notorious
Member
At the post office, your only worry is a postal worker, no criminal in his right mind goes to the post office and risks getting outgunned by the workers there.
Does a Public Business Have the Right to Tell You Not to Carry in Vehicle?
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WardenWolf
member
Fact: even in states where businesses can prohibit firearms in cars, they'd still require a search warrant to search your vehicle. Fact: most states have a provision that allows a firearm to be stored in a vehicle somewhere out of sight while not being considered "concealed".
I'll let you draw the conclusions there. Check your local laws. Even if a business owner CAN legally disallow firearms in your car on his property, the car is still YOUR property and he does not legally have the right to search it. Follow laws regarding transport and storage, and go with it.
An employer may have rights to search your vehicle as a contract clause of your employment, but anyone else does not.
I'll let you draw the conclusions there. Check your local laws. Even if a business owner CAN legally disallow firearms in your car on his property, the car is still YOUR property and he does not legally have the right to search it. Follow laws regarding transport and storage, and go with it.
An employer may have rights to search your vehicle as a contract clause of your employment, but anyone else does not.
WardenWolf
member
I don't respect people who have that attitude towards firearms. I cannot abide willful ignorance, and have zero respect for those who display it. If they post "No firearms allowed" on the entrance to the building, I'll honor that, as that is legally enforceable. If they try to say you cannot have it in the parking lot, well, good luck getting a search warrant for something you don't even know is there. That is NOT legally enforceable, at least not here, and I know it. I'm NOT giving up my protection to appease some moron who has his head so firmly in his backside that he can't see daylight.
NC says that even with a permit you may not carry a concealed handgun on any premises where the carrying of a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a statement by the controller of the premises. At least thats what the info I got with the permit says.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Well, they don't own your person either, so the logic is a bit off. In some states, the vehicle may be considered an extension of the home, but that may or may not be in regard to public lands/roads.
Got it. You are willing to break the law when you think you can get away with it. "Not legally enforceable" may not be completely correct when somebody spies a gun in a vehicle on posted property and reports it.
Interesting how you call it "willful ignorance" when somebody wishes to exert legal rights that you don't like and you think it is okay to not abide by them if you think you won't get caught. I have seen in the past that such attitudes are exactly what end up getting folks into trouble, either in that they think they won't get caught or hat somehow the laws don't apply to them. It gives a different perspective on "willful ignorance."
expvideo
Member
Well, whether they can or not, my company does it. I imagine they do it illegally in OK as well. It's a big company. Anyway, they don't own your pants either, but they can tell you what can or can't be in them. Like your gun for example.
It is what it is. I don't like it much either.
It is what it is. I don't like it much either.
expvideo
Member
Look at it this way... If it is legally enforceable, they will fire you and press charges. If it is not legally enforceable, they will just fire you. Either way, you're fired.
The simple answer, as unhelpful as it is, is to find a new job with a more pro-2a employer.
Thin Black Line
Member
BTW, this applies to federal vehicles as well. Including those vehicles that
are leased by a contractor/private agency from the GSA. Those vehicles
still remain federal property and are treated as such. You must have a letter
from your employer authorizing the carrying of a weapon (even cased) in
the vehicle and it must be a part of your job duties. Obviously, unless you're
.mil or LE-related in the first place, this is unlikely.
Sorry I can't post the cite on that, but I read it directly from one of feds
earlier this year.
A very good point.
IMO, a parking lot that is open to the public for retail has no business with what is inside your car. Personally, I believe this to be true with your car in general even if it is at the work parking lot. That being said, the law varies state to state.
notorious
Member
The 4A case law is clear that the Government can search/seize at places where it is obvious that you have a limited expectation of privacy, such as airports and courts. The rationale is funny for airports ini that the citizen has the alternative to drive and air travel is not a right or something. It was strange reading.
As for Lawson4 and that private entities cannot get a search warrant... that's not entirely accurate... in cases of copyright and piracy, private entities can get something similar and seize your property with the US Marshals or local Sheriffs as the parties who execute their warrant. Microsoft and others have been doing it for decades.
But as it relates to this topic, private entities don't EVEN NEED a search warrant. The 4A only protects us from governments, while non-government entities have no such prohibitions against unreasonable searches and seizures. So it's not so much that private entities can't get them, but it's that they DON'T NEED them.
When you deal with private entities, in an employment context, it's pretty much company policy as modified within applicable laws, but it all should be contained in your orientation with all the forms and policies you sign, assuming your company does that in the first place. Grandpa Sheckles probably won't bother with all that if you just work for his hardware store part-time after school though.
We have no expectation of privacy whatsoever on our company computers, internet use, office space, etc. (unless you work for the government, then it's a bit different in regards to desk drawers and lockers). Then again, this is a broad federal and CA viewpoint. Your state might be different.
In other countries, it's the opposite. You can do whatever you want at work and the employer cannot go into your computer or check your online activities even though they are the ones who provided you the computer and internet access. I think Canada and some European countries are like that.
As for Lawson4 and that private entities cannot get a search warrant... that's not entirely accurate... in cases of copyright and piracy, private entities can get something similar and seize your property with the US Marshals or local Sheriffs as the parties who execute their warrant. Microsoft and others have been doing it for decades.
But as it relates to this topic, private entities don't EVEN NEED a search warrant. The 4A only protects us from governments, while non-government entities have no such prohibitions against unreasonable searches and seizures. So it's not so much that private entities can't get them, but it's that they DON'T NEED them.
When you deal with private entities, in an employment context, it's pretty much company policy as modified within applicable laws, but it all should be contained in your orientation with all the forms and policies you sign, assuming your company does that in the first place. Grandpa Sheckles probably won't bother with all that if you just work for his hardware store part-time after school though.
We have no expectation of privacy whatsoever on our company computers, internet use, office space, etc. (unless you work for the government, then it's a bit different in regards to desk drawers and lockers). Then again, this is a broad federal and CA viewpoint. Your state might be different.
In other countries, it's the opposite. You can do whatever you want at work and the employer cannot go into your computer or check your online activities even though they are the ones who provided you the computer and internet access. I think Canada and some European countries are like that.
Here's the problem with that, even in a pie-in-the-sky world
If the owner of the parking lot has say about what can and cannot be in the cars, then it falls upon the owner of the parking lot to ban dangerous items.
With authority comes responsibility.
Just like a fire inspector with the authority to inspect and allow open or force closed a building. If he allows a dangerous building to remain open, and it burns to the ground, he has some real liability issues.
The the same way, if a parking lot owner gets on his high horse and says "this is MY parking lot, so MY rules apply" and then someone is hurt in his parking lot, and his rules did not bar that behavior, HE is on the hook."
Now, if you say "this is MY parking lot, and I have it here for you to use, please do so reasonably" then you are off the hook
BTW: what I said is for Indiana and I have no earthly Idea about most other states. But if a warrant is needed then it is considered private property.
How to find out. Heres a good way, you get pulled over for speeding be very polite and when he comes back to give you the ticket/warning politely ask the officer about it. I said politely but 90% of LEOs would be happy to answer a questions about warrants and when one in needed. However dont go talking about in places were there are signs or anything, just ask if he would need a warrant to search X if he didn't have probable cause. Personally Ive gotten pulled over once and I just jaw with em till they leave. LEOs are very interesting people and the older ones know a lot about everything. Just please be very polite and if they say no don't push it they deal with enough crap as it is.
How to find out. Heres a good way, you get pulled over for speeding be very polite and when he comes back to give you the ticket/warning politely ask the officer about it. I said politely but 90% of LEOs would be happy to answer a questions about warrants and when one in needed. However dont go talking about in places were there are signs or anything, just ask if he would need a warrant to search X if he didn't have probable cause. Personally Ive gotten pulled over once and I just jaw with em till they leave. LEOs are very interesting people and the older ones know a lot about everything. Just please be very polite and if they say no don't push it they deal with enough crap as it is.
notorious
Member
Premise liability is a very different area of law and your case wouldn't make it past a demurrer in California unless you had a lot of evidence showing similar things happen all the time in that parking lot and the owner was on notice and didn't do what was REASONABLE to prevent it.
Yep, there's a separate area of law called "PREMISE LIABILITY". You gotta love them lawyers.
In any event, most tort law is like that. What is foreseeable and what is preventable and at what reasonable cost and if there is even a connection (nexus) between the cause and the effect? There are more complicated issues but those are the main things you have to answer for the court before liability can be attributed.
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ants had a nice post here, #22 and I'd like to add a few questions that go the other way.
What are the rules for a property owner whose land blocks access to another owner's land. (say a grid 3x3 of 'undeveloped lots' great for birdwatching or hunting. Guy A buys the middle one, Guy B eventually buys the surrounding 8)
I am pretty sure there are rights that the other landowner can extend to access his land, which means he can pass on private property immune to tresspass laws, etc. to get to his, and back.
what are the common laws for established by-ways on your private property? be it a street, sidewalk, hiking path, etc?
It is clear that inside a city limits, there are extra restrictions built right into the legal code relating to say, your sidewalk. But I have also been told even in the boonies, if you buy a tract of land that has a path on it ("even an old indian path that is rarely used") it is basically an agreement in pepretuity with the previous land owner to allow people to cross there, and you bought that 'lean' right along with the land, so there is nothing you can do about it.
What are the rules for a property owner whose land blocks access to another owner's land. (say a grid 3x3 of 'undeveloped lots' great for birdwatching or hunting. Guy A buys the middle one, Guy B eventually buys the surrounding 8)
I am pretty sure there are rights that the other landowner can extend to access his land, which means he can pass on private property immune to tresspass laws, etc. to get to his, and back.
what are the common laws for established by-ways on your private property? be it a street, sidewalk, hiking path, etc?
It is clear that inside a city limits, there are extra restrictions built right into the legal code relating to say, your sidewalk. But I have also been told even in the boonies, if you buy a tract of land that has a path on it ("even an old indian path that is rarely used") it is basically an agreement in pepretuity with the previous land owner to allow people to cross there, and you bought that 'lean' right along with the land, so there is nothing you can do about it.
Right, and that exists because we don't sit on either end of the spectrum where a land owner has TOTAL control of EVERYTHING in his parking lot on one end and a total ANYTHING GOES on the other end.
Property rights sit somewhere in the middle, hence a whole tangle of laws regarding the rights of those on the land, and the requirements and liabilities of the owner.
In fact, I think part of the reason our property rights are in the middle of that scale is it was quite far on one side but then accidents happened, people sued, and the property owner would reply the legal equivlant of 'but there was no way I could have known that X, Y or Z was going to happen' after which the legal equivalent of 'in that case your rules preventing people from taking their own initiative to avoid X, Y, or Z should be allowed'
Missouri law specifically states that the posting of "no gun" signs on private property does not prohibit one from having a gun in an automobile in the parking lot.
However, an employer may prohibit employees from having a gun in a vehicle on the employer's property as a condition of employment.
However, an employer may prohibit employees from having a gun in a vehicle on the employer's property as a condition of employment.
mpmarty
Member
1. An employer has no right of access to a private vehicle legally parked on his lot, even if said vehicle is unlocked.
2. An employer can request an employee to allow a search of his vehicle parked on company property. Refusal would result in dismissal.
Bottom Line: How much do you like working there? It "ain't" right, but it's how it is. The golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.
2. An employer can request an employee to allow a search of his vehicle parked on company property. Refusal would result in dismissal.
Bottom Line: How much do you like working there? It "ain't" right, but it's how it is. The golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.
divemedic
Member
Not in Florida.
What many here fail to understand is that your powers and rights as a property owner do not come (in large part) from the Constitution. They originate instead in State Law, and these laws vary from state to state.
One state may allow a property owner to forbid firearms, while another may not. One state makes it a crime for you to carry in their store against the owner's wishes, while others do not.
In Florida, I can carry where I wish, whether that is on my person or in my vehicle. If the property owner finds out that I am carrying on my person, then as an employee he can fire me, and as a visitor he can ask me to leave. In neither case can he have me arrested, because I have broken no laws.
If a property owner finds out I have a gun in my car, he can ask me to leave if I am a visitor, but he can do nothing if he is my employer.
Again, all this varies from state to state.
notorious
Member
Akodo, you are referring to an easement which is a strip of land granting you access to your property if you are landlocked otherwise from accessing your property without trespassing. Liens don't come into easements because it's not a claim against another's property rights.
Property rights vary from state to state, but the only constant is that we cannot be deprived without due process. Beyond that, consult an attorney that specializes in property law in your jurisdiction, since property, unlike a lot of other areas of law, is subject to more local ordinances (zoning, tract size, permits, etc.) than sometimes state law.
Property rights vary from state to state, but the only constant is that we cannot be deprived without due process. Beyond that, consult an attorney that specializes in property law in your jurisdiction, since property, unlike a lot of other areas of law, is subject to more local ordinances (zoning, tract size, permits, etc.) than sometimes state law.
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