Do Torque Values Matter? If Finger Tight Good Enough?

[twofewscrews]

So I recently reinstalled a scope on my B-22 and added a UTG 590 to my Maverick 88. My OCD kicked in and rather then go finger tight as I had previously done I decided to use my torque wrench and (attempt to) get everything to spec. Stock screws, rails, scope rings base and cap, everything. I found that the recommended torque values seemed way too high. The +/- torque value of my torque wrench is 2in/lb.

I started with the stock screws on my B-22. The manual recommends 20in/lb. I got to 15in/lb and stopped as the screws had returned to a little more than the position I normally finger tightened them to, that they were installed to from the factory, and the amount of resistance I encountered trying to go above 15in/lb felt like it would do more damage then good. I then moved on to the scope rings. I ended up setting the base 10in/lbs lower (recommended value of 30in/lb) and 5in/lb lower (recommended value of 15in/lb) on the caps. The caps value in particular bothered me as I was sure that setting it higher would damage the scope tube. The scope manufacturer recommended 15in/lbs but 10in/lbs felt like it was plenty.

I found the same thing on my 10/22. I ended up setting the stock screw at 15in/lb and the cap screws at 10in/lb instead of 15in/lb. I didn't torque the base as I switch between iron sights, red dot, and the scope at whim. Finger tight always seemed fine. I then moved on to torquing the rail I had switched out and found that 10in/lbs was tight enough even though 12in/lb was recommended. When I did the rail I realized I had under torqued the rail and that may have led to some of the flyers I was getting when using the scope.

I then moved on to the Maverick 88. UTG recommends going no tighter then 20in/lbs on the trigger group screw otherwise you will run into feeding issues. I found 15in/lb to be as tight as I wanted to go. Similarly they recommend 15in/lbs for attaching the shell holder to the side saddle but 10in/lb felt plenty tight.

After all this torquing I took the B-22 and 10/22 out to the range. My B-22 was shooting holes into holes. My B-22 performance was great, but as I'm sure your all aware that greatly depending on the ammo your using, weather conditions, and focus/technique. I used my red dot on the 10/22 and put 40 of 50 shots from standing at 50 yards into a 4in circle.

Have you guys had similar results/experiences? Ie the manufacturer recommended torque values seem to be too much and the firearms perform to your expectations without meeting the manufacturers recommended torque value. I also could see that as I'm shooting rimfire rifles, the amount of recoil being generated is such that higher torque values are not needed, and if I was shooting centerfire rifles I would need to go up to higher torque values.
Is is possible the recommended torque values limits (do not go higher) rather then what you should torque things too?

 

[wiscoaster]

Do torque values matter? You bet. I used to be one those "tighten it up until it feels right" kind of guys. And most of the time you can get away with that. But that approach is going to bite sooner or later, so even if the instructions don't say to tighten to a given torque value I still torque all of my scope mounts and rings, using 15 unless specifically given as something else by the manufacturer.

 

[Rule3]

I love it when people write in acronyms, models and other alpha number stuff and then talk about torque values
Even worse in the SW forums, Whats a good load for a 61 dash 5?

 

[230RN]

As a matter of general advice --what else would you expect? --follow the recommended torque specs. The manufacturers don't like getting "defective" stuff back because things were shifting around under recoil.

I found that heavy recoil can shift sights quite a bit if you don't really lock stuff down (within the limits of the thread strength) and you end up chasing zeros for the first part of the next session. (Make sure the scope is actually being squeezed by the mounts. I've had to stick a foil shim in between the scope and the mount to make sure they would be tightly held together. One manufacturer's ID may not mean the OD of another manufacturer.)

I haven't dealt with sights on handguns, though, since I prefer lasers on my carry guns, so all this is kind of limited to long arms.

Terry, 230RN

 

[reddog81]

On 22 lr finger tight is usually good enough. On a 12 gauge or something like a 450 Bushmaster I use a little more. My one and only torque wrench is for cars so I have no idea what the actual measurements are. If a screw comes loose that means it needs to be tighter and/or add some type of loctite.

 

[wiscoaster]

...Even worse in the SW forums, Whats a good load for a 61 dash 5?

I would understand what was being asked even if it wasn't in a Smith & Wesson forum.

 

[Rule3]

I would understand what was being asked even if it wasn't in a Smith & Wesson forum.

The force is strong within you.

Been around guns my whole life. Had to look up BG. Maverick. Was familiar with UTG but not the specific. Knew 10/22

Guess it is to much to type Savage or Mossberg( or be hip and type Mossy)

 

[bangswitch]

Just tighten it until you feel it start to strip, then back off 1/4 turn.

 

[rbernie]

I decided to use my torque wrench and (attempt to) get everything to spec. Stock screws, rails, scope rings base and cap, everything. I found that the recommended torque values seemed way too high.

Clicker or beam wrench? Clickers will need to be recalibrated ever so often, and most folk don't do that since it's hard to find somewhere local that offers commercial calibration. I've had several inch/lb clickers in my past that were more than 10% off (actual to setting) straight out-of-the-box. For my at-home work, I use beam wrenches and hope for the best.

Of course, the cleanliness and dryness of the threads also affects final torque, so there is that. Most gun-specific torque recommendation assume dry/clean, but there are exceptions (e.g. AR-pattern barrel nuts). The pre-applied thread locker that many small screws come with these days will definitely make a mockery of getting accurate torque readings.

I was shooting centerfire rifles I would need to go up to higher torque values

Just FYI - torque value is largely informed by the dimensions and material of the fastener and not necessarily its intended use.

https://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Torque-Tension Chart for A307 Gr5 Gr8 Gr9.pdf

 

[Mk-211]

Just glad to hear that you used inch pounds and not foot pounds.

Its easy for people to make that mistake if they never used a torque wrench before. Nothing on scope rings or mounts needs foot pounds.

Even the screws on the receiver use inch pounds to tighten it to the stock. Most manufacturers will provide them if you ask.

 

[dh1633pm]

I am a torque wrench hater. I still follow the rules. From Triple square on the VW calipers to lug nuts and yes scope rings. Sure is a pain, but it pays in the long run.

 

[herrwalther]

Speaking as a gunsmith, yes torque values matter. There are things that come into the shop to repair that could have been prevented with the right torque. Just to name a few crushed scopes, inaccuracy in rifles, and of course stripped screws. Many manufacturers of parts will have their recommended torque settings on the package or online if you are willing to dig a little. Nightforce is pretty good about publishing their torque specs for scope rings and bases, for example. Other times you cannot find the specs, or the maker is out of business. In those instances, you can follow general principles. Such as aluminum rings on a steel scope base with size X fastener will have a general torque setting different from steel on steel with size Y fastener.

Going as close as possible to the manufacturer or the general torque settings is what I normally do. If I find a recommended torque setting is 15 in/lbs, I might try 10, 12, 13 first. On something like an AR barrel, it is 40-80 ft/lbs. That is a huge range where you start at 40, check alignment, and start going up until the gas tube lines up with everything.

 

[jmr40]

I use the old German method. I get them Gootentite.

I don't have a torque wrench, but most mounts use an Allen wrench. I've been told that if you are holding the short end of the wrench and get them as tight as you can with that small amount of leverage it is about right. That method has always worked for me

 

[OrangeCat]

I use the old German method. I get them Gootentite.

I don't have a torque wrench, but most mounts use an Allen wrench. I've been told that if you are holding the short end of the wrench and get them as tight as you can with that small amount of leverage it is about right. That method has always worked for me

Speaking as someone who works in a factory setting where everything is held in place with Allen head screws, anyone using a cheater bar on an Allen wrench should be terminated with Soviet prejudice.

 

[twofewscrews]

The force is strong within you.

Been around guns my whole life. Had to look up BG. Maverick. Was familiar with UTG but not the specific. Knew 10/22

Guess it is to much to type Savage or Mossberg( or be hip and type Mossy)

I didn't realize that the answer to my question would change depending on manufacturer/item in question . . . derp derp

 

[twofewscrews]

Speaking as a gunsmith, yes torque values matter. There are things that come into the shop to repair that could have been prevented with the right torque. Just to name a few crushed scopes, inaccuracy in rifles, and of course stripped screws. Many manufacturers of parts will have their recommended torque settings on the package or online if you are willing to dig a little. Nightforce is pretty good about publishing their torque specs for scope rings and bases, for example. Other times you cannot find the specs, or the maker is out of business. In those instances, you can follow general principles. Such as aluminum rings on a steel scope base with size X fastener will have a general torque setting different from steel on steel with size Y fastener.

Going as close as possible to the manufacturer or the general torque settings is what I normally do. If I find a recommended torque setting is 15 in/lbs, I might try 10, 12, 13 first. On something like an AR barrel, it is 40-80 ft/lbs. That is a huge range where you start at 40, check alignment, and start going up until the gas tube lines up with everything.

What would be an instance of not being able to get to the manufacturers torque setting? or another way of putting, what would prevent you or stop from torquing something to a manufacturers setting?

 

[twofewscrews]

Clicker or beam wrench? Clickers will need to be recalibrated ever so often, and most folk don't do that since it's hard to find somewhere local that offers commercial calibration. I've had several inch/lb clickers in my past that were more than 10% off (actual to setting) straight out-of-the-box. For my at-home work, I use beam wrenches and hope for the best.

Of course, the cleanliness and dryness of the threads also affects final torque, so there is that. Most gun-specific torque recommendation assume dry/clean, but there are exceptions (e.g. AR-pattern barrel nuts). The pre-applied thread locker that many small screws come with these days will definitely make a mockery of getting accurate torque readings.

Just FYI - torque value is largely informed by the dimensions and material of the fastener and not necessarily its intended use.

https://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Torque-Tension Chart for A307 Gr5 Gr8 Gr9.pdf

I knew that torque value is informed by size and material, like the same sized screw should be torqued less in an an aluminum receiver as opposed to a steel receiver, but I, for some unknown reason, assumed that with lower recoil firearm getting the torque setting to manufacturer specs was less important then it was on higher recoil firearms. Intended use seemed as important as size and material but I guess that don't really make sense. Ya live ya learn. .

 

[twofewscrews]

Just glad to hear that you used inch pounds and not foot pounds.

Its easy for people to make that mistake if they never used a torque wrench before. Nothing on scope rings or mounts needs foot pounds.

Even the screws on the receiver use inch pounds to tighten it to the stock. Most manufacturers will provide them if you ask.

I have my fair share of blonde moments but I'd have to be pretty intoxicated to use ft/lbs instead of in/lbs . . . that and my torque wench measures in/lbs and not ft/lbs ;-)

 

[rust collector]

As noted, torque tools may not give a precise reading, and many of us are not schooled in their use. The industry standard is to apply anti-seize, but many of the fasteners for sights and accessories have thread locker applied. Error or inaccuracy is likelier than not, so err on the side of less torque. If you over torque, the fastener, scope or other equipment will be damaged. If you undertorque, the worst that can happen is something slips or shifts. It's never as simple as we think. Here is a link to a good article: https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/torque-and-fasteners-a-non-comprehensive-faq

 

[12Bravo20]

While I don't have experience with the Savage B22, if it is anything like their MkII/93 series and Model 10/110 series, then yes properly torquing the stock screws matters a lot. On the MkII Savage recommends 15 inch pounds while they recommend 20 inch pounds for the B22 and 30-35 inch pounds for centerfire rifles.

If you want consistent accuracy out of your rifle then you really need to constantly torque the action screws each and every time.

 

[Reloadron]

I torque to the manufacturer's suggested torque. Torque is an industry term.

Ron

 

[lightman]

I'm one that thinks it matters. Several years ago I bought a 1/4in drive torque wrench made by the company that made Snap-Ons torque wrenches. And I bought 1/4in drive 6 sided sockets that fit the cross bolts on my rings and hex and Torx sockets that fit my ring and base screws. And action screws.

Over kill? Yeah. Probably, maybe? But I know they are right. For years I used my calibrated wrist and got by with it.

 

[arsterling180]

I'm one that thinks it matters. Several years ago I bought a 1/4in drive torque wrench made by the company that made Snap-Ons torque wrenches. And I bought 1/4in drive 6 sided sockets that fit the cross bolts on my rings and hex and Torx sockets that fit my ring and base screws. And action screws.

Over kill? Yeah. Probably, maybe? But I know they are right. For years I used my calibrated wrist and got by with it.

I think you just care and want to get it right the first time around.

 

[230RN]

Then there are Newton-Meters.

One Newton-Meter is about 3/4 of a foot-pound.

These guys:

https://getcalculators.com/physics/newton-meter

have it as 0.737561 foot-pounds of force which in my understanding is incorrect. The "force" number may be true if the torque arm (torque radius) is exactly one foot.

Newton is not the name of the town in Massachusetts for which Fig Newtons are named, but is the name of an actual scientist. I confess ignorance as to who this guy Meter is. He must be a great scientist since his name appears everywhere. The metric unit of weight is named after Hans Christian Gram.

Terry, 230RN

(Edited for typos.)

 

[redcon1]

There's more to torquing than just turning the wrench. It matters where you hold the wrench, how you hold the wrench, if the threads are dry or wet, if your torque wrench is in spec or out of spec, if you're using an adapter that changes the angle from where you apply the force (the handle) to the centerline of the bolt being torqued, etc. For delicate little hex head screws like we see on scopes, I always used to use the long part of a hex wrench so I couldn't apply too much torque with my fingers. Now I use my real avid torque wrench for those applications and it feels like it's right around where I used to tighten them by feel but it's reassuring to know that I did the job the harder right way (to the best of my abilities) rather than doing it the easier wrong way.