Bill of sale info?

[NavyLCDR]

So if it illegal to sell a gun to a resident of another state, is it legal to buy a gun from a resident of another state?

18 USC 922 (a)(3):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

 

[NavyLCDR]

Oh good grief!

In summary:

1. A bill of sale is nothing more than a receipt. The seller can keep one copy signed by the buyer which states that the buyer received the item as promised. The buyer can keep one copy signed by the seller which states that the seller received full payment for the item sold. That's it. Whatever information anyone wants to include - or is not willing to include is up to them.

2. It is illegal for any firearm to be sold, transferred, given away, or traded across any state line without an FFL doing the transfer. 18 USC 922(a)(5) applies to the seller/giver, 18 USC 922(a)(3) applies to the recipient. This includes any firearm, adjacent states, and family members. The only exception is when someone dies and their heirs are receiving the firearms. (and a temporary exception for some loans). That has been the law since 1968.

3. FFLs can transfer shotguns and rifles to residents of any state - so long as neither the laws of the FFL or the recipient of the shotgun or rifle are not violated. That has been the law since 1986 when the requirement for the states to be adjacent to each other went away.

4. FFLs can transfer firearms other than rifles and shotguns only to residents of the same state the FFL is licensed to do business in, that has been the law since 1968.

5. The limitations in 3. and 4. above do not apply to firearms (and replacement firearms) that are returned to the original owner by an FFL which were delivered to an FFL solely for the purpose of customization or repair.

 

[NoVA Shooter]

I've bought, and sold, quite a few firearms over the years in private sales. I have never given, nor asked for, a BOS. Ever. If a seller wanted my personal information, he can pound sand. Nor do I want the personal information on any buyer I may be involved with. A private sale is just that to me-- a private sale. No one else is involved. My state law does not require me to obtain any personal information nor give any in a private sale, just to not have any reason to believe the buyer is a prohibited person.

IMO, the purpose of a BOS has nothing to do with the government, legality, or having a paper trail. It only has to do with protecting me if a civil dispute were to occur.

If I have a gun you want, you'll need to provide me your signature on a BOS that includes the date, price paid in full, as-is statement, and S/N. If you feel your anonymity (and let's be real, you're already showing me your DL to prove residency, so anonymity is a facade) is worth more than the gun, I have no problem with that and you're free to move on. I'm not going to get upset, tell you to pound sand or think anything of it. There are plenty of things I don't do myself due to the terms of the agreement being unacceptable.

So to revisit another response, say I buy a gun and the seller comes up later and says I owe him more money. If he doesn't have my name and address, how is he going to say I owe him any more money?

As I've said before, someone intent on committing a fraud can find out who you are very easily. Let's not forget, unless this was a spur of the moment meeting (like at a gun show), you most likely had to have some sort of contact with the other person. Not too hard to find someone when you've exchanged digital data (phone number, email address, etc).

 

[oneounceload]

s I've said before, someone intent on committing a fraud can find out who you are very easily. Let's not forget, unless this was a spur of the moment meeting (like at a gun show), you most likely had to have some sort of contact with the other person. Not too hard to find someone when you've exchanged digital data (phone number, email address, etc).

And somewhere in that digital data will be the price previously agreed upon, so the BOS does nothing in that regard

 

[dogtown tom]

Some of the advice in this thread would lead to someone committing a federal crime fo

The ignorance of Federal gun laws in this thread is appalling.:banghead:

If you call yourself an advocate of the Second Amendment (as I hope every member of this forum is) you need to educate yourself before posting on gun forums or debating those who aren't "gun friendly". Being three decades behind is inexcusable.

If you are completely and wholly ignorant of Federal gun laws.........why on God's green earth are you posting in this thread? Guns are serious business, going to prison is serious business, exhausting your savings to pay your lawyers to keep you out of jail is serious business............

We all get a laugh when Diane Feinstein uses the term "clip" or Joe Biden claims racking a shotgun will cause burglars to flee. We love to laugh at some of the claims of the Brady Campaign, Mayor Bloomberg or Eric Holder in regards to firearm violence.

But its simply not funny when "gun guys" don't know a damn thing about FEDERAL laws that can affect their ability to own or possess a firearm.

There are three major Federal gun laws:
1934 National Firearms Act
1968 Gun Control Act
1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act

Claiming its "TLDR" (Too Long Didn't Read) is a cop out at the least, stupid at most.

Claiming its "too difficult to understand legalese" is a cop out....the ATF FAQ's are written in easy to understand "short answer" format.

Spend twenty minutes at atf.gov reading their FAQ's should be the minimum before you engage in conversation with your wife or family.


There are dozens of threads on THR where a new member will ask "How do I ____" or "Can I do _________ to my gun" or the like. Invariably someone will give advice that if followed would result in a violation of Federal law.

 

[NoVA Shooter]

And somewhere in that digital data will be the price previously agreed upon, so the BOS does nothing in that regard

And if that is good enough for you, I'm not going to argue. However, it's not for me. An email correspondence where two parties agree on a set price in no ways indicates that that price was paid when money changed hands. Nor does it even indicate the exchange was even made. A BOS does.

I honestly don't see why people are denying that there is value in a BOS. A BOS may not be needed or wanted (or even vilified as some stepping stone to government tracking), but whether you like them or not, they do have a practical value. You may find that value to be so small that it doesn't warrant its use, or that the downside of a BOS outweighs its usefulness, but that's a personal choice.

 

[Warp]

And if that is good enough for you, I'm not going to argue. However, it's not for me. An email correspondence where two parties agree on a set price in no ways indicates that that price was paid when money changed hands. Nor does it even indicate the exchange was even made. A BOS does.

I believe it does indicate that that price was paid. It doesn't guarantee it, of course, but it certainly indicates it.

Also, I believe the fact that the buyer later has possession of the precise item that was the subject of that exchange indicates that the exchange was made.

I honestly don't see why people are denying that there is value in a BOS. A BOS may not be needed or wanted (or even vilified as some stepping stone to government tracking), but whether you like them or not, they do have a practical value. You may find that value to be so small that it doesn't warrant its use, or that the downside of a BOS outweighs its usefulness, but that's a personal choice.

A bill of sale does not guarantee that the exchange was made, or that the $ amount on it is what was paid. Forging an unofficial non-notarized document that was allegedly part of a private transaction between only two people is probably not terribly difficult. So the other guy showed you his ID...hence how you got its info...but you backed out of the transaction and then forged a bill of sale.

 

[12131]

Final email exchanges:

S: Was nice meeting you today, Joe. Hope you enjoy the pistol.
B: Appreciate the deal, Bill.




Seriously, guys. If you want to do the BOS to make yourself feel better, fine. If you don't, fine, too.

 

[Bentonville]

Several years ago I got a call from a detective in L.A., Ca. I live in NC. He was working on a case involving a pistol with a serial number linking the gun to me. He was questioning if I had sold the gun or had not reported it stolen at some point. I had indeed purchased the pistol several years before. The gun had a problem caused by a manufacturing defect and I returned the gun to the manufacturer. I was sent a brand new gun. He had no record that I had returned the gun or had received a new pistol. I was asked to send a copy of any paperwork from the company proving I had returned the gun. I had kept the invoice with no charge from the factory that listed the original gun and the one that replaced it. After faxing this paper, the detective seemed grateful and I never heard from him again. Before cooperating, I called the number to the headquarters which was given me by the detective to verify his name and position. I guess I could have refused to cooperate but I could have received some sort of subpoena later, who knows. The point is, having some type of paper trail can be useful when you least expect it.
This is my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[W.E.G.]

I've had one or two guys ask for a bill of sale.

They've all been straight up seeming guys, so I gave them a piece of paper that described the gun, and which I signed.

Otherwise, I just ask to see a driver's license for proof of residency.

I don't ask for a bill of sale myself.

Maybe if I was buying a $10,000 gun (like that's ever gonna happen), I might feel differently about it.

You can always cook up some scenario for why you should or shouldn't do something.
I don't live my life that way.

 

[JohnBT]

Do some of y'all get bills of sale for chain saws and circular saws and nail guns and other sharp pointy things?

I don't know anybody that's bothered with a bill of sale for a firearm in the past - jeez I'm old - 55-plus years. There's no point to it. My father was a state trooper and his cousin was the county sheriff and they didn't bother with anything more than a handshake. Anybody can whip up an official bill of sale for anything in a flash.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Do some of y'all get bills of sale for chain saws and circular saws and nail guns and other sharp pointy things?

I don't know anybody that's bothered with a bill of sale for a firearm in the past - jeez I'm old - 55-plus years. There's no point to it. My father was a state trooper and his cousin was the county sheriff and they didn't bother with anything more than a handshake. Anybody can whip up an official bill of sale for anything in a flash.

When I buy a pack of gum at Wal Mart with my debit card I get a "bill of sale" for the transaction.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Bill+of+sale

bill of sale n. a written statement attesting to the transfer (sale) of goods, possessions, or a business to a buyer. It is useful to show that the buyer now has ownership and to detail what was actually purchased. A bill of sale may accompany an agreement which states the agreed-upon terms of sale, including the date of transfer, the price, timing of payment and other provisions.

Then, if a debit of $100.57 shows up on my bank statement, I can submit that "bill of sale" that I received for the purchase of the pack of gum in order to have the $100 erroneously deducted from my account refunded to me.

Now, I won't allow a copy of my driver's license or my CPL, or my date of birth, or any of that extra information to be recorded to buy a pack of gum from Wal Mart, nor will I allow it to be recorded for a private, FTF transaction to purchase/sell a firearm. But, I have no problem with the same information being recorded for a pack of gum or for a firearm - name of buyer and seller, what was sold, how much was paid for it, and the date of the transaction - the same information that is on the receipt I get from Wal Mart when I buy a pack of gum with my debit card.

 

[Zach S]

I did not real all five pages...

I don't require a BOS, but will gladly sign one. When filling the BOS out, I'll provide my full name and city of residence, maybe my phone number.

I've never had anyone ask for a copy of my license, which is a good thing, I wouldn't let them have it anyway.

 

[JohnBT]

"When I buy a pack of gum at Wal Mart with my debit card I get a "bill of sale" for the transaction."

I was addressing the topic of the thread - person-to-person sales.

I'll ask again, when you sell your neighbor or coworker a used chain saw, do you write out a bill of sale? A riding mower? A nail gun? A firearm is no different if the buyer is legal.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

There is no doubt in my mind that what I’m about to post has already been said but here’s my 2 cents. Prior to the new UBC law in Colorado I would write a bill of sale if I sold a gun that says that on this date, at this time, you bought the following weapon from me and that when you did you bought it as is with no warranty. That way if you take it to the range and try to stick a 9x19 round into the LCP I just sold you, you can’t come back on me and say I sold you a defective gun when it blows up in your face.

That said, I’m not going to put any information on there that you could use to ID theft me.

 

[NoVA Shooter]

I was addressing the topic of the thread - person-to-person sales.

I'll ask again, when you sell your neighbor or coworker a used chain saw, do you write out a bill of sale? A riding mower? A nail gun? A firearm is no different if the buyer is legal.

This depends on certain factors. The two biggest ones being closeness to the other person and value of the transaction. A $5 trinket, no. A $200 trinket, probably. My neighbor I've known for a long time, probably not.

I do not get a BOS because it's a gun, I get one to mitigate the risk of a civil dispute. This is true of guns, chainsaws, flying monkeys, or balls of yarn. If that risk is sufficiently mitigated by the fact I know the character of the person I'm dealing with or that the cost of the item makes a dispute unlikely, then a BOS may not be necessary.

 

[hatt]

No bill of sale. I also pass on any deal where the seller is demanding a CCW even though I have one.

 

[dogtown tom]

Not remotely like a FTF gun transaction.

NavyLCDR .....When I buy a pack of gum at Wal Mart with my debit card I get a "bill of sale" for the transaction.

I don't think WalMart calls that a "Bill of Sale", instead they refer to it as a "receipt". Minor difference, but still a difference.

Further, WM gives its customers that receipt because they use a "cash register" and accept several forms of payment. If you paid with cash, WM doesn't demand you sign a document.

Of course the Exit Door Nazi may ask to see your receipt for that gum.

 

[Grayrock]

I had some guns stolen a few years back. I had receipts for some that I had actually purchased from a gunstore. But a couple of them were acquired from individuals with no bill of sale. When I was trying to get an insurance claim they asked for paperwork proving value and ownership before they would settle the claim. I get bills of sale now when I purchase.

 

[TwoEyedJack]

I don't have bills of sale for all my guns. One I have had since age 8, which was more than a few decades ago. What I do have is pictures of all of them and a list of serial numbers in case they get stolen or the house burns down.

 

[Reloadron]

I don't have bills of sale for all my guns. One I have had since age 8, which was more than a few decades ago. What I do have is pictures of all of them and a list of serial numbers in case they get stolen or the house burns down.

Same here. An inventory with pictures, some have original receipts or bill of sale but not all of them.

Ron

 

[pdsmith505]

I have never sold a gun, so I don't have any BOSs from that sort of thing. Even if I do sell one of my guns, I'd check a photo ID for residency and age, take the cash, and hand them the gun. That's it.

OTOH, I have thrown a couple of BOSs in the trash immediately after getting back from a private sale. They've had my name, address, and CCL # on them. While annoying, I don't worry about that too much.

I really don't think they carry any weight whatsoever because there is no way to prove that the buyer or seller are who they say they are on the piece of paper.

Now, perhaps this question has been asked already, but would a BOS have more weight if, say, the sale was conducted and the BOS was then properly notarized?

 

[HexHead]

M2 Carbine- Lets say that you purchased that handgun from a gun store. You sold it to the guy who committed the murder and didn't keep any record of the sale whatsoever. and he disposed of the weapon at the crime scene. Those detectives would be investigating you, and in turn your possessions as well as your weapons would all be confiscated.

All of that is nonsense.

 

[HexHead]

There are plenty of cases where murder suspects claim they sold a gun, traded it off, or had it stolen while being investigated by law enforcement. It does nothing to help their case and they are still prime suspects. A simple BOS could be thrown together real quick and it wouldn't be anything for a murder suspect to do to try avoid charges. This is why I make it clear in emails and text messages what the intent of the transaction is. Because if you cant PROVE that chain of custody, then you can certainly take the fall for it.

Had they been in closer proximity, then M2 could have been a prime suspect in the case. "I sold it to some guy with a DL in a parking lot" is what almost every detective hears and it will not get you out of anything.

I'm sure there was other evidence to make them a suspect other than once owning the firearm.

 

[HexHead]

It is not legal to buy a pistol from a FFL in another state.

Nonsense. You can buy a handgun from a dealer in another state. You just can't take possession of it. The selling dealer can take your money to sell you the gun, and set up a transfer to another dealer in your state. You have to pick it up, after completing the paperwork, in your state.