Do "safety modified" old model blackhawks still have 4 clicks?

[1KPerDay]

Some of the finest tactile pleasure in Gun-dom is pulling back the hammer on an old model. I'm not sure if I'm remembering right, but it felt like 4-5 clicks. Couldn't have been that many, right?

I had a Vaquero but sold it, partly because I missed those tasty clicks.

If an old model has been sent to ruger for the safety update, does it still make that music, or do they have the smooth 2 clicks like the new models?

Just curious... I'd love an old model in .45 Colt.

 

[heysox]

I have one of each and just went to the safe to check. Both have 3 distinct 'clicks'

 

[Cosmoline]

Three clicks, or should be. I don't think the modifications on the refit are extensive enough to change that.

The scary one was an old Italian replica that had TWO clicks and no bar, so it was either on full cock, half cock or the hammer was all the way through the hole

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The scary one was an old Italian replica that had TWO clicks and no bar, so it was either on full cock, half cock or the hammer was all the way through the hole

What's scary about that? If the gun is loaded, the hammer should be all the way through the hole -- on an empty chamber.

 

[Cosmoline]

What's scary about that? If the gun is loaded, the hammer should be all the way through the hole -- on an empty chamber.

I mean there's no quarter-cock safety notch for a margin of safety in case you counted wrong and there's a live round there. If you screw up you'll set the pin down directly on the primer. I like living dangerously, but not THAT dangerously.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I mean there's no quarter-cock safety notch for a margin of safety in case you counted wrong and there's a live round there.

You load one chamber, skip one, load the rest, then draw the hammer back and lower it on the empty chamber. How hard is it to count to one?

If you screw up you'll set the pin down directly on the primer.

First, what's your alternative? Using the half-cock?

Second, it's a revolver. You can see if the chamber is empty.

Third, the reason for the empty chamber is the possibility that a blow on the hammer will break the half-cock notch, the nose of the sear, or both. If you use half-cock on an empty chamber, you can still break those parts -- and even if it doesn't result in an ND, you still have broked a valuable revolver.

 

[Cosmoline]

First, what's your alternative? Using the half-cock?

The safety catch between half cock and fired.

 

[Jim March]

Errr..Cosmoline, love you man but, you've got this one wrong.

With a Colt SAA action or similar (Old Model unmodified Ruger included) the time-proven right answer is "all the way down on an empty". We've had since 1873 to sort this out. It is The Way.



My issue with this action type isn't so much "goofing up and putting the empty in the wrong place" - you can visually confirm at both the front and rear of the cylinder if you have to. My problem is, what happens once I have to cock it to use it, but end up not having to fire? Which happens a LOT - a cocked SA puts the fear of God into goblins like nothing else this side of a 12ga pumpgun. Now in order to holster it, you not only have to de-cock, you've got to fiddle with it with two hands to get the empty lined up back and under the hammer. Possibly while still in a fairly dicey situation.

Errr, no, not for me thanks. I like my transfer bar juuuust fine where it is on my New Vaq.

The other thing is, I think a single big "click" is more frightening than four. Most goblins don't know what four clicks even MEANS, but they damned well know what one is .

 

[.41Dave]

I converted exactly one (1) old model. It left with a glassy smooth action and came back feeling like it was full of sand and metal shavings. Never again will I blaspheme by converting an old model!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The safety catch between half cock and fired.

That's called the Loading Notch. It is there to hold the lockwork with the cylinder stop disengaged, so you can rotate the cylinder by hand to load and unload.

It is not a safety catch!

It is even more dangerous than the half-cock -- because it is no safer, but offers a greater hammer fall when it breaks.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's called the Loading Notch. It is there to hold the lockwork with the cylinder stop disengaged, so you can rotate the cylinder by hand to load and unload.

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the notch that holds the hammer just slightly back from the pin, to keep it from resting on and tapping against the pin and possibly damaging it (I'd REALLY hate to try to find a replacement). Otherwise you will be resting the hammer on the pin, which on my blackhawk is integral with the frame. The notch I'm talking about does NOT allow the cylinder to rotate. That's half cock. I'm not talking about half cock. Here's how it breaks down on my OM:

Position 1: Fully engaged with pin pushed forward
Position 2: One click back, with cylinder locked and pin spring at ease
Postion 3: Half cock, with cylinder free for unloading or loading
Position 4: Full cock

With a Colt SAA action or similar (Old Model unmodified Ruger included) the time-proven right answer is "all the way down on an empty". We've had since 1873 to sort this out. It is The Way.

SAA's have the pin on the hammer, the blackhawk (at least mine) has the pin on a spring in the frame. Are you saying the proper at rest position for the hammer is pressing down on that pin and spring? Because I thought it was Position 2, above. And if Position 2 is not a proper for anything, why is it there? Again I'm not talking about SAA's.

First, what's your alternative? Using the half-cock?

NO, the position just back from fully engaged. It was THIS position that got Ruger into so much trouble, since stupid people assumed they could load one under it, when in fact a good rap on the hammer would send it down to the pin. Ruger called it the "Safety Notch Position" as opposed to the half cock "Loading Notch Position." In hindsight the name was poorly chosen, as you will find extensive discussion of it in cases during the 1970's:

Sturm manufactured this model from 1953 to 1972. It was adapted from the 1873 Colt single-action revolver, and has been termed “emblematic of the western guns”. Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc. v. Bloyd, 586 S.W.2d 19, 20 (Ky.1979). The hammer on this model has four notches (clicks): full down (hammer resting against firing pin), safety notch, loading notch, and full back.

Smith v. Sturm, Ruger & Co., 695 P.2d 600.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the notch that holds the hammer just slightly back from the pin, to keep it from resting on and tapping against the pin and possibly damaging it

That's the half cock notch -- dangerous!!

Position 1: Fully engaged with pin pushed forward

In other words, hammer down on an empty chamber?

That's the only safe way to carry a traditional SAA.

Position 2: One click back, with cylinder locked and pin spring at ease

That's the half cock notch -- dangerous!!

Postion 3: Half cock, with cylinder free for unloading or loading

That's the loading notch -- even more dangerous!!

Position 4: Full cock

That's ready-to-shoot, not a carry option.

 

[Cosmoline]

Vern, what is the purpose of what you are calling the half cock and what I'm calling the safety notch? I'm really curious about this.

And why is it dangerous? Remember, nobody is suggesting a live round should be underneath so just put that thought out of your mind. Is there some danger in having the revolver hammer back one notch from the pin over an empty? It has been my understanding that the whole point of that notch was to allow for the hammer to be lowered without impinging a primer if a round is accidentally placed there. Thus the term safety notch. It was also my understanding that this notch was there to keep the pin from being pressed down by the mainspring.

That's the only safe way to carry a traditional SAA.

So we're crystal on this, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A SAA. I'm talking about a Ruger Blackhawk with no transfer bar and a pin in the frame. My concern is that the pin should not be kept pressed forward with its tiny spring under the pressure of the much more powerful coil spring of the hammer. There's also the issue of whether to ride the pin all the way down with finger on trigger.

Let me put it this way. When you've lined up your empty chamber and you're letting the hammer down--do you ride the hammer all the way down with the trigger pressed? I was always taught to let go of the trigger after the loading lock. By doing this it naturally catches on the final notch and your finger is off the trigger. Otherwise you have to squeeze the trigger all the way down, which strikes me as edgy.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, what is the purpose of what you are calling the half cock and what I'm calling the safety notch? I'm really curious about this.[/quote]

Traditional gunlocks -- including the Colt SAA and old-style Blackhawks -- had a "half cock notch" which was supposed to be a safety. In the case of SAAs and similar guns, the hammer spur is too exposed -- it can easily be struck a blow, and the leverage is such that the gun can be broken even by a light blow there.

The tumbler (which in these guns is the lower part of the hammer) has notches cut in it. The hammer is held back by the sear -- a chisel-shaped piece of metal which engages the notches. In the case of the full-cock notch, the face of the notch is vertical, so the sear can slip out under pressure.

In the case of the half-cock notch, the notch is undercut, so the sear cannot slip out, even if the trigger is pulled.

For the SAA and old Blackhawk, you need to be able to rotate the cylinder to load. But a revolver must keep the cylinder fully under control. There is, however one point in the cocking cycle when the cylinder stop is momentarily disengaged -- so there is another undercut notch on the tumbler. This notch, the loading notch, corresponds to that point in the cocking cycle when the cylinder stop is disengaged. Like the half cock notch, the loading notch is undercut. You cannot pull the trigger with the hammer in the loading notch.

And why is it dangerous? Remember, nobody is suggesting a live round should be underneath so just put that thought out of your mind. Is there some danger in having the revolver hammer back one notch from the pin over an empty?

If you carry the gun on half cock when loaded, you still run the risk of breaking the half cock notch or sear nose -- and you may not notice it. It doesn't take much of a blow on the hammer spur to do that. And that leaves you with a broken and dangerous gun -- because the broken sear can slip when you try to bring the gun to full cock.

 

[Cosmoline]

Thanks, that makes sense. But is there any danger to the pin of a blackhawk if you rest the hammer on it for extended periods? The thought of breaking it or wearing out the spring scares me more than than the thought of breaking the notch or sear nose. Looking around I can't find a replacement anywhere, and it appears Ruger may have purged the supply to force people to send their OM's in for an "upgrade" to the transfer bar system, which IIRC uses a free floating pin.

 

[Jim March]

Cosmoline: I'm assuming we're talking about an unconverted Old Model Ruger.

The answer is YES, you want the hammer fully down, firing pin fully depressed into the empty chamber.

Here's why: should the cylinder latch fail or jiggle and allow the cylinder to rotate, the depressed firing pin will add one more level of safety: in order for the cylinder to spin and put a live round under that hammer, the depressed firing pin will meet the outer rim of one of the live rounds either side - preventing it going fully into battery.

It's not a MAJOR extra safety factor but it is enough of a factor to follow the classic Colt protocol with the OM Ruger (or a New Model that has been rigged to remove the transfer bar, usually for fastdraw competition - see also various gunsmiths like Bob Munden and the MAJOR warnings they issue before doing such work).

As an example of this sort of thing: I have a weird little Freedom Arms minirevolver in 22Mag. It has a frame-mounted firing pin but no safety. It's possible to lower the hammer (and firing pin) down between two rounds and block it from going fully into battery, carrying it fully loaded (which means four rounds!) that way.

However, should the cylinder be spun hard somehow, being a rimfire it could be a bad scene indeed. So I don't carry it that way - I carry it three-up, hammer fully down on an empty. (When I do carry it, it's because I have a leather holster I made years ago that carries by 38snubbie in a standard FBI cant, and then carried the minirevolver crossdraw. In the same holster .)

Anyways. With a centerfire revolver, this issue isn't there - a sideways impact on the rim is no biggie no matter how hard it is. Therefore the firing pin fully "in" acts as one final safety preventing full battery in a five-up carry gun.

 

[Cosmoline]

So the frame mounted, spring mounted firing pin is designed to be kept depressed for months, years or decades at a time?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But is there any danger to the pin of a blackhawk if you rest the hammer on it for extended periods?

None whatsoever. The pin touches nothing, and there is no stress on it.

And the firing pin return spring is compressed -- but compression doesn't harm springs.

 

[Cosmoline]

Up to a point, yes. But if enough pressure is placed on any metal spring it will warp and flatten over time. A boxspring that's been used too long, for example. My concern is that the compression in this case is coming from a spring about twenty times larger. But if you've all done it with no ill effects I won't worry about it. I would feel safer if I had a spare.

The pin touches nothing, and there is no stress on it.

It's not floating like the new models, it's in the frame on a tiny spring. So if the hammer is pressing it to its maximum extension it must be pressing on the spring at least. Isn't that like a really fat man on a really tiny pogo stick?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But if enough pressure is placed on any metal spring it will warp and flatten over time. A boxspring that's been used too long, for example. My concern is that the compression in this case is coming from a spring about twenty times larger. But if you've all done it with no ill effects I won't worry about it.

One of my Blackhawks was made in 1976, so it's been in the uncocked mode for 31 years now. It's only cocked when I'm actually shooting it, and no problems so far.

 

[Kestrel]

Is the only safety concern with an old model Blackhawk, just the lack of a transfer bar?

I have an old model, but wouldn't want to have it converted to a transfer bar.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Is the only safety concern with an old model Blackhawk, just the lack of a transfer bar?

There have been minor changes in the Blackhawk over its history (such as the transition from "flat top" to the sight protector version) but as far as safety goes, the transfer bar is the only change.

I have an old model, but wouldn't want to have it converted to a transfer bar.

Just carry it hammer-down on an empty chamber and you'll be fine.

 

[Kestrel]

Thanks, Vern. That's what I thought.