home defense, a pistol is my choice. Should it ever come to having to move through my home in the dark I don't want the vulnerability or limitations of a long barrel when moving room to room.
 
I never understood a rifle-length FSB (which has no gas port) with a carbine-length trimmed gas block under the handguards. It would make more sense to build something with a mid or rifle-length gas system and keep the FSB where it is.
Rifle length gas on a 16" bbl has the opposite problem of carbine length gas: It's too close to the muzzle and often results in too low pressure. A carbine length gas tube on a 16" bbl may cycle harder than a mid-length, but things like heavier buffers (not always needed) can mitigate this. Sometimes rifle length gas on a 16" bbl may not cycle at all. IIRC 18" seems to be the practical minimum length for reliability with a rifle length gas system.
 
Dissapators from a reliable company are not a bad gun. Problem is not to many reliable companies make them right now. There is talk of BCM making one but I don't know of anyone else I would trust making them as a factory option. Building your own you have a lot more options of course.

Honestly given your intentions for the gun I would suggest the following.

14.5 inch Middy from DD or BCM with a fixed FH.
Magpul MOE handguards with a rail piece for attaching a light.
G2 or P6 LED light.
A quality RDS. If you want budget look at the Aimpoint Comp ML2

Iron sights are not ideal for Home defense. They are slower on target acquisition and engagement and give you tunnel vision. The last thing you want when defending your home is to miss the other guy coming from the side or miss one of your loved ones moving into the field of fire.

And no matter what gun you go with make sure you use the appropriate ammo. XM193, M855, or SS109 is NOT good for your HD gun.. Pick up some TAP.
 
Regarding the above post, if you don't trust Adco I don't know who you would trust. They have the best one in the market now IMO. I know because I researched them all and bought the Adco with no second thoughts or reservations.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top