Disturbing, very disturbing. De facto Registration in progress.

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I can't understand why people have such a hangup about the BATF checking out people who make frequent multiple purchases.
I can't understand how people who presumably know that gun control doesn't work could think that some gun control will work :confused:

But then neither can I understand why it is anybody's business what substances other people put in their own bodies... :p
 
I can't understand how people who presumably know that gun control doesn't work could think that some gun control will work

My whole point is that if we as gun owners have to jump through all of the hoops to legally buy a gun as a result of a few lowlifes who won't obey the laws, why not aggressivley pursue the lowlifes who: A) will not follow the restrictions placed on the rest of us, and B) who's actions will elad to more restrictive laws on the rest of us.


But then neither can I understand why it is anybody's business what substances other people put in their own bodies...

I can understand yet not condone illegal drug use. I can certainly understand why some people want them legalized- drug usage is mainly a victimless crime. When a convicted felon, one who has already proven to society that they will willfully break the law to harm others, wants to buy a gun with the likelyhood of wanting it to harm others, looking the other way or having a 'live and let live' attitude is counterproductive.
 
CB, I agree with most of what you said. The BATF has a job to do and that is to enforce firearm laws and investigate potential threats to society, especially in this age of terrorism and drugs. IF a red flag goes up then investigate. If you are not breaking the law, then you have nothing to worry about. If there is ever a time when the government decides to take away our right to bear arms all together, then we will fight ( what if Hillary and all the liberal homos get into office and the supreme court may be a possibility in the future). I get tired of gun owners who get pissed off that they can not own gernade launchers, RPGs, and machine guns and think their rights are being infringed.

It would be very suspicious if there was someone and a red flag would go up, if someone was buying 5 handguns everyweek for say a 6 month period. BATF invesitgates and finds out buyer is a rich guy who likes to have 120 Glocks and Sigs, then there is no problem. But if they find out that it is somebody straw buying for gangbangers and criminals or non registared aliens of middle east persuasion - then I am damn glad they investigsated and shut down the operation and brought justice.
 
If some scumbag buys five guns at a dealer and then goes out and sells them to his crack dealer firends, who kill innocent people in drive-bys -
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WHY SHOULD THE GUNS BE TRACKED ANYWHERE? There's no legitimate reason for the government to track guns everywhere. Registration leads to confiscation, and tracking guns from the company to ABC gun store to Sneaky Sam who bought them legally is de facto registration. Sure, you might stop the crack dealers from shooting people - maybe - but in the process you've created something that a few years back some very good men risked everything to avoid.

No registration. Never.
 
WHY SHOULD THE GUNS BE TRACKED ANYWHERE? There's no legitimate reason for the government to track guns everywhere. Registration leads to confiscation, and tracking guns from the company to ABC gun store to Sneaky Sam who bought them legally is de facto registration.

Why should we have to drive on the right side of the road or why should we be required to wear clothes when in public? These rules were in place before you or I came along and will be here long after you and I are gone. There's nothing you can do about it, so you might as well make the best of it.

The government already does what you fear. They do track every gun from the factory all the way to at least the first private citizen who buys it. Like it or not, this is in place for almost 40 years and is not going to go away. The whole reasoning given for CGA 68 was to reduce crime. Why not tell .gov to step up to the plate and do what they said they would do, instead of pretending a problem doesn't exist and if you close your eyes and cover your ears, the 4473 forms will somehow cease to exist?
 
When a convicted felon, one who has already proven to society that they will willfully break the law to harm others, wants to buy a gun with the likelyhood of wanting it to harm others, looking the other way or having a 'live and let live' attitude is counterproductive.

With so many felonies on the books that are purely malum prohibitum, not malum in se, the "convicted felon is a danger to society" argument has become VERY weak.
 
Then why bother punishing or convicting felons at all? :rolleyes:

Maybe we should all join hands and sing "we are the world" and all of the bad things in the world will go away and all of the bad people will stop being bad.
 
I can't understand how people who presumably know that gun control doesn't work could think that some gun control will work

So let's do away with all gun laws. Heck, let's do away with all laws period. Think of the money saved on courts and law enforcement.
Of course you'll have to hunker down 24/7 in your livingroom with an AK on your lap to keep out all the bad guys/have-nots but you're a tough guy and can handle it. ;)
 
Unless I'm completely mistaken, part of being licensed to sell guns means that you must not only keep records, but allow the BATF to inspect them at their request once a year if they so choose.

I don't have a FFL but I do have a C&R. It would do me little good to squack and holler if they asked to inspect my bound book when I entered into an agreement with the Federal agency that allows them to do so as condition of granting me the license.
You dont' require a license to do that which is your right to do. You have a right to make a living in the sale of items which people have a right to own. If your argument is that the Federal Government has the authority to supervise your profession, then show me in the Constitution where that authority was granted to it by the states. If you cannot, I would refer you to the Tenth Amendment.
 
You dont' require a license to do that which is your right to do. You have a right to make a living in the sale of items which people have a right to own. If your argument is that the Federal Government has the authority to supervise your profession, then show me in the Constitution where that authority was granted to it by the states. If you cannot, I would refer you to the Tenth Amendment.

And when can we count on buying the first production Real Hawkeye carbines chambered in 500 Magnum? Purchased via the internet and delivered by UPS direct to our door? ;)

You can sit there and mouth off all day long about "my right to do this or that" but until you get up and risk serious jail time you're just spouting off.
 
And when can we count on buying the first production Real Hawkeye carbines chambered in 500 Magnum? Purchased via the internet and delivered by UPS direct to our door?

You can sit there and mouth off all day long about "my right to do this or that" but until you get up and risk serious jail time you're just spouting off.
It is not necessarily the case that what is our right to do is without harmful consequences. We have allowed the slide towards totalitarianism to go too far without check. As a result of gradualism, and the passage of time, my assertions sound outrageous to you. Just because I do not choose to do something which will get me put in jail, doesn't mean that it is not my right to do it. The Jews of Kristallnacht had every right to operate their businesses in town without having their stores ransacked, and without themselves being beaten. They had every right to receive the assistance of the police in preventing it. The fact that they were victimized by their own government did not mean that they were acting beyond their rights to operate their businesses. Rights and abuses of government power are two separate issues. The abuse doesn't eliminate the right, and I am allowed to speak of my rights, clearly enshrined in the US Constitution, without necessarily acting on them. There is such a thing as prudence.
 
Then get out there and strike a blow for liberty. We'll begin raising funds for your legal defense. ;)
 
I've prosecuted one case where BATFE Agents participated. One involved a guy who was basically running a gun shop out of his garage. Now, before anyone gets out the flamethrowers here, the guy was "selling" the guns for meth, meth-making materials, etc. He was also modifying certain guns by shortening the barrels, etc. My favorite was fitting some stolen H&K full auto trigger groups to semi-auto rifles, thus creating convertible rifles. Anyways, we confiscated almost 400 firearms from the guy. Asked BATFE to do traces on every gun, to determine if any of the guns were stolen. Almost two and a half years latyer, and a year after the guy went to prison, I'm still getting some of the traces back. Maybe got 30% back so far. They never determined where the full auto triger groups came from, though I did with a few phone calls.

Anyone who fears BATFE can relax a bit. They are disorganized, understaffed, and far from the imminent threat many of us fear.
 
Then get out there and strike a blow for liberty. We'll begin raising funds for your legal defense.
I never said I was willing to become a martyr, especially since it will likely not improve the situation in general. I am content to simply state what our rights are, as enshrined in the US Constitution. I don't think we've quite reached the point yet in this country where this requires a legal defense fund. I might be wrong, however. There is, after all, the Patriot Act to consider. I might be accused of being a terrorist, resulting in my loss of Constitutional rights, in which case a lawyer would be no good anyway, as accused terrorists have no right of due process under the Patriot Act.
 
So let's do away with all gun laws.
Amen! :cool:

Heck, let's do away with all laws period.
Qualified amen. Let's do away with all laws against "crimes" that don't have a victim.


And comparing gun laws to "rules of the road" is just ridiculous. We drive on the "right" side (British drive on the "wrong side" ;) ) so that we both know which side to pass each other on. I drive on the left side of the road all the time, to avoid mud holes and other hazards. But I get over when I meet another vehicle - not because it's the law, because I don't want to have a wreck.
 
I don't plan on taking a side one way or the other on the way things are vs. the way things should be. In terms of the beginning of the thread on "registration" I can at least tell you how it works as far as paperwork goes as there seem to be some questions about it.

4473s are required by the BATFE to be kept in an orderly way, which is defined by them as being kept "in alphabetical (by name of transferee) or chronological (by date of transaction) order." I keep mine in alphabetical. For a firearms transfer the 4473 must be kept for 20 years (when I can throw them away) or until closing of the business, at which time they get sent to the BATFE in West Virginia.

Furthermore, "ATF officers may . . .enter the premises of any licenced dealer . . . for the purpose of examining or inspecting any record or document . . ."

So if the ATF showed up and asked me to please compile a list of frequent customers, I could probably legally turn them down (as far as I know I just have to give them access to the paperwork, not do their detective work for them), but it would only take them a few minutes (perhaps 15) to flip through the alphabetical listing and find out which last names show up more than others.

Also, (since this was brought up earlier) if you buy more than 2 handguns in a 5 day period I have to fill out a fun form in triplicate that says you did so, and I keep one copy, one goes to the BATFE, and one goes to the local Police.

The good news, if you believe the BATFE (feel free to bash that clause all you want), is that when we do a NICS check there is a law against them storing personal data for "Proceed" transfers, so every day the NICS database is supposedly wiped clean. This means that you are on record on paper in my file cabinet for buying the gun, but not on the FBI computer for buying a gun.
 
Forgive me, but I am unfamiliar with the legislation around operating as an FFL. What I'd like to know is, how does this affect regular joe/grimjaw?

Fact: as a regular joe, I have purchased five handguns (at least) over the last two months, using individual FFL's or large chain stores. I had to sign the 4473 every time and wait for the phone call. The serial numbers were recorded, my vitals taken down. Wouldn't F-Troop (wonderful nickname) already know that I'd bought the five over a small timespan, using a computer database of some sort?

I'm trying to think what they actually gain by collecting the information they could theoretically already have. Maybe they're cracking down on FFL's for some reason, justified or not.

I don't agree with heavy-handed tactics, but I also don't see what good it would do them. The same logic I hear applied to theft applies here. If F-Troop is going to do something illegal, they're going to do it no matter what resistance you put up (i.e. refusal to provide the paperwork as requested). If they were going to steal information they aren't supposed to track (waterhouse states that the NICS database is 'wiped clean' daily), seems like there's an easier way to do it than to send agents out into the field to collect paper copies of information and then enter than information by hand into a database for easy perusal later.

I'm not questioning the veracity of the Vernal45's story, just wondering at the futility of it.

jmm
 
Wouldn't F-Troop (wonderful nickname) already know that I'd bought the five over a small timespan, using a computer database of some sort?
No, the serial numbers are recorded on the 4473, but not communicated to NICS for the approval. All the dealer has to tell them is whether it's a long gun or handgun

The store I used to work at filed 4473s in chronological order - newest in the front. I don't know how the heck you could purge your files after 20 years (assuming you were in business that long) if they were in alphabetical order by name without a huge amount of effort.
 
Why should we have to drive on the right side of the road or why should we be required to wear clothes when in public?
Yeah, you're right, those are exactly the same thing as gun registration. :rolleyes:

They do track every gun from the factory all the way to at least the first private citizen who buys it.
No s---, Sherlock. I know damn well what they already do. You're arguing that it's a good thing because it might stop straw-man purchases. I'm arguing that it isn't. Ya see how that works?

Geez.
 
Minor Thread HiJack...

So...
If I go to my local gunstore and buy an AR-15, a pump shotgun with 18" barrel and a 1911 style pistol, along with 1000 rds of 5.56 NATO, 500 rds of 12 ga 4 shot and 1000 rds .45 ACP Ball all on the same day at the same hour and minute then I should expect a visit from the local LEO's and a gentleman from BATF? Afterall a multiple purchase form has to be filed with local CLEO and BATF in that case.

Of course there's a very legitimate reason I would do that since I would like to compete in local 3 gun competitions. But then there's no place on the form to state that is there?

So are the police and BATF gonna show up and question me just because I wanna shoot 3 gun? Can I tell 'em it's none of their business why I purchased all that stuff on the same day at the same store?

If so then this country's not goin' to hell - it's already there?
 
Werewolf, it only applies to handguns.

You can buy 10 shotguns from me at once and they just get recorded in my bound book and on the back of the 4473. Once you buy 2 handguns in a 5 day period then I have to fill out form 1140 "Report of Multiple Sale or other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers." Again, I'm not arguing how things should be, I'm just saying how they are.

Also, I've filled out this form several times. As far as I know (I've asked a couple of them) none of my customers has had anyone knocking on their door.
 
No s---, Sherlock. I know damn well what they already do. You're arguing that it's a good thing because it might stop straw-man purchases. I'm arguing that it isn't. Ya see how that wor

from this point forward, I'll just refrain from battling wits with an unarmed person.
 
It is obvious that quite a few folks on THR don't think the govt, LE, law-abiding citizens, or Mickey Mouse for that matter should make any attempt to prevent hardened criminals from obtaining firearms that will be used later in criminal enterprise.

I am one of those who think otherwise.
 
guys, what i think you're missing is that ATF (or any LEO) agents can ASK for anything they want. you, or your ffl friends, can play nice and say "ok, here you go. please don't get your jackboots out!". or you can say "no, piss off. that's illegal. you can't ask me for that", in which event, they will usually withdraw their request.

Bingo, we have a winner.
 
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