NavyLCDR
member
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
Your recollection of firearms laws is completely backwards. It is legal for an FFL to sell a rifle or shotgun to a resident of a different state, but not for a private party.
Bill of sale info?
- Thread starter Glock19Fan
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
Your recollection of firearms laws is completely backwards. It is legal for an FFL to sell a rifle or shotgun to a resident of a different state, but not for a private party.
JohnBT
Member
"but not for a private party."
You didn't mean that, did you? A private party can sell out of state by involving an FFL. There's no flat prohibition.
You didn't mean that, did you? A private party can sell out of state by involving an FFL. There's no flat prohibition.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
Your recollection of firearms laws is completely backwards. It is legal for an FFL to sell a rifle or shotgun to a resident of a different state, but not for a private party.
My bad on the long guns, been a long time.
As to the bill of sale thing? Nope, I'll run with what's legal and that is about it.
Ron
NavyLCDR
member
I meant exactly what I posted. Notice the word I highlighted in the exact quote of Federal law:
18 USC 922 (a)(5):
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides;
Yes. Of course. We all know that you can transfer a firearm to another state by *shipping it to an FFL*
But we aren't talking about going through FFL's here. We are talking about private sales between private individuals, not involving an FFL.
As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, it is illegal to have the transfer take place across state lines.
This VVV
^^^ Is very incorrect.
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NavyLCDR
member
There is no Federal requirement to use an FFL on both ends. If it is going out-of-state only the buyer needs the services of an FFL...not the seller.
Ah yes, that is correct.
Not sure how I slipped on that...I've shipped a gun out of state to an FFL personally, lol
medalguy
Member
I've bought, and sold, quite a few firearms over the years in private sales. I have never given, nor asked for, a BOS. Ever. If a seller wanted my personal information, he can pound sand. Nor do I want the personal information on any buyer I may be involved with. A private sale is just that to me-- a private sale. No one else is involved. My state law does not require me to obtain any personal information nor give any in a private sale, just to not have any reason to believe the buyer is a prohibited person.
So to revisit another response, say I buy a gun and the seller comes up later and says I owe him more money. If he doesn't have my name and address, how is he going to say I owe him any more money?
So to revisit another response, say I buy a gun and the seller comes up later and says I owe him more money. If he doesn't have my name and address, how is he going to say I owe him any more money?
NavyLCDR
member
Imagine how many bills of sales there would be if everything that was sold at garage sales and want ads (like craigslist) had a bill of sale for it. Sometimes gun owners are the worst at treating guns as "special" objects that require more restrictions than any other object and then in the same breath claim that the gun is only a tool (which it is only a tool).
jerkface11
Member
I'm not sure some of these guys know how a bill of sale works. Everytime I've bought something that required one I kept it not the seller.
USAF_Vet
Member
With the first (and only) pistol I sold, I made up a bill of sale (only because of Michigan handgun registration). A day or so later, I stopped by the local sheriff's department on an unrelated matter, and still had the BOS in my jacket pocket. I asked if the BOS was any sort of protection in the event the buyer did not file the Michigan record of sale to register the sold handgun. My copy of the received red of sale was stapled to the bill of sale. I was told, flat out, the onus for the registration was solely on the buyer of the gun, but my bill of sale was worthless. Only my part of the record of sale would have any worth, and since even those can be printed off the internet, they don't particularly mean much. So I'm left, possibly, with useless records and a Hi Point I no longer own registered to my name.
Armed with that info, I decided I would never sell a handgun FTF again.
Long guns (that don't require registration) I will buy and sell all day long without anything but a glace at their state issued ID, and an assurance on their part they are not restricted.
Armed with that info, I decided I would never sell a handgun FTF again.
Long guns (that don't require registration) I will buy and sell all day long without anything but a glace at their state issued ID, and an assurance on their part they are not restricted.
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slumlord44
Member
So if it illegal to sell a gun to a resident of another state, is it legal to buy a gun from a resident of another state?
Glock19Fan
Member
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Yes. Transactions cannot cross state lines without a transfer through an FFL. It is only legal to do private transactions FTF with a resident of your own state.
12131
Member
Maybe M2Carbine will come back and tell you exactly what happened to him, with a gun he sold to someone, which eventually was used in a crime. The police traced it back to him as the original owner. He told them he sold it a while ago. Police, "OK, have a nice day".
He may or may not come back. But, this is the story I read from him, every single time the subject of a BOS came up. I respect the man, and have no reason to doubt his story.
And, please stop with the generalization that the police will confiscate all your weapons during their investigation. If you don't know the facts of a case, don't leap to conclusion.
Glock19Fan
Member
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I don't doubt his story at all. He is a very respectable member and I trust everything he says 100%. However, if he was local (not 1400 miles away) then things may have been completely different. In my state the authorities, even with a simple suspicion, would have detained him as well has his property and firearms without a conviction or anything. In my state, if you are suspected of drug trafficking or any crime related to firearms then all your possessions, firearms and personal property included, can be confiscated for one reason or another.
Like I said, almost every murder suspects initial defense is that the weapon used in the crime tied to them was sold or stolen. Law enforcement wouldn't look at a firearm enthusiast any different. Just because you are an active member on TheHighRoad.com doesn't sway their investigation one bit. If you cant prove to them without a doubt that the firearm was legally sold to the other party, then you will still be under investigation. Its nothing special, just SOP.
Like I said, I don't normally make a BOS but it is wise to keep track of your sales and even who you sale to. Whether or not it holds any legal defense doesn't matter. Otherwise, if the other party decides to make an unwise decision with their firearm then you may come up on the list of people to interrogate. You may not be convicted, but you could easily be dragged through the legal BS that you certainly want no part of.
Like I said, almost every murder suspects initial defense is that the weapon used in the crime tied to them was sold or stolen. Law enforcement wouldn't look at a firearm enthusiast any different. Just because you are an active member on TheHighRoad.com doesn't sway their investigation one bit. If you cant prove to them without a doubt that the firearm was legally sold to the other party, then you will still be under investigation. Its nothing special, just SOP.
Like I said, I don't normally make a BOS but it is wise to keep track of your sales and even who you sale to. Whether or not it holds any legal defense doesn't matter. Otherwise, if the other party decides to make an unwise decision with their firearm then you may come up on the list of people to interrogate. You may not be convicted, but you could easily be dragged through the legal BS that you certainly want no part of.
12131
Member
^^^ . I don't a BOS, either, but, if you want one, no big deal to me. Name, date, price. That's it. You flash me your DL and CHL, and I do the same with mine. No copying down of personal info.
Remember, you don't need to have a BOS to have track of the transaction. All the emails and text messages are your records of the transaction.
Remember, you don't need to have a BOS to have track of the transaction. All the emails and text messages are your records of the transaction.
Glock19Fan
Member
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I agree completely, but there have been times where after a few years I wonder what happened to a specific firearm. When I draw a blank, the records help to keep a peace of mind. Its not always for legal reasons, but for personal as well.
How in the world do you come up with selling a gun to someone without a CCL compromises your freedom? Is that the law in Texas?
This.
Glock19Fan
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2004
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I think it has more to do with the rumors and "knowledge" that they gather on other forums and gun shows. Very few people realistically know the laws, especially in their own state.
However, some are just over cautious, and that's fine with me. They are the same ones that like their steak well done and want receipts with a purchase of a bag of M&Ms.
However, some are just over cautious, and that's fine with me. They are the same ones that like their steak well done and want receipts with a purchase of a bag of M&Ms.
I believe, and I'm not a lawyer, that technically it isn't illegal to buy or sell across state lines. It is illegal to transfer the firearm across state lines. Buy, sell, loan, lease, lend, gift, win, whatever, doesn't matter...if it transfers across state lines, an FFL needs to be involved at the receiver's end for sure.
jerkface11
Member
The last time I checked it was legal to sell a long gun to someone from an adjacent state. Handguns must go thru a dealer for out of state though.
NavyLCDR
member
When was the last time you checked? When the gun control act was passed in 1968 it became illegal to sell a long gun (as well as handguns) FTF to anyone who did not reside in the same state as the seller without an FFL transfer. There was an exception in the 1968 GCA for long gun sales to adjacent state residents only made by FFLs only - and then only if the laws of both states involved specifically allowed it.
In 1986 there was an amendment to the GCA of 1968 which did away with the adjacent state limitation and also did away with the requirement that state law specifically allow it. Since 1986 it has been legal for an FFL to sell a long gun to a resident of any state so long as the state laws of both states involved are followed. However, it remains illegal for a FTF sale across any state lines to occur, without an FFL transfer.
Maybe you should check on the laws a little bit more often there, jerkface11 - you are at least 28 years behind.
The August 2004 ATF Newsletter to FFLs explains this quite well:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf
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