Do you double tap when you train

[gym]

I do and always have. Some folks don't realize that if you do have to shoot, you want to make sure whatever you are trying to stop, doesn't have the advantage to fire back at you, assuming they have the intent to, or already have fired at someone, in the first place , which is tricky unless of course they have already shot at someone In almost any scenario where you world have to shoot to protect your life, I have found that 2 or 3 rounds are better than 1.
Of course it all depends on how many assailants there are and how many bullets you have. But assuming you have a the capacity or are skilled at mag changes, it is almost a no brainer for me to make sure that if I have to shoot, I want the threat stopped as quickly as possible.

 

[herrwalther]

Life is expensive, ammo is cheap(er).

Some places don't allow double tap or controlled pair practice to end the threat training because it counts as "rapid fire" as some ranges have regs about 1 shot per 3 seconds or something. In any case I practice controlled pairs whenever I can.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Do you double tap when you train

When old terms like "Double Tap" come up, I like to define them as the meaning has often changed over time. I'm fairly confident you aren't using the term in it's original meaning.

The original definition of Double Tap by Jeff Cooper and as originally taught at Gunsite was taking one sight picture and pressing the trigger twice in rapid succession to fire two shots as the gun was rising.

How are you using the term?

 

[Dlowe167]

I do,and u should.2 in chest,1 in head.U should practice double tap,off handed,leaning left & right around obsticles,and a mix of all of above.When u fire,u are responsible for others around as well.Practice is for focus as well as safety!Not that it needs to be said,but i did.

 

[Rawss]

i do all kinds of things...double tap is one of them.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

9mmE, I think it's safe to assume that he means two shots fired as accurately and rapidly as possible. Unless somebody explicitly says they are using the word in it's original flavor, I use the most current and widely-used definition of the day.

 

[DNS]

No.

I'm not military or LEO. My job is to use only the necessary force to stop the threat, i'm not judge, jury and executioner. If a second follow up is needed so be it.

 

[rugerdude]

Yes, always. In the sense that I establish a natural point of aim with my entire body and fire the second round as soon as I'm aware of the front sight coming back down into the intended target area. I don't attempt to fire the second round as fast as I possibly can though.

With my .380 CC pistol I actually train doing triples, usually while moving backwards as fast as I can while maintaining all shots on targets. Also sometimes after I have physically pushed myself away from the target with my support hand.

Also, some terminology that enhances the distinction between the possible meanings of "double tap"
-Controlled pair: Two shots with two sight pictures, typically the slower of the two.

-Hammer pair: Two shots fired from the original sight picture, the goal is to get the second shot off as fast as possible and this can still be accurate depending on the skill of the shooter and the range involved.

 

[Bobson]

2 in chest,1 in head.

The Mozambique drill. Yes, I do practice it.

I'm not military or LEO. My job is to use only the necessary force to stop the threat

The key in any use of deadly force - whether you're an LEO or an employee at Sunglass Hut - is the ability to clearly explain your purpose, and you nailed it perfectly - "My goal was to stop the threat." It doesn't matter if you're John Smith, McDonald's employee, or John Smith, FBI Agent. Your job is always to use "only the necessary force to stop the threat."

Deadly force is deadly force. Placing one shot from a gun into the chest cavity of a madman isn't a lesser degree of deadly force than placing two shots into his chest, and one into his head. Ironically, I can tell you for certain that if you were to ever use a gun and aim for an arm or leg "because you didn't want to kill him," you would probably face greater penalties than if you had aimed center-mass. The point is, a firearm is always considered to be deadly force. If you need to use it, it's because you need to use deadly force. Choosing not to fire a second shot because it may not be necessary just doesn't make sense, from either a tactical or a legal perspective.

I'm not trying to persuade you to start training for headshots; I just wanted to point out that your logic is flawed, and it isn't going to help you out in court, should that day ever come.

 

[9mmepiphany]

9mmE, I think it's safe to assume that he means two shots fired as accurately and rapidly as possible. Unless somebody explicitly says they are using the word in it's original flavor, I use the most current and widely-used definition of the day.

Part of the point is that the word is being misused...it is much like the use of the word clip, when you mean magazine...because Double Tap has such a specific meaning; and there are a lot of people who believe that the original is actually possible.

If we're going to go with current and widely used, the term that should be used is Controlled Pair or Hammer (Pair)...which means that you acquire a sight picture, press the trigger, allow the gun to lift and return, acquire a second sight picture and press the trigger a second time.

It takes less time to do, than to type.

I just attended a class where we were drawing (reacting to a turning target), moving and placing 2 shots COM in .7 sec. At 3 yards, the shots were a couple of inches apart...this was shooting a DA/SA SIG 220. The guy next to me shooting revolver, had his shots almost touching

 

[Lex Luthier]

I drill with singles, doubles and triples. I figure if it's a big BG, three will do the trick. The extra noise will probably not be wasted on any aggressor either.

 

[WoodchuckAssassin]

While I only make it to the range once a month (or even less), I do practice double-taps when I go. I'm not accomplished enough to be accurate with the "2 chest, 1 head" drill, but some more practice would solve that.

As a side note, I only practice double taps with my 1911, not with my revolvers.

 

[md2lgyk]

When I was in the Air Force, I was on the base shooting team and shot a lot of combat matches. There was a stage called the Anti-Body-Armor Drill. Basically the same thing as the Mozambique Drill. It was fired from 7 yards in something like 4 seconds. If you missed the head shot, the other two didn't count.

 

[gym]

I use the staging of the trigger and the second shot is fired so fast that it may sometimes sound like one round to the untrained ear, "probably not to a gun person', But allowing the trigger to come forward to it's reset position and firing a second time, usually puts a second round an inch or two away from the first with practice.
It can be done with the proper equipment, and a heavy gun with low recoil and a good trigger. It really can't be done with many of the subcompacts on the market unless they have a srt type trigger. i911's are usually good for this if they are a good quality steel gun with a 4 or 5 lb trigger and a short reset.
the function depends on retarding the muzzle from flying up prior to the second round being expelled. Some guns are impossible to tap like this.
Give it a try if you haven't, it is also fun to master the sequences, a third round may be necessary or perhaps more depending on the situation and multiple attackers, for example I would not double on 2 or 3 shooters unless I had hit all my targets and was following up, and was still breathing.
I also at 65 tend to shy away from a head shot unless I was confident that I would not miss, "which on a moving target is hard enough. But that is one way to end things fast, and 20 yrs ago, I would have been more likely to say I would go for the shot.

 

[stumpers]

I guess I prefer what is termed "controlled pairs" - two rounds as fast as two sight pictures allow.

One sight picture and two shots may work great at 5 yards, but your second round at 15 or 20 yards may be WAY off.

 

[Fred Fuller]

As with so many questions, my answer has to be "It depends."

I practice all manner of things, but since I carry a J frame, ammunition management is a consideration I can't ignore. Shot placement is a major consideration for me, though I doubt I will ever be as good at it as I would like to be. As with most gunfight problems, I have the rest of my life to get it right. How long that will be depends on how well I do at it, if it ever comes up.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Okay, terms that I hear used interchangeably that actually have different meanings. I practice controlled pairs (two shots, quickly, but each with a sight picture of their own), hammered pairs (2 shots, quickly, fired after only acquiring the first sight picture). I also practice failure to stop drills, malfunction drills (more important than the others), etc. And then I practice all of these drills with multiple targets present and from different positions. Firing from retention, firing weak handed, heck even firing with your back on the ground. Everything is important.

 

[armoredman]

Yes, I often practice using controlled pairs, especially practicing transition from DA to SA. Watch that most recent video of the assailant with the AKM clone getting shot by two deputies, and see how many puffs of dust you can see fly up from his clothing as he takes hits...and keeps firing.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Nope. I had in the past but was unhappy with the reflexive-muscle-memory ingrained desire to always go for the second pull even in totally inappropriate scenarios.

Since then, I'd rather make the concerted decision to pull twice than go out of my way to interrupt an otherwise reflexive drive to "double tap".

Another point against it was in going to a school in the Army and finding "double tapping" leaves one with only 3 firing sequences outa a GI 1911.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

There are times that I practice pulling the trigger as fast as possible for 2, or 3 or 4 or 5 shots.
Sometimes I practice dumping the whole magazine--10 rounds now that I have retired--as fast as possible.
As long as I am getting fist sized groups at close range then I am content.
This is my point shooting standard.
Other times I practice shooting as fast as possible while focusing on the front sight--be it bursts or 2, 3, 4 or whatever.
Other times I practice precision shooting at ranges from 3-25 yards--both in a stance and from behind cover.
Other times I practice in low light both with and without a flashlight.
I believe one should master all of these methods to be, as well as can be expected, prepared for any situation.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It can be done with the proper equipment, and a heavy gun with low recoil and a good trigger. It really can't be done with many of the subcompacts on the market unless they have a srt type trigger. i911's are usually good for this if they are a good quality steel gun with a 4 or 5 lb trigger and a short reset.

Well, it does require a different trigger management technique, but I can shoot Controlled Pairs with a polymer Kahr CW9, which is about the size of a Walther PP, has a light weight frame and a DAO trigger. Weight of the gun, trigger weight and reset length have very little effect on the ability to shoot quickly

the function depends on retarding the muzzle from flying up prior to the second round being expelled. Some guns are impossible to tap like this.

All guns are impossible to shoot like this...this was the premise of the original description of the Double Tap that I mentioned in post #3. It is physically impossible to fire a second shot prior to or during muzzle lift from the first...as the second round chambers on the way down from the initial muzzle lift

for example I would not double on 2 or 3 shooters unless I had hit all my targets and was following up, and was still breathing.

This leads us to the philosophical differences between tactical sequence and tactical priority in distributing shoots among multiple assailants. Does everyone get one before anyone gets a second (faith in accuracy and shot placement/effectiveness) or does everyone get two before moving on (taking each out in turn, based on threat level)

 

[gym]

Depending on the circumstance, in general, 1 for each and 2 for the last, then going back to clean up what needs to be done. The muzzle may be climbing but you can still place 2 rounds on target if you practice a couple thousand times.
I know from your posts that we spoke about the drill before when "Mas" sent out an email covering the 1,2, 3,- 3,2,1, drill, I know there is a name for it, but it escapes me at the moment. It just makes more sense to do it that way. putting down the first of 3 attackers first, moving to the second, and then using two on the third who has had the most time to shoot back by then.
Of course it's all subjective as all encounters are different, but it still is something to think about.
Unfortunately there is no ironclad recipe for making sure anyone prevails in a gunfight. It's just good to practice different things as the can be useful if they fit into the parameters of the situation you find yourself in.
I am always learning, and will try different things to see what woks best for me.
The Double Tap seems to be something that I have found to work for me in some kinds of situations and would not hesitate to use it if need be.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I'm of the group that finishes a threat before moving onto the next; unless another threat emerges as a greater danger. I don't want to hit each threat once, and then finish with the last only to have the first one back shooting at me. Determine which is the greater threat, completely eliminate it, and then move on. Putting two shots on target quickly does not take much more time at all than one, and remember, one is none, two is one, and three is better.

Handguns do not have much power, I really do not trust one shot to stop a threat, and I will never advocate for someone else to, either. However, that is your choice. If someone thinks that they don't have time to hit each target twice before transitioning, then my opinion is that they need more training. The best way to get better at engaging multiple targets quickly is to practice your transitions. You can make up much more time in your transitions than you can from only shooting a threat once and moving on.

 

[Old_Gun_Hand]

No. It trains you to only shoot twice and then look which is bad. Having more than a passing knowledge of shooting in anger, I know that it is best to keep shooting until there is nothing standing to shoot at. If you train to shoot only twice and then pause to assess, you are training offensively and not defensively. If you are spec ops and breaking into a room filled with hostiles it is ok to double tap each and repeat as necessary but in a one to one encounter there is no reason to do that. You just keep shooting until your opponent is down for the count. Everyone says shoot to stop. Shooting twice and then wasting time to decide if you need to shoot two more times is not the best thing to do. Then again neither is aimed fire as most will tend to not use their sights in a real gun fight. Point shooting is the way to go and the way you will probably go. Always remember that being a good shooter at the range has no bearing on how good you are as a defensive shooter. Shooting double or triple taps is not a substitute for real training.

 

[CoRoMo]

...it is best to keep shooting until there is nothing standing to shoot at. If you train to shoot only twice and then pause to assess, you are training offensively and not defensively.

Are you saying that 'to keep shooting until there is nothing standing to shoot at', is defensive shooting and not offensive shooting?