Do You Keep Records of Private Sales?

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Nope.
I'm with AirForceShooter. I won't do it on either side.

You want paperwork, buy it from somebody else. If you're selling and you want paperwork/copies of DL or CHL then you can sell it to somebody else.

I follow the law. If I want the hassle of all that, I'll go to a gun store.
 
Nope.
I'm with AirForceShooter. I won't do it on either side.

You want paperwork, buy it from somebody else. If you're selling and you want paperwork/copies of DL or CHL then you can sell it to somebody else.

I follow the law. If I want the hassle of all that, I'll go to a gun store.
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I can respect that approach. It is not mine but everyone should be free to conduct business as they see fit.
 
I sort of keep paperwork. I keep a record of all firearms I have ever bought. Make, model, serial number, date bought, from where etc. For firearms I have sold I put the date sold and for how much. That is it. No photo copy of the ID, no name, no address. Not legally required. The date and price are for me. Old and senile me will have a memory one day of "Didn't I have a Taurus?" Oh yeah I sold it on so and so. If by rare chance said sold firearm is used in a crime, "Oh yeah I sold it on day so and so for X amount" Good luck, there is the door.
 
Sure I do. I require a bill of sale, signed by at least six witnesses who also declare that the buyer attends Sunday School every Sunday and church services not less than four times a week. Then we all go to the police station and have the Chief also sign guaranteeing the gun has never been stolen nor used in any crime anywhere at any time. :neener:

Really, I have never received not given a bill of sale for anything that I have ever bought or sold with the exception of automobiles, and that only because the state requires the payment of tax on the transfer. Why would I do otherwise?

BTW I sold three guns at the local gun show two weeks ago and all I can tell you about the buyers is that they very briefly displayed a driver's license or CHL from here to prove residency. That's it. No names, no paperwork, nuttin' else.
 
VAgunner said:
So you have one second hand account from a local LEO you know and that was enough for you to make what declarative statement about the negative repercussions of a bill of sale? I can see where you are coming from but I do not think you have demonstrated that your assertions are grounded in facts. In the case you have sort of sighted you state that the seller would have not had any issues without the bill of sale but that may or may not have been true. You assume that the LEO would not have been able to determine who sold the gun to the prohibited person. You, IMHO incorrectly assume that would be the only way to ascertain who sold the gun to the BG.

Were exact details of the single case you are siting disclosed to you. Did the bill of sale state that the buyer asserted that he/she was not a prohibited person? If so what was the verbiage? If so and you are using it for the justification of your assertions please elaborate further. You elude to knowing more but without further disclosure your statements lack gravitas. IMHO you are taking a very specific example and applying it to the general. All poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles.

As for your daughters shotgun you should proceed as you see fit. It really has no relevance to my inquiry. It is a red herring.
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I don't know all of the details of the case, but I do know some. The reason for the original conversation was because of one of the (plethora of) earlier threads here on THR on the same subject. I asked him specifically about bills-of-sale in investigations and he gave me this case as an example. The case involved a couple of guns found during a separate investigation. Both guns were FTF purchases. One was old enough that they didn't even bother trying to figure out where it came from. The other one was a small handgun and the manufacturer gave them the info on the distributor who gave them the name of the selling FFL. The FFL provided the info on the person who they sold it to.

From there, they went to the original buyer and he produced a bill of sale saying he no longer owned the gun. The BOS showed that he indeed sold it to a prohibited person and that's when things got complicated. The seller ended up needing a lawyer's help to sort things out. I don't know the exact contents of the BOS other than it was a typical gun BOS which almost always include the "You're not a prohibited person, are you?" questions. I also don't know if the seller said something stupid or if anything else was involved to cause the increased scrutiny.

The detective said unequivocally that if the seller had stated that he had sold the gun to a person he verified was a Utah resident and didn't have any reason to believe that he was a prohibited person, they would have left it at that because they didn't have anything linking him directly to the person who ended up with the gun. The assumption was that the gun has probably changed hands several times after the original buyer sold it. It was the BOS that stated specifically that he sold the gun to a person who was prohibited that caused the problems. The question then became whether he did it knowingly or unknowingly.

I asked him why someone would keep a bill of sale showing them selling to a prohibited person if they knew the buyer was prohibited. His answer? To go watch a couple of hours of "Cops", paying attention to the mentality of the criminals, and I'll have the answer. Basically, these are the same people who call the police when someone steals the car that they stole earlier.

Matt
 
No. I also won't buy one from someone who requires me to fill out a bill of sale. You can see my ID if you want, but you can't write down my info. When asked if I am a prohibited person I show my police ID (not my badge, my ID) or my carry permit. That should be good enough for anyone. If it's not, I walk away. There's no reason for a stranger to have my name, address and driver license number.
 
Ranger Roberts said:
No. I also won't buy one from someone who requires me to fill out a bill of sale. You can see my ID if you want, but you can't write down my info. When asked if I am a prohibited person I show my police ID (not my badge, my ID) or my carry permit. That should be good enough for anyone. If it's not, I walk away. There's no reason for a stranger to have my name, address and driver license number.
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I must be very trusting. The first time I sold a handgun I said there would be a bill of sale, ID check, and see a carry permit. All that went out the window as I didn't have a Bill of sale printed out. Didn't see prison ink on the guy, knowing the difference. Saw in state FOP plates on the vehicle and NRA stickers on the back window of the truck with a member number. Seemed good enough for me and made the sale.
 
If the cops are coming to me asking about a gun then clearly a crime has been committed.

"We found this gun beside a dead guy"

"Well, according to my records, I sold the gun to Joe Blow back in 2011.

"Joe Blow? Isn't that the victim's ex-husband? Thanks for your cooperation sir"

Having a receipt doesn't necessarily mean anything, but being able to give them a name that turns out to be related without knowing the details of the case goes a long way.

Just for clarity: I don't get a receipt, I do ask to see a valid KY ID bearing their name. I'm not sure if that makes me less of an enemy of freedom or not.
 
Elkins45 said:
If the cops are coming to me asking about a gun then clearly a crime has been committed.
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Not necessarily. But definitely possible. Maybe even probable. But maybe not.

Elkins45 said:
"We found this gun beside a dead guy"

"Well, according to my records, I sold the gun to Joe Blow back in 2011.

"Joe Blow? Isn't that the victim's ex-husband? Thanks for your cooperation sir"

Having a receipt doesn't necessarily mean anything, but being able to give them a name that turns out to be related without knowing the details of the case goes a long way.

Just for clarity: I don't get a receipt, I do ask to see a valid KY ID bearing their name. I'm not sure if that makes me less of an enemy of freedom or not.
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It probably can. That would make sense.

If the person who committed the crime and left the gun at the scene with the serial numbers intact is the same person you gave/sold it to.

Hopefully that guy doesn't catch wind that you dropped a dime on him and take some revenge before LE catches up with him though.

I mean, while we're playing hypotheticals, we might as well be thorough.
 
I have records and signed a Bill of Sale for every gun I have bought or sold for the last 50 years. That doesn't mean anyone but me will ever see them, that just means they exist.
 
Warp said:
Hopefully that guy doesn't catch wind that you dropped a dime on him and take some revenge before LE catches up with him though.

I mean, while we're playing hypotheticals, we might as well be thorough.
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Hypothetically that guy doesn't know my name. Besides, he doesn't have his gun anymore. :D
 
I sold an LCP years ago. I had the guy sign a pre-written bill of sale and he filled it in with his CCW.

It was the first private sale I ever did and I wasn't sure what needed for documentation.

Learned a lot just reading this thread.
 
The last gun I bought, there was a bill of sale involved. It did irk me that there was, because I'm not keen on giving out my private info for some stranger to keep in his records.

However, I went ahead with it because:

1) He was a fellow Navy Officer, so I figured I could trust him
2) I was getting a screaming deal

I have yet to sell any of my guns, but, if I do, all I want to see is proof of residency/age. I wont do a bill of sale or any other such nonsense, since at that point I'm complying with the law.

Thanks though, for reminding me to get around to putting together a document that lists what guns I have. I've been meaning to do that.
 
In MI if it's a handgun you have to. We have pistol registration. If the purchaser has a CPL we can download the form and we have to keep one copy for our records, and it is the buyers requirement to file a copy with the local police. If they don't have a CPL they have to go to there local police department and pull a notarized purchase permit (basically a NICS check), and they have to return a copy with the information to their local PD. I'm against the registration having said that personal firearms transactions are the only sales I'm leery of.

I insist on meeting in a public well lit area. And personally I like some kind of record of sale. It certainly protects me as a seller from prosecution later. I also am not interested in selling firearms to criminals, so the idea that there is some level of background check doesn't bother me. On a long gun we aren't required by the state, but I still look at the drivers license, write down the address, and have the purchaser sign a bill of sale. And I leave the same info with the purchaser, most want some protection from an accusation against buying stolen property.
 
I have yet to sell a gun so no problems there. I have shown ID to purchase a gun in a FTF transaction but I am not too concerned about a bill of sale as I don't intend to sell or otherwise give the government information on what I own.
 
From a legal standpoint a buyer is taking a much higher risk in purchasing than a seller. A bill of sale may be helpful to the buyer at some point.

As a seller, unless it's required by law I don't see how keeping records protects me from anything.
 
plexreticle said:
From a legal standpoint a buyer is taking a much higher risk in purchasing than a seller. A bill of sale may be helpful to the buyer at some point.

As a seller, unless it's required by law I don't see how keeping records protects me from anything.
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I suppose the buyer is the one that doesn't know if the firearm was stolen or reported stolen at some point.
 
I'm not going to quote morcey2's story that he is relating concerning what the cop told him as it makes the post too long. There has to be a lot more to it than just having a BOS to a prohibited person. If as stated the BOS may have had the question in it asking if the buyer was a prohibited person, and the buyer signed that he wasn't, how does that violate any existing federal law?

Taken from the Frequently Asked Questions to the ATF: A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

There is no requirement that a seller run a background check, only that you "KNOWINGLY" do not sell to a prohibited person. You are also required to not sell a handgun to a non-resident and that the person be 21 years of age. You would have to personally know that the buyer is a prohibited person. I would like to see a prosecutor that could convince a jury you knowingly, unknowingly (hope that makes sense) sold a hand gun to a prohibited person. A first year defense lawyer would have no problem beating that charge but I seriously doubt a district attorney would even let that case come to trial. I believe that the seller would have excellent grounds for a lawsuit against the government.

Now if this seller has a shady past and possible suspicion of selling guns to prohibited persons then I can see the police putting pressure on him hoping for a confession. Even with a shady past the prosecutor would still have to prove the seller knowingly sold to a prohibited person, but without a confession from the seller or the buyer, lotsa luck! Even if the BOS doesn't have the question about being a prohibited person, no federal law has been broken.
 
I don't keep records of private sales, even those that I bought with a 4473. There's no requirement for me to do so. I've only sold four guns though in my whole life. Kept the rest.
 
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