Do you consider the debates about SD bullet, and gun selection to be meaningless?
- Thread starter Jeeper
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I AM NOT TRYING TO INSULT ANYONE WITH THIS POLL.
For me I think most of the debate between bullets and so forth is rather useless. Instead of reading about ammo I think people should be practicing. I think that most gunfights(if you want to call them that) will be at such a close range and consist of very few rounds. I think that placement is 1,000000000 times more important than bullet or caliber selection.
That being said I carry a P-14 45ACp with 14 rounds of Gold Dots.
For me I think most of the debate between bullets and so forth is rather useless. Instead of reading about ammo I think people should be practicing. I think that most gunfights(if you want to call them that) will be at such a close range and consist of very few rounds. I think that placement is 1,000000000 times more important than bullet or caliber selection.
That being said I carry a P-14 45ACp with 14 rounds of Gold Dots.
J Miller
Member
I am an unashamed big bore fan. I have carried .45's for some where near 30 years. Both revolvers and autos.
My vote went to the "any reasonable gun and caliber" choice. With my skills, and shooting experiance I could if required use just about anything in a self defence situation.
The debate between the small bore fans and the big bore fans will never end. Never.
Just as soon as one debate dies down someone will start another one. Sometimes it's a gunwriter trying to prove something, or a person new to shooting that doesn't have the experiance to sift through the spam to find the real facts. Or a new bullet, or gun, but needless to say, it will never end.
I prefer big bores. I honestly can't put the why into words, I'm just comfortable with them. Maybe that's the whole point.
I don't really believe in the hi-cap auto's, never been convinced they are worth the extra bulk.
Altho in certain limited cercumstances I guess they could be bennificial.
I rarely get involved with the 9mm 45acp debate, but this thread intreagued me.
It will be interesting to follow.
J
My vote went to the "any reasonable gun and caliber" choice. With my skills, and shooting experiance I could if required use just about anything in a self defence situation.
The debate between the small bore fans and the big bore fans will never end. Never.
Just as soon as one debate dies down someone will start another one. Sometimes it's a gunwriter trying to prove something, or a person new to shooting that doesn't have the experiance to sift through the spam to find the real facts. Or a new bullet, or gun, but needless to say, it will never end.
I prefer big bores. I honestly can't put the why into words, I'm just comfortable with them. Maybe that's the whole point.
I don't really believe in the hi-cap auto's, never been convinced they are worth the extra bulk.
Altho in certain limited cercumstances I guess they could be bennificial.
I rarely get involved with the 9mm 45acp debate, but this thread intreagued me.
It will be interesting to follow.
J
El Tejon
Member
Meaningless? Not by any means. It shows that the person is enthused and beginning to give the topic serious study. Besides, who wants to talk about the office, even Glock vs. ZIG is more fun!
Hardware is the first step. You have to crawl before you run.
Hardware is the first step. You have to crawl before you run.
I was heartened to see that the majority of the respondees (~46%) are thoughtful and intelligent (agree with me) but was saddened to see that 26% of the respondees are apparently idots, i mean what would you call someone who responds to a poll that they say is stupid?
I have to admit that 20 years ago when I began shooting and became interested in handguns I read every article in every gun mag and believed a lot of stuff as gospel that I now take with a very big grain of salt. I dumped the 9mm for the 40 S&W because I had another 6% of stopping the bad guy with one shot etc. etc. Don't get me wrong I do believe that some rounds work better than others its just that I have come to the realization that its the operator more often that determines the outcome than the bullet or hardware. I still have my .40's, .45's and so on but I am once again very comfortable with a good 9mm or .38 as I originally was. Mike
Just something for you heavy and slow vs. light and fast fans to muse over.
A 16 pound bowling ball mowing at 40 fps has more ft.lbs. of energy than an .45 ACP 230 gr. bullet at 860fps.
So what does that mean?
Absolutely noting.
Carry and shoot what you are comfortable with.
A 16 pound bowling ball mowing at 40 fps has more ft.lbs. of energy than an .45 ACP 230 gr. bullet at 860fps.
So what does that mean?
Absolutely noting.
Carry and shoot what you are comfortable with.
No4Mk1
Member
That would be like dropping a bowling ball from a height of over 30 feet.... 
So what does that mean?
I don't want to be standing under it!
So what does that mean?
I don't want to be standing under it!
I think the 19th century British pistol caliber studies tested on real live hostile human beings are the only valid study concerning self-defense performance. A large caliber, heavy, slow moving bullet is PROVEN to be highly effective against hostile/angry/insane/healthy male human beings. Their data source, (and also the best possible) hundreds of documented cases reported by serving British officers on (and off) the field of battle against hostile natives. The study is somewhat of an embarressment to the British now (PC) and in our civilized world probably will never be "commissioned" again. Current reports do not take into account the emotional lever of the victim (passive/agressive). The reaction of an enraged, healthy, young adult male to a torso hit by a 9mm may be quite different than that of a passive, sickly, old woman. This is not to imply that a .357 magnum is not a good man-stopper, but shooting a passive goat or bull just isn't GOOD ENOUGH evidence. Now really, I like the 32 acp, but do you really think it's an effective manstopper like a 44 special or 45acp? There is a modern study that indicates it is. Stick with the tried and true if you can, their are an awful lot of dead fuzzy wuzzies that were the test subjects.
Does any ammunition manufacturer GUARANTEE the "stopping power" of their product based on these modern day "studies"?
explaining their design or performance does not constitute a warranty on stopping power. 100 years ago they did.
Does any ammunition manufacturer GUARANTEE the "stopping power" of their product based on these modern day "studies"?
explaining their design or performance does not constitute a warranty on stopping power. 100 years ago they did.
QuarterBoreGunner
Member
I've always carried a Glock .45
Glock because it works for me, simple, reliable and accurate for what I consider the self-defense envelope.
.45 because, hey man, 1/2 inch hole and that's with no expansion; it just gets bigger from there.
Sure there are great terminal ballistics performers in other calibers, but I just prefer the .45.
So there you go.
Glock because it works for me, simple, reliable and accurate for what I consider the self-defense envelope.
.45 because, hey man, 1/2 inch hole and that's with no expansion; it just gets bigger from there.
Sure there are great terminal ballistics performers in other calibers, but I just prefer the .45.
So there you go.
blades67
Member
I don't consider them useless, you can learn much about a person by the way they debate, but they're unimportant to me because I've made my choices.
I won't argue about the validity since i've never heard of the sourse that you refer to. However i would say that it simply isn't relevant. .357, 9, .40, .45 ..none of the modern defensive pistol calibers existed in the 19th century. The state of the art for then was slow because they couldn't make them go fast with black powder and inferior metalurgy. Of course probably 90% of serious wounds were lethal (eventually) 'cause no combat medics with antibiotics.
Nope, I don't really care.
Bottom line: When your time is up, your time is up.
When the creator says you are done, you are.
It doesn't matter if you have an AK slung over your shoulder and a FAL in your hands. There have been men armed with better weapons than pistols, and many of them ended up dead anyhow.
Say what you will about .357 vs. 9mm vs. .45 ACP.
When your time is up, your time is up.
Bottom line: When your time is up, your time is up.
When the creator says you are done, you are.
It doesn't matter if you have an AK slung over your shoulder and a FAL in your hands. There have been men armed with better weapons than pistols, and many of them ended up dead anyhow.
Say what you will about .357 vs. 9mm vs. .45 ACP.
When your time is up, your time is up.
cool45auto
Member
I have and will carry my Beretta always. However, I love shooting all caliber guns and trying to be proficient with them. If someone says X is better than Y, "That's cool" I'll think, and continue shooting my Beretta.
Edward429451
member
About the time the wondernine craze started, I bought a .45 and followed the craze through Miami, the 10, the 40, and lately, the 357 sig. I never broke down and got any wunder-pistol.
The stopping power debate is entertaining and marketing at its best. 9's have had spectacular results as well as dismal failures. The 45's have had spectacular stops and dismal failures. Given time, the 357Sig will fail somewhere and be relegated to just another choice.
Jus keep practicing with what you're good with. I'll keep my .45, I'll not belittle anyone for their choice of calibers. The million $$ question is can you hit with it?
The stopping power debate is entertaining and marketing at its best. 9's have had spectacular results as well as dismal failures. The 45's have had spectacular stops and dismal failures. Given time, the 357Sig will fail somewhere and be relegated to just another choice.
Jus keep practicing with what you're good with. I'll keep my .45, I'll not belittle anyone for their choice of calibers. The million $$ question is can you hit with it?
Smoke
Member
I voted on "carried same thing for years" but could have just as easily gone with " any reasonable gun".
I have tried to pass on the 9mm vs. .40 vs. 10mm vs. .45 threads, and no, I don't want to stand in front of any of them.
I subscribe to the big hole theory. I carry 1911 style .45's. I think there is no better looking gun than a nice quality 1911. I think it fits my hand very well. I have trained with one for years and spent more time behind the sights of one than any other hand gun. Why should I change and mess up all that training for the flavor of the month.
I shoot Glocks Ok, I admire Sigs, I'm curious about the Springfiels XD, I like Colt wheel guns, I think H&K's are cool, BUT I TRAIN WITH A 1911.
SO you shoot a Sig .40? Great bring it and lets go shoot, but don't try to convince me its Excalibur.
I have tried to pass on the 9mm vs. .40 vs. 10mm vs. .45 threads, and no, I don't want to stand in front of any of them.
I subscribe to the big hole theory. I carry 1911 style .45's. I think there is no better looking gun than a nice quality 1911. I think it fits my hand very well. I have trained with one for years and spent more time behind the sights of one than any other hand gun. Why should I change and mess up all that training for the flavor of the month.
I shoot Glocks Ok, I admire Sigs, I'm curious about the Springfiels XD, I like Colt wheel guns, I think H&K's are cool, BUT I TRAIN WITH A 1911.
SO you shoot a Sig .40? Great bring it and lets go shoot, but don't try to convince me its Excalibur.
556A2
Member
Voted for Any Reasonable Gun in Any Reasonable Caliber. Wheater its 5 .357 Mags or 17 9mms it will get the job done. I perfer 15 +P Gold Dots myself.
Load selection may not be as imporant as good training and tactical mindset but its important.
Yes handguns suck in general but some loads do better than others. I want every edge I can get in a gunfight. So I keep up on the loads. I test them and I try to stay with what is the best currently available. I try to keep my guys armed with the best loads available. To ignore a piece of the pie is fool hardy. The good news is ammo has come along way and their are more good choices available today than there once was.
PAT
Yes handguns suck in general but some loads do better than others. I want every edge I can get in a gunfight. So I keep up on the loads. I test them and I try to stay with what is the best currently available. I try to keep my guys armed with the best loads available. To ignore a piece of the pie is fool hardy. The good news is ammo has come along way and their are more good choices available today than there once was.
PAT
Jeeper:
"For me I think most of the debate between bullets and so forth is rather useless. Instead of reading about ammo I think people should be practicing."
Jeeper, no insult meant and certainly no disrespect intended, but why have a forum? And why would you be on a forum yourself? And why do you choose the caliber an model that you carry? If everything is equal, how does one make a choice? Of course, there is always the benign 'because I shoot it better'.
I have recently discussed in favor of the .45 ACP, yet I realize that a 9mm and others are adequate rounds. As long as I and other are merely answering a question being posted, and doing so without disrespecting the other members of this forum, it should be welcomed. If it is something in which you do not wish to participate, then don't. There are other topics in which you will.
"For me I think most of the debate between bullets and so forth is rather useless. Instead of reading about ammo I think people should be practicing."
Jeeper, no insult meant and certainly no disrespect intended, but why have a forum? And why would you be on a forum yourself? And why do you choose the caliber an model that you carry? If everything is equal, how does one make a choice? Of course, there is always the benign 'because I shoot it better'.
I have recently discussed in favor of the .45 ACP, yet I realize that a 9mm and others are adequate rounds. As long as I and other are merely answering a question being posted, and doing so without disrespecting the other members of this forum, it should be welcomed. If it is something in which you do not wish to participate, then don't. There are other topics in which you will.
TheFrontRange
Member
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Put me in the "any reasonable gun and ammo" category. I agree with the previous posters who've said that the most important thing is for an individual to find the gun and ammo combo that works best for them and to make sure they can HIT with it, and that bullet placement is more important than caliber, weight in grains, bullet type, etc.
I've carried a number of different action types and calibers over the years in either a CCW format and even for a short while "on duty" as a Reserve Deputy. There are just too many really, really good weapons, calibers, and action types out there for there to be one that's "The Best" for everybody. I actually enjoy reading threads where everybody's talking about their fave handguns and ammo and gear, etc...it's cool to see all the variables out there!
As for me, lately I've been dividing my carry time between a Kimber 1911 in .45ACP and a SIG P239 in .40. A nice .357 DA revolver like a S&W Model 19 (or even better, a Smith Model 27 with a 5-inch barrel!) or a solid 9mm semi-auto would fill the bill for me, too.
I've carried a number of different action types and calibers over the years in either a CCW format and even for a short while "on duty" as a Reserve Deputy. There are just too many really, really good weapons, calibers, and action types out there for there to be one that's "The Best" for everybody. I actually enjoy reading threads where everybody's talking about their fave handguns and ammo and gear, etc...it's cool to see all the variables out there!
As for me, lately I've been dividing my carry time between a Kimber 1911 in .45ACP and a SIG P239 in .40. A nice .357 DA revolver like a S&W Model 19 (or even better, a Smith Model 27 with a 5-inch barrel!) or a solid 9mm semi-auto would fill the bill for me, too.
I'm boring. I just carry a good old full size 1911 .45 ACP. The debates are fine with me though. I look at it like I look at Benchrest shooting. I would never invest my time, money, etc. into learning about benchrest, benchrest guns, or benchrest reloading, but the benchresters perform R&D on a daily basis. I'll stick with a .308 or '06, but if they give us technological breakthroughs, more power to them.
H
Handy
Guest
There is so much misinformation out there that getting rapped around the axel about the current preferred load is like switching religions every Sunday.
Apparently, Saddam killed 8 million people, so maybe he has good data on "actual performance in live tissue", but no one else does. Hopefully, no one will.
There are no magic solutions. I choose the gun first, which is a 9mm in my case, then by a reputable manufacturers premium defense load and try to never use it. I can't imagine this puts me outside the power curve.
Apparently, Saddam killed 8 million people, so maybe he has good data on "actual performance in live tissue", but no one else does. Hopefully, no one will.
There are no magic solutions. I choose the gun first, which is a 9mm in my case, then by a reputable manufacturers premium defense load and try to never use it. I can't imagine this puts me outside the power curve.
D.W. Drang
Member
Harrumph. My reply seems to have Gone West. 
:banghead:
I almost never respond to polls here because I almost always wind up saying "None of the above."
What I responded here was that "This poll is silly" because the answers provided don't accurately reflect my feelings. Yeah, many of the threads referred to here DO descend into silliness. BUT...!
I've packed a 1911 w/the same (basic) load for years, but that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about new guns/calibers/cartridges, or combinations of same. This is especially true since LSW seems to feel that I am a Font of All Gun Knowledge --since she WILL ask me for an opinion I do not want to take a chance on her having to rely on my personal prejudices in the matter, ESPECIALY in a Life Or Death Situatin!
And since I am an NRA Pistol Instructor, the same applies--sure, it's fun to answer the inevitable "Best gun/caliber" question with "The best is a John Moses Browning design in a caliber that starts with a '4' and ends with a '4' or a '5'" but that wouldn't be doing the job the NRA doesn't pay me for...
"any reasonable gun and ammo"--but how am I to know what is reasonable without reading about them, short of getting involved in a fire fight?
:banghead: I almost never respond to polls here because I almost always wind up saying "None of the above."
What I responded here was that "This poll is silly" because the answers provided don't accurately reflect my feelings. Yeah, many of the threads referred to here DO descend into silliness. BUT...!
I've packed a 1911 w/the same (basic) load for years, but that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about new guns/calibers/cartridges, or combinations of same. This is especially true since LSW seems to feel that I am a Font of All Gun Knowledge
--since she WILL ask me for an opinion I do not want to take a chance on her having to rely on my personal prejudices in the matter, ESPECIALY in a Life Or Death Situatin! And since I am an NRA Pistol Instructor, the same applies--sure, it's fun to answer the inevitable "Best gun/caliber" question with "The best is a John Moses Browning design in a caliber that starts with a '4' and ends with a '4' or a '5'" but that wouldn't be doing the job the NRA doesn't pay me for...
"any reasonable gun and ammo"--but how am I to know what is reasonable without reading about them, short of getting involved in a fire fight?
My personal gun of choice is a Glock 23 with Corbon or Federal loads. Compact, simple, and reliable.
I'm not very picky about my gun or my load. As long as both are reliable, that's good enough for me. I am a firm believer in training over technology.
I don't care about the caliber, either, although I'd prefer something over 9mm. However, if I have a .32, and I have to shoot someone, I'll use it. I will shoot him, and then shoot him again. I will continue shooting him until he is laying dead on the ground or I am out of bullets. If I run out of bullets, and if he hasn't killed me yet, I will reload and shoot him some more. I will use the tool that I have, not stand there and say, "gee, I wish I had my 9mm (or .45, or .357).
Watching people rehash the same old caliber wars has become an amusing sport to me. I wouldn't carry a 9mm by choice, but I sure as hell don't want to be hit with one.
There are 3 things that are the most important to me:
1) Training
2) Training
3) Training
Oh, and training is important, too. I think that training with what you carry is important, but fundamentals are key.
I'm not very picky about my gun or my load. As long as both are reliable, that's good enough for me. I am a firm believer in training over technology.
I don't care about the caliber, either, although I'd prefer something over 9mm. However, if I have a .32, and I have to shoot someone, I'll use it. I will shoot him, and then shoot him again. I will continue shooting him until he is laying dead on the ground or I am out of bullets. If I run out of bullets, and if he hasn't killed me yet, I will reload and shoot him some more. I will use the tool that I have, not stand there and say, "gee, I wish I had my 9mm (or .45, or .357).
Watching people rehash the same old caliber wars has become an amusing sport to me. I wouldn't carry a 9mm by choice, but I sure as hell don't want to be hit with one.
There are 3 things that are the most important to me:
1) Training
2) Training
3) Training
Oh, and training is important, too. I think that training with what you carry is important, but fundamentals are key.
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