Do You Keep Records of Private Sales?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Onmilo said:
"For a period of ten years after a record of transfer MUST BE maintained"
It's the law here.
If one of my guns goes to a gun shop, I write the name of the shop & date of sale
If I sell a gun to an individual, I write the FOID (Firearm Owners Identification) number, date it expires and date of sale. That's it.

After ten years that information is purged from my records.
Click to expand...


I forgot to add that you need to be certain of the date of birth of the person you are selling to private party as well.
21 for handguns & 18 for long guns still applies and bare unstocked AR lower frames are considered same as handguns here.
 
Nope. I dont keep a bill of sale.

If I'm sellin, I ask to see an ID and a carry or purchase permit.*

I have no problem showing my ID and permission slip and/or signing a bill of sale, however my name and phone number (by request) are all I'm putting on it.

*Here in NC, "purchase permits" are required for private sales of handguns, however those with CHPs are exempt.
 
This has all been mooted for WA residents due to 594. GRRR>>>>>

Early on, I did record a bill of sale for both parties with declarations/bullet points both were legal and not prohibited, gun was not stolen nor would be reported stolen, no warranties on the gun, etc. It included addresses, DL #, etc.

Now, I've abandoned recording the DL and addresses because I don't feel comfortable with giving mine or possessing someone else's. I do look at it to ensure that the person is a resident, voter (a sign he's not a felon), and his age, picture match, not punched/expired, etc.

My more recent approach was to 1) PDF print screen shot of sale add or other electronic communications/usernames, phone number/email, etc. which includes my ensuring they are legal to own/buy/sell, etc. 2) When I look at their ID, I ensure it's valid, their name, at remember their city. 3) I text that information to myself immediately following the transaction. 4) When I get home, I record the details on a spreadsheet.

Why? All the reasons one can imagine. It's foreseeable that the gun I bought could be reported stolen, have been used in a crime prior to my purchase, blah blah blah. The date I purchased it and from whom will exonerate me if it turns out that way. For a gun I might sell, same thing - it turns up at a crime scene and is traced back to me (my prints, perhaps, or some FFL records). I want to know who I sold it to and when. IF the cops ever come knocking, I have information - preferably an electronic time stamped screen print - that says the other person was not a prohibited person. Saves me a lot of headache and attorney costs. "Here officer, here's the person I sold it to, you can see the date, and his statement that he was not a prohibited person. Here's the gun's serial number and the guys name and city where he lived. I did everything by the books as you can see. Anything else, you can talk to my lawyer. Have a nice day."

And with C&R transactions, you have to keep a bound book anyway.

Simple as that.

You're a fool in my view if you just meet a stranger and have no record of who or where that gun went, or when. While it may be the rare case, this is one of the few ways your an my stolen guns get put back into circulation - from folks that don't ask a few questions.

NOT having paperwork of some sort is just asking for trouble. A seller hard up for cash can sell you several guns, then report them stolen to get the insurance $ - says he thinks you broke in and took them. When the cops show up with a search warrant and find you have his 6 pistols and rifles, have fun fighting that one in court... Or another scenario. Guy commits a murder, jumps on Craigslist to sell the gun off quickly. You snap up that low priced handgun unknowingly buying a murder weapon with no record of who/when it came from. Ten years later the ballistics are run for some reason and YOU are on the hook for the unsolved murder, with NO trace where the gun came from. Your memory and excuses won't help much.

Conversely, you sell a gun to someone and that gun has your prints or paper linking it back to you. The buyer knocks off some nice folks in a parking lot and leaves the gun. Cops come knocking. Hope you have a good alibi.

Finally for insurance purposes. Pictures, serial numbers, and where I bought it to help confirm ownership if necessary.

I can't see how keeping at least minimal records (gun, serial, date, other party name/phone/city) can hurt you, and it can sure get you out of hot water.
 
Last edited:
"Please come down to the station with us for questioning on that suspect gun sale since you have no paperwork and we have 2 dead cops.
No."

Well, we now have an arrest warrant because we believe you knowingly sold that gun to a prohibited person. Turn around so we can put cuffs on you, and here are your Miranda Rights...

Regarding these two cops and the 1996 Taurus pistol... if the seller of that gun could produce a piece of signed paperwork where the buyer affirmed he was not a prohibited person and the paperwork looked thorough that would be ideal and helpful, and CYA for that guy.

Otherwise, he's scrambling to avoid being titled with a gun trafficking crime. Maybe he beats it, maybe not, but it'll cost him $20,000 in legal fees either way.

I'd rather just show a piece of paper and be done with it.

This is directed at those who think they can just sit in their houses with impunity if a gun is traced back to them (fingerprints, FFL records, or any other way).

I trust that none of us here, me included, wants registration. But if you're linked to a gun used in a crime, the only rights you'll have are the 4th, 5th, and 6th. Having defended folks that thumbed their nose at law enforcement thinking they were above the law, it isn't pretty. All it takes is a Magistrate or Judge to sign a warrant for search/seizure/arrest and you'll be hating life for a short or long time. You can clamor about your "rights" from a jail cell, and nobody will care.

There's also another reason - self imposed record keeping helps prevent the slow track toward mandatory registration. If responsible folks had the paperwork, and would turn it over to help, then .gov would not be so inclined to force the issue.

Take gun sales and storage. Irresponsible sales/storage at times leads to criminals using guns in violent crimes that end up on the news and is a black eye for the 2A, leading to harsher rules... which none of us want.
 
Last edited:
leadcounsel

Their are so many factual and logical flaws in those two posts it'd take a day to straighten it out. I'm not even gonna try, I'll just say I disagree.
 
I personally do not feel comfortable giving out my personal information to a stranger that I'm either selling or buying a gun from.

There are all kinds of what ifs and other analogies in this thread, but one thing is a fact. If there is no law saying that you MUST complete a B.O.S., and there's no PROOF that you KNOWINGLY sold to a prohibited person, how can the "Well, we now have an arrest warrant because we believe you knowingly sold that gun to a prohibited person" analogies be remotely plausible? It's not about what they "believe"; it's about what can they prove. I just seriously doubt any detective would waste their time, or it would even get that far unless other factors were involved...

Not only would you not have broken any laws and they'll have no proof either way, but what jury would take the word of a criminal over`a law abiding citizen? What prosecutor would waste the time? They MUST have evidence that you committed a crime. The fact alone that a criminal ended up with your firearm is NOT proof that would stand up in court.

I'm sure that millions of firearms have had to have been sold in FTF sales that did not involve paperwork. Can anyone point to just one (only one) news report of a case where someone was charged with selling a gun to a criminal where there weren't other incriminating circumstances involved? I've been googling my behind off, and I've found nothing.
 
Last edited:
leadcounsel said:
... if the seller of that gun could produce a piece of signed paperwork where the buyer affirmed he was not a prohibited person and the paperwork looked thorough that would be ideal and helpful, and CYA for that guy.
Click to expand...

What's the difference if the buyer signed a piece of paper affirming he wasn't a prohibited person or just told me he wasn't, if he was just lying either way? Criminals do that.
 
"I'm writing you this ticket for speeding.....you were going 65 MPH." "But officer, the speed limit is 65 and it is clearly stated on the last three signs." "We believe that 55 would be safer, please come with me."
 
HexHead said:
What's the difference if the buyer signed a piece of paper affirming he wasn't a prohibited person or just told me he wasn't, if he was just lying either way? Criminals do that.
Click to expand...
There is no difference. All these imaginative scenarios that aren't based on any factual data or events remind me for the stories that the antigun people come up with. Like how if a CCW permit holder uses his gun to defend him or herself, it'll end up being a blood bath of innocent people killed. It'll be like the Wind West... When you ask them to cite an example, they change the subject, or they'll pretend that they didn't see your request.
 
guyfromohio said:
"I'm writing you this ticket for speeding.....you were going 65 MPH." "But officer, the speed limit is 65 and it is clearly stated on the last three signs." "We believe that 55 would be safer, please come with me."
Click to expand...
UMM.. The officers "belief" matters in that scenario because the officer witnessed the transgression, and the officer would be seen as being more credible than you or me.

Unless the officer was a witness to me knowingly selling my gun to a felon, I can't see how your scenario makes ANY sense here. The officers "belief" would not be based on his eyewitness testimony when it comes to F2F sales.

[edit] I misread your post. What officer would arrest someone for doing the speed limit, and what judge would convict? Your post still makes little sense...
 
Last edited:
Styx said:
There is no difference. All these imaginative scenarios that aren't based on any factual data or events remind me for the stories that the antigun people come up with. Like how if a CCW permit holder uses his gun to defend him or herself, it'll end up being a blood bath of innocent people killed. It'll be like the Wind West... When you ask them to cite an example, they change the subject, or they'll pretend that they didn't see your request.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
Yes, I have the seller date and sign a made up receipt that they sold me a gun with ser number and description and for how much with their name and signature. I do the same when I sell one. I also ask some to state that they are legally allowed own the firearm on the receipt if I don't know them well enough, "that they are legally allowed to buy a firearm". I keep all these records together in my safe. I feel down the road, I may have to prove that the firearm is no longer mine or is mine and paid for. In my state, you don't have to register long guns via private sales but for handguns we have to go to a FFL. Either way, I think I am being responsible and covering my butt. I would do the same thing with a riding mower or anything else of value cause I don't want somebody to say that it is stolen property and I was involved in a dirty sale.
 
Styx... Either does worrying about going above and beyond the letter of the law. Zero chance of being in trouble for following the laws of your state.
 
Hexhead asked: What's the difference if the buyer signed a piece of paper affirming he wasn't a prohibited person or just told me he wasn't, if he was just lying either way? Criminals do that.
Click to expand...

You can't be serious?! You do know the concept of a receipt, right, that proves a transaction occurred on a certain date between two parties? Or a verbal versus written contract?

Look, I don't care whether ya'll want to CYA or not. As a lawyer, and criminal defense attorney, someone risk averse when it comes to my butt on the line, I see the merits of having the document/record outweighing the effort of not having it.

If they're knocking on your door, there's a reason. It's one of those things that not a big deal, until it is.

Scenario 1 - You have the paperwork proving you had the conversation. Law requires that you at least inquired and had a good faith basis to believe it, checked his ID, etc. The transaction occurred prior to the murders where the gun was found with my prints on it. I asked him to affirm he was not a prohibited person, etc.
Scenario 2 - You don't. This combined with any other negative evidence *could* be enough to bring you down town, or even arrest/title you depending on the situation (lets say there was a witness who already talked to the cops and said that the seller - you - never bothered to look at the buyer's ID or ask any questions).

I'd rather be in the scenario 1 group myself. To each their own. But for those folks here who don't even check IDs, it's going to be pretty hard to talk your way out of it when the person was never a resident of your state...

I can't fathom not keeping some records of who you sold or bought a gun from. It's not a chainsaw. It's not a set of kitchen knives or a TV. We pretend they are, but they are not. They are the tool of the trade for armed gangs and criminals and terrorists. Not at least keeping basic name, location, date, gun serial on such a transaction is inviting disaster for you.

How would you explain it today if a shotgun you sold 4 years ago on 12/1/2010 was found at the scene of a home invasion murder and robbery on 12/10/2010 in a nearby town, and the finger prints on the weapon finally came up with a hit on YOU. You have a team of law enforcement show up at your home with a warrant for your arrest and search/seizure of your home. You have NO documents, not even a name or number, to provide to the cops of where or when or who you "sold" that gun to. I almost guarantee you'd get charged with murder, and likely get prosecuted and risk being convicted with your prints on the murder weapon left at the scene. Your explaining is going to be useless - "um, well, the law says I can sell and don't need a receipt, blah blah blah," is not going to play well with a prosecutor or jury. If you testified, a prosecutor would destroy that...

Or, conversely, let's say for whatever reason your gun is entered into a database for any number of reasons. You bought it used ftf with no paperwork on 1/19/2002. No record of who or where you bought it from. Turns out it was reported stolen around that time, from a local person. Now it's up to you to come up with an explanation of how you have this stolen gun and nobody to point to. Not a good situation to be in.
 
Last edited:
I may not have a written receipt (sometimes Yes and sometimes No), but I do want to know to whom I am selling to or buying from. I record this information for my own use/documentation of the transaction. If someone has a problem with this, then no deal.
 
DeepSouth said:
What law is that?
Click to expand...

I'm wondering that as well.

I was under the impression that the law required you not having reason to believe they are prohibited person, I haven't seen a law that says you have to ask and check ID
 
I was under the impression that the law required you not having reason to believe they are prohibited person, I haven't seen a law that says you have to ask and check ID
Click to expand...

I believe that you have to have proof that the individual is a resident of the same state you are resident of and selling in.

Not a lawyer.... :scrutiny:
 
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



Without seeing a Drivers Lic how else and I going to identify that the person I am selling to is a resident of my state. The way I read this it must be satisfied prior to the sale. The language is not specific but the " reasonable cause" provision only applies to if the person is prohibited not if they are a resident of the same state.

In a states which a CCDW permit has a picture I believe you could substitute that for a Drivers Lic but IMHO some sort of picture ID verifying state of residence is required.

I guess if you know the person you could for go it but why would you? For example a family member or close friend but at that point you have "other proof" of their state of residency.

I was thinking more about a face to face transaction with a stranger.
 
Last edited:
leadcounsel said:
You can't be serious?! You do know the concept of a receipt, right, that proves a transaction occurred on a certain date between two parties? Or a verbal versus written contract?

Look, I don't care whether ya'll want to CYA or not. As a lawyer, and criminal defense attorney, someone risk averse when it comes to my butt on the line, I see the merits of having the document/record outweighing the effort of not having it.

If they're knocking on your door, there's a reason. It's one of those things that not a big deal, until it is.

Scenario 1 - You have the paperwork proving you had the conversation. Law requires that you at least inquired and had a good faith basis to believe it, checked his ID, etc. The transaction occurred prior to the murders where the gun was found with my prints on it. I asked him to affirm he was not a prohibited person, etc.
Scenario 2 - You don't. This combined with any other negative evidence *could* be enough to bring you down town, or even arrest/title you depending on the situation (lets say there was a witness who already talked to the cops and said that the seller - you - never bothered to look at the buyer's ID or ask any questions).

I'd rather be in the scenario 1 group myself. To each their own. But for those folks here who don't even check IDs, it's going to be pretty hard to talk your way out of it when the person was never a resident of your state...

I can't fathom not keeping some records of who you sold or bought a gun from. It's not a chainsaw. It's not a set of kitchen knives or a TV. We pretend they are, but they are not. They are the tool of the trade for armed gangs and criminals and terrorists. Not at least keeping basic name, location, date, gun serial on such a transaction is inviting disaster for you.

How would you explain it today if a shotgun you sold 4 years ago on 12/1/2010 was found at the scene of a home invasion murder and robbery on 12/10/2010 in a nearby town, and the finger prints on the weapon finally came up with a hit on YOU. You have a team of law enforcement show up at your home with a warrant for your arrest and search/seizure of your home. You have NO documents, not even a name or number, to provide to the cops of where or when or who you "sold" that gun to. I almost guarantee you'd get charged with murder, and likely get prosecuted and risk being convicted with your prints on the murder weapon left at the scene. Your explaining is going to be useless - "um, well, the law says I can sell and don't need a receipt, blah blah blah," is not going to play well with a prosecutor or jury. If you testified, a prosecutor would destroy that...

Or, conversely, let's say for whatever reason your gun is entered into a database for any number of reasons. You bought it used ftf with no paperwork on 1/19/2002. No record of who or where you bought it from. Turns out it was reported stolen around that time, from a local person. Now it's up to you to come up with an explanation of how you have this stolen gun and nobody to point to. Not a good situation to be in.
Click to expand...
I understand your argument. However, if the cops get a search warrant to my place and I have absolutely NO previous record of any wrong doing, not so much as a speeding ticket, I think any judge would be very presumptuous to order a search warrant on a lawful citizen who claims he/she sold the gun that was involved in a crime.

I mean, don't the authorities have to have something other than that for a search warrant? That is, John Q. Citizen of good reputation and zero criminal record of any kind sells a gun to a perp. who lied about himself and said perp then uses the gun in a crime and the gun is recovered and traced back to law-abiding-John Q. Citizen who explains to the police that he did indeed sell the gun "about a year ago... blah, blah...."

Are you going to tell me that the cops, whose job it is to know the difference between criminal behavior and who is a lying, stealing, POS perp., and who is NOT, that is, someone who has absolutely NO reason to lie about a transaction and who is a model citizen, are you saying this model citizen has no chance?

If that's the case I feel very sorry for our legal system. That is, the cops are complete idiots and the judge has no clue what the hell he's doing either.

Oh, btw, if I'm that John Q. Citizen, I'm going to sue the crap out of the cops and the DA and all the other morons who made my life a living hell for no other reason than they were idiots who don't know the differnce between a law-abiding citizen and a felon.

and one final thing, don't the cops have to have your finger prints to trace your finger prints??? Again, if I'm a law abiding citizen, the cops do not have my finger prints... well, unless I have a CWP, then they do. But if I never got a CWP or something like that, then they don't have my finger prints, right?
 
Last edited:
VAgunner said:
Without seeing a Drivers Lic how else and I going to identify that the person I am selling to is a resident of my state. The way I read this it must be satisfied prior to the sale. The language is not specific but the " reasonable cause" provision only applies to if the person is prohibited not if they are a resident of the same state.

In a states which a CCDW permit has a picture I believe you could substitute that for a Drivers Lic but IMHO some sort of picture ID verifying state of residence is required.
Click to expand...

What you quoted doesn't require that you ask anything from or of them.

Of course since they need to be a resident of your state it is in your best interest to verify, and I would NOT recommend that anybody assume, but the law doesn't say you have to ask them.

I'm not a lawyer though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
Senators near a deal on background checks for most private gun sales
2
Replies
29
Views
2K
Ignition Override
I
SASS#23149
  • Locked
How do YOU sell a handgun privately??
2
Replies
40
Views
2K
jeffkirchner
J
G
  • Locked
Bill of sale info?
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
125
Views
5K
dogtown tom
dogtown tom
P
  • Locked
Question about private transactions
Replies
8
Views
523
Bigjake
B
B
  • Locked
How long to keep C&R records
Replies
4
Views
2K
EOD Guy
E
Back
Top