Do you Carry chambered?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Definately

I always carry one in the pipe. The Glock 22 I carry for a duty weapon most days isn't going to go off anyway and the Uzi Eagle .40S&W is single/double action so I carry it loaded but with the de-cocker lever engaged. No way that thing is going off in that condition but I can disengage the de-cocker and squeeze off a round with only a few milliseconds difference.

I have heard, though, that when Mosaad and ISF were carrying the Jericho they Didn't carry one in the pipe but practiced racking the slide as they drew the weapon. It's easier for me to just flip the de-cocker with my thumb as I draw. I never put my finger in the trigger gaurd unless I am going to fire a round.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Burying your head in the sand only makes your a** a better target.
 
One in the pipe

I definately had to get in on this one, as me and my roomate have this "go-around" all the time. I carry a Springfield EMP (1911 style) loaded, ready to go, safety off......yes, even in single action. My roomate has a Springfield XD with all the frills (trigger safety, internal hammer, etc.) and he carries it UNLOADED despite all his safety features. I love the fact that mine has a nice Kydex holster that it fits in too, totally covering the trigger. If I ever get itchy about it, or just have to put it in my belt instead, the EMP has a grip safety and a ambidex. saftey on the frame as well if needed. Just a chance I'm willing to take I guess, as I want to get my first shot off ASAP in a situation. Sorry (just my opinion, and like I tell my roomate)...why would anyone carry any other way???
 
i thought carrying with a round in the chamber was the onmly way to do it!:)

and no there is no manual safety on my ccw, any of them and i like it that way.
 
I always carry one in the pipe. I carry my Kimber UCII cocked and locked. I carry my USP Compact decocked, safety off. A carried weapon without a round in the chamber is a hammer, not a gun, when you actually need to use it.
 
I clearly am not of the same mindset as a lot of people - I live in the suburbs and don't consider it necessary to keep one chambered. If I were a LEO or if I wasn't constantly handling my pistol to go from normal CC into the post office back to the car and then to the bedside table at night I might think differently. I just think the minuscule possibility of an ND trumps the even more miniscule possibility that I will need to fire RIGHT NOW.

FWIW though I do keep my Glock cocked with an empty chamber and in 2+ years of CC'ing I've never accidentally made the gun "click."
 
alexd said:
....I just think the minuscule possibility of an ND trumps the even more miniscule possibility that I will need to fire RIGHT NOW.
FWIW, what my instructors (including instructors at Gunsite. Louis Awerbuck and Massad Ayoob) have told me is that there is an extremely minuscule possibility I will need my gun at all, ever. But if I do need it, there is a very high probability that I will need to be ready to be able to fire quickly. I pretty much feel that I need to go with the information I paid them for, so when I can legally carry, I have a round in the chamber.
 
I just think the minuscule possibility of an ND trumps the even more miniscule possibility that I will need to fire RIGHT NOW.
Not long ago, a guy walked into a Lane Bryant store in Tinley Park, Illinois. He herded six women into the back and shot shot them all, killing five. I've been to Tinley Park. It isn't exactly a war zone.

Just exactly how do you know WHEN you'll need to fire "RIGHT NOW" until you actually need to? When you need to, you'd better have two good hands, enough time and presence of mind. There's no guarantee that you'll have any of those. But it's your choice. Just make sure it's a rational, informed choice.
 
If, when I woke up in the morning, I could say myself (and know it was true), "Today I won't have an automobile accident" I wouldn't fastern my seat belt.

If I could say, "Today I won't have a flat," I could leave my spare and jack at home that day.

If I could say, "This year my house won't burn or be hit by a tornado," I could save money by canceling my homeowner's insurance.

If I could say, "This year no one in my family will have a serious illness," I could save money by canceling my medical insurance.

But I can't foretell the future like that.

And that's why I go cocked-and-locked.
 
Yeah, a lot of people freak out when they see a 1911 carried C&L, not realizing that most of the glocks and other striker-fired weapons are more than likely being kept the same way.
 
There are so many threads on this subject that it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide:

1. The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw. That's it.

2. If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation. Your goal now is NOT to draw, but to escape so that you can.

3. The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, the last to be affected by stress and panic.

4. An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw. Unlike the Israeli draw, it requires fine motor skills, the first to go under stress. Accordingly a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety.

All fine motor skills lost under stress.

All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.

Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.

Now I'd like specifically address some of the comments made:

Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time.

Actually I probably overstated the additional time to rack and chamber at 0.3 seconds. And you don't have to be a trained Israeli commando either. Actually it is not really an additional step. You draw and rack as the gun is moved forward. The gun has to cover the same path whether it is racked or not. It did not take me much practice before my draw/rack was one smooth motion.

It is VERY important to realize that most of us have never been in a real firefight. It has been well discussed the loss of the fine motor skills needed to activate a safety are the first to go. Many people even pee their pants, and even experienced LE's have been known to go blank and/or shoot wildly at very short range.

The real honest truth is that when facing life and death, probably for the first time, the Israeli draw - which CAN be accomplished with the gross motor skills we have left - will likely be more reliably faster.

You lose one extra round you'd otherwise have.

If under stress, you can't perform fine motor skills, you will die with that one extra round.

Don't the police carry with one in the pipe?

This has been well addressed. Regardless of the fact that even experienced LE have been known to lose it, most of us are not police. We lack the training, exposure, experience and practice. We are FAR more likely to suffer from the debilitating effects of extreme stress.

Most of the arguments people have made to me for not carrying one in the pipe are variations of, "I'll never be able to remember firearms safety, so I should make sure I don't keep one in the pipe so everyone is safe.

It's not about that at all, in fact it's just the opposite. NOT carrying one "in the chute" will keep us safer, more reliably, than carrying one. The famous Fairborne and Sykes developed tactics in the early 1900's that continue until today. Their attitudes developed from their experiences in Shanghai, and from hundreds of interviews and visits with police departments around the country.

Their position: pin the safety and carry a full magazine with nothing in the chamber. They recognized nearly a hundred years ago that the safety was a detriment, not an advantage.

Ultimately, it comes down to removing as much uncertainty and chance as I possibly can for a situation which already has infinite permutations / factors I cannot control. Since I know that, I should do all I can with the factors I can control.

On that we agree. Relying on dependable gross motor skills does exactly that...
 
Evela said:
All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.

Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.

Respectfully, I completely disagree with you on this one... Your argument is that citizens aren't trained as well as police officers (sometimes true, sometimes not), therefore they should ADD an extra step to the process of preparing their gun for the fight. That is completely illogical in my mind.

I'm not sure what your aversion is to carrying the weapon chambered, or why you feel that it is unsafe to do so? I'm a police officer, and I carry a chambered gun 365 days per year, both on and off duty. Yes, I've trained a lot, both through work and on my own time. But, the gun is no more likely to fire on my hip than it is on anyone else's hip. Simply put, chambered or not, my Glock is not going to fire itself while it sits secured in a properly fitting holster.

Negligent discharges that result from a chambered weapon happen as a result of poor training and technique on the part of the shooter (things like drawing or holstering with the finger inside of the trigger guard, etc). Admittedly, each weapon system is different, and their are some quirks between guns that define how you should carry that particular pistol in the holster (cocked/decocked/safety on/no safety/etc). You argue that the Israeli Draw doesn't add much time, but you neglect to realize that there is no need to add any additional time to the draw while preparing to fire in a life and death situation.

For what its worth, I carry a Glock. This weapon has no external safety, but will not fire unless the trigger is moved from a forward to rearward position. As such, even without an external safety, it is completely safe to carry this gun with a loaded chamber, in a properly fitting holster.

Whatever the time may be, the Israeli Draw will add to it... Fractions of a second can get you killed in a gunfight. I just hope that any target I may engage in the future chooses to use ANY method that might slow them down, even if it is only be a fraction of a second (that's enough time for me to gain an edge, and the same can probably be said for most experienced shooters).
 
I'm comfortable CCing a revolver fully loaded or an auto that is chambered, but only those that are first-shot fired with a DA trigger-pull, so that's the kind I CC. Cocked and locked I just can't get comfortable with, as I'm not OK with something that is ready to fire with a light trigger pull, as would be the case if the lock was jostled into the "unlocked" position while carrying. Then I'm CCing as if it was a cocked revolver, which I wouldn't do either.

Does this make any sense?

Les
 
Please look to find that the Isreali mode of carry has caught up with modern times. I am sorry to say that they now carry with one in the pipe.

Some people are dangerous with a gun wether it is loaded or not. If you choose to carry unloaded, good for you. If you carry with one in the pipe, good for you.
 
Cocked. Locked. Ready to Rock.

Training Training Training. This isnt hollywood.
You have to practice firearm safety, discipline and combat techniques.
Even then there is a chance that you probably will die. =)
Practice and training doesn't make you a shooter although it can help alot.
 
In that I may need my none firing hand to slow an attacker while gaining access to my hardware. I always carry in condition 1, (i.e. cocked and locked, safety on)
 
Evela said:
...it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide...
Let's examine some of your so called "facts."

Evela said:
...The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw....
And you still need two hands.

Evela said:
...If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation.....
How do you know and on what bases do you claim that? At Gunsite, par was two rounds center of mass from leather in 1.5 seconds at 7 yards -- approximately the time it takes an assailant to cover those 7 yards with a contact weapon. Your 0.3 seconds is a 20% increase in your time and can make the difference between getting your hits and being overrun, even with moving back (as we've been taught). And you still need two hands.

Evela said:
...The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, ....
But you still need two hands.

Evela said:
...An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw.....
On what do you base this supposition? Sweeping off the safety (especially with a 1911) is done while bringing the gun onto the target. It adds absolutely no time.

Evela said:
...An external safety...requires fine motor skills,...
ON what do you base this supposition? In fact, it does not. Sweeping off the safety is not a fine motor skill.

Evela said:
... a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety....
And on what do you base this supposition? This is a matter of training and practice. The Israeli draw also requires considerable training and practice. Do you suggest that someone will train and practice enough to master the Israeli draw but not enough to master management of a safety? And the Israeli draw still need two hands.

As has been previously noted, the major schools and trainers (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, Chapman Academy, Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, etc.) teach carrying with a round chambered. Evela, where did you get your training?

And BTW, did I mention that the Israeli draw requires two hands? What are you supposed to do if you don't have two hands available?
 
Glock, one in the chamber. This is what I've settled on, because I do believe strongly in the KISS approach being best under stress. I don't want to mess with extra steps like safetys, or racking slides, or anything else that can go wrong when under stress. The consistent trigger pull is another factor in the KISS philosophy, removing the potential complication of a DA/SA transition. I like the other physical aspects of the Glock platform, which make for a very good carry pistol... so that is now what I use.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top