Typical. I just love the way you guys parse me selectively and ignore some very important facts. Two can play this game...
"And racking the chamber doesn't require fine motor skill?
No. It's a gross motor skill. Fiddling with safeties, decockers, mag releases and slide releases are fine skills. Glock didn't deliver most of their guns with an extended release since it was assumed that racking (a gross skill) would be a preferred method over activating a slide release (better called a slide lock), a FINE motor skill.
"Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what?"
That's exactly right. LE is trained to carry professionally and are better equipped to take the risks. Most CCW users have never been in a firefight, and will suffer much more stress. Fine motor skills are the first to go. Read Ayoob for details.
"It is actually less difficult to switch off a safety considering it requires less range of motion and less strength to operate."
Nope, you're just plain wrong. Switching off a safety - a fine motor skill - will be difficult, confusing and impossible for most users facing death for the first time.
"If those of us who aren't law enforcement and not trained are more likely to panic, WHY would we want to add another step into the whole process??"
You really need to improve your reading skills. I thought I made it clear that racking really doesn't add a step. The gun must follow the same path from holster to presentation whether it is racked or not. It is simply racked on the way. I can tell you it doesn't take much practice for your draw and rack becomes just one smooth movement to presentation.
"Ok...and what if you don't have your other hand free? This requires 2 hands."
This is called arguing by exception. Apparently you're willing to trade thousands of opportunities for AD/UD's (called daily handling) for the extremely rare likelihood that you'll have to actually shoot another human being, to be compounded by the even rarer likelihood that you have only one hand to work with. Is that about it?
Fact is, it is actually pretty common to learn to rack with one hand, a skill that is often taught in real training. Second, if you have less than say 0.2 or 0.3 seconds (you really do need to actually read my posts), you're probably either in, or about to be in hand-to-hand confrontation. A situation in which your primary goal is to escape, so that you CAN draw. Got that?
And since you seem to really dig exceptions, how bout the fact that being disarmed and shot is another real and common risk. Bet you'd appreciate the BG having to fumble trying to figure out why your unchambered gun won't fire. Cause if it was chambered, you'd be joining Teddy Kennedy right then.
"Again...loss of motor skill = chambering a round? What?? If there is a loss of motor skill, why would I want to worry about chambering a round??"
Please don't tell me you're making an argument to carry "cocked but NOT locked"! Until or unless you install a custom manual safety on your Glock, it's in Condition Zero - a state that one should avoid until your gun is presented, pointed and ready to fire. Let's stick to the facts. While you are peeing your pants you can either try to deal with going blank and losing the ability to perform the fine motor skills of fumbling with a safety that is on, er off, er Oh Gawd I forget! Or perform the simple, practiced and retained motor skill of racking your weapon.
No contest.
"A safety is a detriment...for whom? How is it any more or less of a detriment than not having one chambered?"
Oh man, you really don't get it. Get back to me when you've figured out the difference between fine and gross motor skills. Under stress, anything that is a fine motor skill is indeed a detriment. Gross skills, like drawing, racking, pointing and pulling are not.
"Thanks for not including my ENTIRE quote and cutting them up to suite your fake facts. You should be banned for this IMHO"
Don't flatter yourself. I could have found any number of posters who share and who have posted similar views. These views are common enough to be cited and addressed, and I did so. It's a public forum. My advice: be openminded enough to consider alternative viewpoints. The points I raised are indeed facts, and Mr. Google may be of assistance to you.
It's fine if you want put your life on the line hoping that you'll retain your fine motor skills. This is a decision that each person needs to make for themselves. As for me, it didn't take long to see how fast, generally safe and effective the Israeli draw is.
Now let's move on to the next challenger...
"And you still need two hands."
Ho hum. Nope. Not only can you draw and rack with one hand, but for many reasons this would be the rare, rare exception. Certainly balanced by the higher liklihood that the BG might disarm and immediately shoot you with your one in the chamber. See above.
"How do you know and on what bases do you claim that? At Gunsite, par was two rounds center of mass from leather in 1.5 seconds at 7 yards -- approximately the time it takes an assailant to cover those 7 yards with a contact weapon. Your 0.3 seconds is a 20% increase in your time..."
How silly. How many of the average, everyday CCW'ers have even heard of Gunsite, much less attended there. Not too many. In a pants peeing situation, they might not even be able to find their holster, much less draw it, much less fumble around trying to find and activate, er deactivate the safety - sadly, a fine motor skill they're missing. You really need to read "Bulleyes Don't Shoot Back" - a good read for you and most of the readers who've never had to actually kill another human being, whether you attended Gunsite or not, and whether or not you were able to put two good ones into the target A-zone.
Real life is different. It's a time when all you have left are your gross skills, if those.
"On what do you base this supposition (An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw? Sweeping off the safety (especially with a 1911) is done while bringing the gun onto the target. It adds absolutely no time."
Now we're cookin! As a fine motor skill, and with urine warming your leg, it may add a LOT of time, or may not get done at all. And as I stated (you guys really need to read my posts, just not point and shoot, lol), I've really overstated the additional time the Israeli draw takes.
If you'd actually read my post, you'd have noted that the gun from draw to presentation has to travel the same path, in about the same time whether you rack or not! One study - with a decent shooter who was trying the Israeli draw for the first time, and with just a little practice - found it took him around 0.2 to 0.3 seconds more with about the same accuracy. That's what I call "barely slower" - and truth is, with some real practice, I'd expect even that minor difference to reduce or even disappear.
"This is a matter of training and practice. The Israeli draw also requires considerable training and practice. Do you suggest that someone will train and practice enough to master the Israeli draw but not enough to master management of a safety?"
Pardon me for feeding your straw man to the horses, but the Israeli draw doesn't any require any exception dedication or more or less practice than any other safety or gun handling skill. You really oughta practice it, along with your FTF's and FTE's. It's really not that difficult. Heck, it only took me a couple days to go faster than 0.3 seconds. And that can only improve. And remember, this is only an alternative for those who don't want to trust their life to retaining their fine motor skills in a real gunfight.
I won't. I KNOW I can draw and rack, present, point and fire in just about the same same time it takes to draw, present and fire. Remember, the gun follows the same path, in about the same time, whether you rack or not. Sorry.
"As has been previously noted, the major schools and trainers (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, Chapman Academy, Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, etc.) teach carrying with a round chambered. Evela, where did you get your training?"
Oh, are we being challenging now? Oh my. Med school, and like 98% of the common carriers reading this now, I have NOT been trained by your name dropped buddies. But you may be interested to know that Massad - I don't know about your buddy "Etc.", lol - is very clear on the effects of panic and stress for most of us, including you my trained killer pal. All of which I learned well at a fine research university. Since you seem to want to defer to Massad, lemme quote him...
Massad:
"When human beings are in danger, their inborn survival mechanisms trigger a number phsiological changes, one of which is vasoconstriction... blood is shunted into the body's core and into the major muscle groups. (People) are seen to turn ghostly pale, and it is why people lose tactile sensation in their fingers under stress. "
It's one of the reasons he recommends the NY#1.
These effects are well known even to first year med students. In addition, people can have panic attacks and go blank. Is the safety on? Is if off? People fumble, shake and lose the ability to do even very simple, practiced things like working the small controls on a gun, for example. These controls include the slide release, lock release, mag release and your good friend "Etc." All of which require the finer motor skills. Racking - which uses the whole hand - in relatively large, gross, powerful movements requires only gross skills, skills which tend NOT to be forgotten, and can still be successfully completed.
Since you seem a bit resistant, or god forbid dense, let me give you a simple example. You are driving home with you wife and kids, having a nice family conversation when - out of nowhere - a large semi truck is coming right at you and you are within seconds of dying. Say 7 yards, lol. If you are fortunate you may retain the gross motor skills of swerving the steering wheel and/or mashing on the brakes or accelerator.
But this would be a terrible time to say, dial your cellphone. In fact, even when the crash or evasion is over, you STILL might not be able to even dial the number for 911 - your hands will be shaking, and indeed you may be blank or pass out. Or wet your pants.
It's the same in a gunfight. I just love the macho maniacs who just love talking about how many holes their gonna blow in any fool who messes with them, yeah, yeah - but who have never fought with much more than a bullseye.
But now we've all had our fun. You've shot at me, and found out my dog bites (a gross motor skill, BTW). You got a little of what you gave. But let's put all that in the past.
Let's be friends.
I'm sure you're all well meaning, but it's fair to say there is more than one approach. The decision to rely on "locked and loaded" and to fumble with a fine motor safety (which may already be off, how confusing) - or - on having to perform a simple, and safe rack - in just about the same amount of time is a decision that each person must make for themselves.
I don't think you're nuts - but I do think you haven't fully considered all the issues. The issue of stress cannot be underestimated and must absolutely figure into your calculus of carrying and survival.
In my case, I'm honestly not very bothered by your breathless exceptions (what if you don't have two hands???!!). I'm very, very fast with the draw, and next on my to-practice list is the one hand rack, just in case lightning strikes...
While you are fumbling with your safety...
zombie threads.If those of us who aren't law enforcement and not trained are more likely to panic, WHY would we want to add another step into the whole process??
