Does anyone know what the deal is with Airsoft players??

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Hellbore, I think you're underestimating how just careful most airsofters are.

Sure, there are some idiot kids running around in the streets with springers getting themselves into trouble...but that's the detested minority. Most airsofters are pretty respectable in terms of safety, and if not, they'll be told to shape up by the rest of us.

Likewise, there are lots of idiots running around with real guns, and with paintball guns, both of which probably pose a greater safety threat than plastic-spewing airsoft guns. Heck, I've seen videos of people with paintball guns going around and shooting random people. That's pretty dangerous.

So, I don't think you're being very fair. Maybe you should head over to Airsoftplayers.com sometime. Airsoft is great for fun, and as a training tool. It can be a great way to introduce people to the basic function of firearms without having to worry about them killing themselves!

I'm getting the idea you have the wrong idea about airsoft...

- Derek
 
Hello everyone.â„¢

I don't know what the bashing of airsoft here is all about, but I get the hint it's about bad gun handling and lack of proper instruction :neener:

Hey. The real-steel users have their share of bad apples too.

Besides, how do you ever think you're gonna get that P90 you want to get for like 1/5 of the real price?

Each to his own, I guess...
 
But being since that it seems airsofters are into the realism, wouldn't proper handing of the guns just add to the realism during play? Let them watch some video of patrolling troops in Iraq, so they can soak up how our soldiers safely carry their weapons (muzzle down, finger off trigger), even during the heat of fighting, up until the moment they are ready to kill. Proper focus on safe gun handling can only add to the ambiance, I would think.

Reading my previous comments, it seems like my language was a bit generalized towards all airsofters. That wasn't my intent. It is of course very difficult to characterize any group, be it gun owners, airsofters or whatever. So I am sure there are people that treat airsoft with as a real life simulation, and I am sure there are others who have never touched a firearm, don't plan to, and treat Airsoft as a purely recreational and fun. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with either approach, as long as any non-chalantness on the AS field doesn't transfer over into public life. Being since it seems young kids are involved in this, I would imagine there is a real potential for problems.

I am sure that people like Scorpio are not part of the problem. In fact somebody involved in so many firearm activities is probably in a great position to spread the word on safety in any sort of sim game such as PB or AS.

Scorpio, in your experience, what kind of airsoft organizations are out there? What is their stance on how AS guns should be treated regarding safe handling practices? Is there a fair amount of self-regulation in the groups, or is the image on that AR forum pretty typical (I doubt it, I hope). A well regulated sport will fare better I'm sure in the long run. I can see trouble though if Airsoft is not well organized as a whole. It only takes a few bad stories in the papers for people to start passing laws against airsoft (or anything else).

Here is what I think my opinion comes down to. Real firearms are readily and abundantly available in this country. This may not be the case in other countries where airsoft is big, so the chance for an adolescent or child to get a hold of real firearm is probably close to nil. Here in the US, that is not the case. I worry that young (impulsive) adolescents who have no firearm experience and are avid airsofters may do stupid things with either their AS guns that can get someone hurt, or have an increased probability of having an accident whenever they are involved with firearms. I don't have any hard data to support my concerns, but my gut tells me that firearm safety should be pushed big time whenever we handle the real thing, or even a simulation of it. Real guns are a part of this culture, we should take every opportunity to reinforce to our young ones the importance of safe gun handling.
 
Scorpio, based on those pics, it looks like it'd be a lot more fun to try airsoft with you and your buddies than the jokers in the pics in the AR15.com thread.

The pictures posted in that thread are some of the worst examples of airsoft players and are in no way representative of the majority of airsofters. You could do the same thing with any segment of the population, any hobby, any vocation, and make the lot look like a bunch of tools. Thankfully most of us are able to discern for ourselves the truth.




The point is, he never considered the consequences of his actions. Never thought about the fact that airsoft guns look like the real deal. Never realized how freaking big the bore of a .45 really is.

This kid could have gotten himself killed playing "games".

The kid is 11 years old dude. What do you expect? His failure to realize the consequences of his actions can't be blamed on an inanimate object. Tell me, how is an airsoft gun responsible for your little brother's actions? Did the airsoft gun jump up into his hands, and started whispering things into his ear like "shoot that unsuspecting person"?

No, there's a failure in behavioral supervision somewhere along the line. Somehow that kid got the money to buy that airsoft gun. Somehow he's not afraid to brandish it in the open. And up until your encounter, somehow nobody pointed out to him how that was wrong. Now, a smart man would not need to be told who is to blame here, but an inanimate object it ain't.



The problem is, everyone isn't you. I am upset about how cavalier kids are with these airsoft guns, and how they are likely to get themselves shot (it has happened already). This is a real problem, and it has nothing to do with you personally. Just because you aren't part of the problem, doesn't mean it's not a problem.

I do realize it's a problem. And we're doing something about it. AirsoftSafety.org is in the works (I'm in the council BTW) and this is an issue I've addressed time and time again in various airsoft boards. But it's one thing to bitch about "airsoft posers" on boards like these and it's a whole another thing to get involved and DO SOMETHING about it.

Your nephew brandishing about an airsoft gun again is a failure in behavioral supervision. See my post above. Remember those kids back in mid-90s who drove around shooting paintball guns at unsuspecting pedestrians? Did we blame paintball guns for those kids' actions? It's funny how we as gun-owners harp on all the time about "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and we flame the ???? out of hoplophobes for wanting to blame guns for society's ills. And here we are doing the same damn thing to airsoft guns. It's ridiculous, you're smarter than that.



Also, you didn't say anything about whether you think the realistic nature and lack of any real danger involved in using airsoft guns is likely to teach unsafe handling habits that might instinctively carry over into real firearm use.

I treat my airsoft guns as I do my real-steel. With no exception. Look at the picture of my crew in desert camo above (that's me, bottom left BTW) and look at their trigger-fingers. :what: Shocking. I don't see a single TF violation in there. I've made enemies on the field for pointing out trigger-finger and muzzle-safety violations.



You talked about police training with airsoft guns, but when they train, they treat the gun as if it was real, using the same safety precautions they would use with a real gun. I don't think your average airsoft player does this.

No, your average airsoft player definitely does not, and I'm working on that. Again, I don't see this as an "airsoft thing". Pick any popular TV crime show or any action movie and I'll show you mediocre and idiotic gun-handling skills. If the majority of our population gain knowledge from such media, what then do you expect to see on the street?

A good part of the problem can be blamed on ignorance, another is apathy. A lot of airsofters don't have real-steel, and frankly some could give less of a ???? about it. They're not concerned about safety and realistic gun-handling because ????, what's the worse that can happen? Somebody loses an eye? The only people that care are people like me, and there's just not enough of us to go around.
 
Scorpio, in your experience, what kind of airsoft organizations are out there? What is their stance on how AS guns should be treated regarding safe handling practices? Is there a fair amount of self-regulation in the groups, or is the image on that AR forum pretty typical (I doubt it, I hope). A well regulated sport will fare better I'm sure in the long run. I can see trouble though if Airsoft is not well organized as a whole. It only takes a few bad stories in the papers for people to start passing laws against airsoft (or anything else).




Therein lies the problem. Airsoft is a fledgeling sport in the US and it has only been around for a few years, and it didn't really start booming until 2000 or so. As such, it doesn't have a governing body or an organizational structure like paintball. What you have are a bunch of "old guard" types like me with our fingers plugging the proverbial dam leak and we ain't doing too good of a job with it.

Airsoft games throughout the US are hosted primarily by regional-based teams, since commercial fields are few and far-between. And the quality of these teams are as varied as the population of th US. You've got really squared-away teams like the Cimmerians and BAASH (featured in G4 and History Channel) and then you got the ones whose pictures got posted on AR15.com So you could end up with a team like mine whose members comprise of military veterans whose gun-handling kills outshines the local SWAT team or you could end up with a team whose leader is a 16-year-old kid who got his firearms training from the Matrix and CounterStrike.

Part of the problem is that the US airsoft community has a tendency to shun minors and kids. Retailers do not sell to minors without parental consent and teams don't usually allow minors to play for fear of lawsuits. Kids being kids of course will always find a way, and there's plenty of shady airsoft booths at gun-shows who care more about profits than the age of the buyers. Since fields aren't available to these kids, they shoot at each other on the street or at the neighborhood park, which is how tragic circumstances begin.

If it was up to me I would put every airsoft player through an NRA-sanctioned safety program. "Basic Airsoft Safety" or whatever we'd call it. Have airsoft arenas like we have skate parks where these kids can play safely. But as my old 1st Sgt used to say, "crap on one hand, wish on the other, see what fills up faster".





Real guns are a part of this culture, we should take every opportunity to reinforce to our young ones the importance of safe gun handling.

I agree completely. Instead of scaring the bejezus out of our little brothers and nephews with our bad-to-the-bone 1* 1911s, maybe we should take them and their friends out on a day-trip to the range instead. If we grabbed all those kids we made fun of at the AR15 thread, taught them proper gun-handling skills, let them pop off a few rounds out of our fearsome EBRs, we'd have a couple hundred converts on our sides and possible future allies in the fight for 2A rights. Instead we pissed off a good segment of the airsofting population and alienated would-be gun-owners. We PWN3D ourselves, and we're proud of it.

:(
 
Airsoft is a fledgeling sport in the US and it has only been around for a few years, and it didn't really start booming until 2000 or so. As such, it doesn't have a governing body or an organizational structure like paintball. What you have are a bunch of "old guard" types like me with our fingers plugging the proverbial dam leak and we ain't doing too good of a job with it.

Well I'm sure that paintball started out in a similar situation. It was probably the dedication of those who loved the sport and were willing to lead that has brought it more into the mainstream. Is there by chance any interaction between paintball organizations and airsoft groups? I haven't been in a paintball store lately so I don't know if there is much interaction between the two sports (for example, I don't know if these things are sold side by side with paintball guns). But it seems like perhaps there would be a good opportunity to team up with some paintball groups, both to share or rent their facilities, and also to perhaps to help in organizing the AS community more. Although in the end it might be easier to go your own way, since I don't know if paintballers would view the airsofters as competition. But it might be worth looking into.

Part of the problem is that the US airsoft community has a tendency to shun minors and kids. Retailers do not sell to minors without parental consent and teams don't usually allow minors to play for fear of lawsuits.

Yeah, that's a tough one. I can see the fear of getting sued. I can even see the fear perhaps in adults being hesitant to allow young ones to play with them for fear of being labelled bad influences, especially since guns are not a popular subject among many mainstream folk. There probably has to be a middle ground here as to an age cut off for organized play. Kids gotta know there are some available ways to play airsoft in a safety concious environment.
 
Well ScorpioVI kudos for doing your part to make things better. I agree, there are safety problems in a lot of sports, paintball definitely has a lot of players that don't abide by the safety rules. I do my best to educate any players I come in contact with. Sounds like you are doing good things for the sport of Airsoft.

I would kind of like to try airsoft but I have a major beef... How do you keep track of who is hit and who is out of the game, etc? The plastic BB's just bounce off... What if you didn't feel it? In paintball if you didn't feel a ball hit you or you are trying to cheat, the other player can have a ref check you for paint real quick, without interrupting the game too much. How do you handle such disputes in airsoft? Also often times someone is hit several times and calls themself out just to avoid any more pain.

I have seen that there are tiny paint pellets for airsoft guns, but I heard they can jam and be unreliable in some guns, causing more problems than good. I also heard they make such a small mark you can't really see it, or sometimes they make no mark at all.

Have there been any developments in this area recently? Doesn't this become a problem, especially in large-scale scenario games?
 
Is there by chance any interaction between paintball organizations and airsoft groups? I haven't been in a paintball store lately so I don't know if there is much interaction between the two sports (for example, I don't know if these things are sold side by side with paintball guns). But it seems like perhaps there would be a good opportunity to team up with some paintball groups, both to share or rent their facilities, and also to perhaps to help in organizing the AS community more. Although in the end it might be easier to go your own way, since I don't know if paintballers would view the airsofters as competition. But it might be worth looking into.



There is some cross-pollination between airsoft and paintball. A lot of players cross-over, or do both. It's all a matter of preference as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the two will ever marry though, airsofters like the MilSim aspect and paintballers don't want be considered remotely militant. Airsofters don't like to get paint on their nice BDUs and paintballers don't like to slip on BBs. Stores like http://www.iisports.com sell both paintball and airsoft.




I would kind of like to try airsoft but I have a major beef... How do you keep track of who is hit and who is out of the game, etc? The plastic BB's just bounce off... What if you didn't feel it? In paintball if you didn't feel a ball hit you or you are trying to cheat, the other player can have a ref check you for paint real quick, without interrupting the game too much. How do you handle such disputes in airsoft? Also often times someone is hit several times and calls themself out just to avoid any more pain.


You know, I was watching an ESPN-televised NPPA championship game back in 1999 or 2000 maybe. One of the players was caught on tape wiping paint off. Now, if a player has the audacity to do that sort of thing on a televised game, you gotta wonder how he conducts himself in a non-televised game. I've played paintball, you've played paintball, you and I both know that simply because a player is hit with paint that it's no guarantee he won't cheat.

In airsoft, we try very hard to cultivate an atmosphere of trustworthiness and honesty. Yes, we do rely on the honor system. You take a hit, you walk yourself off the field. Believe it or not, it works. Rarely do we ever catch a person cheating. I've only ever called two people on it, in the 6 years I've been playing airsoft in the US.

Why does it work?

1) Exclusivity. Teams like the ones I play with actually screen their players before the game. Members or "players in good standing" sign-up to a game online, and are sent instructions to the field 2-3 days prior to a game. Sort of like operational security. "Players of unknown standing" are assigned to a mentor and are watched closely for their first few games. It's like the internet, you can liken an airsoft game to the internet. An anonymous player can walk in, cheat, do some damage and never come back. We take all the anonymity out of the equation. If a player is a known cheat, we have his name, his address, his phone number, and he gets black-listed, which leads me to point #2...

2) Rarity. There may be a dozen paintball fields in a given metropolitan area. But there may only be one commercial airsoft field. A lot of games are hosted by teams on their own private fields, teams tend to inter-communicate and the heads tend to talk to each other. Once a player is black-listed by one team, usually another team will know about it and will black-list that player as well. So what you end up with is a player all decked out to go to war, and no war to fight. Nothing persuades a player to play straight than the threat of never-ever playing airsoft again.

3) Respawn. You guys ever play first-person-shooter, deathmatch games on your PC? You die, get transported somewhere else on the map, wait a certain amount of time, and play again? Well, most airsoft games have respawn rules. This does two things. One is that it simulates a larger force. Fighting 10 players respawning every 5 minutes is like fighting 100 players. The other benefit is that it makes "dying" not a big-deal. You get shot, walk back 100 yards to your designated respawn point, wait 5-10 minutes, go back into the fight. At most, you lose some ground, or a really freaking good fighting position, but you're still in the game (which could last a few hours). You're not done for the day once you get shot. Hell, there's been times in the past where I'm thankful I got shot just so I can go back, have a sip of water, catch my breath and take a break.

4) "Benefit of the doubt." I've had a lot of incidents in the past where I'm thinking, "the guy was like 100 feet away, right in the open, no freaking way I missed him with that burst". But hey, that's airsoft, you give the other player the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he didn't feel it, or hear it, or you missed him altogether, but since we're all honorably trustworthy players on the field you give that other player the benefit of the doubt. The player is not a cheater until you've given him the benefit of the doubt a dozen times and by a dozen different players.

5) No prizes. At the end of the day, the only thing you walk away with is tired feet, an empty camelbak, and your pride. Win or lose, there is pride to be had in playing an honorable game. And that's our sell. We don't need paint to keep people honest, we hold them accountable in an age-old Samurai code. "Death before dishonor" and all that jazz.

And it works. It really does. I've had games with as few as a dozen guys and I've had games with 150 players on EACH side. The few times that it doesn't, we deal with the offender harshly. Our society could learn a lot from how we play airsoft. The key word is accountability.
 
Scorpio, off topic here... but does that grenade launchers do anything on your M-16? I've seen pictures of airsoft hand grenades, do you use those in your games?
 
Oh, I yearn for the days in highschool when I had unlimited time to play airsoft. It's been maybe 3-4 years since I've actually been in a skirmish. :(

I too got my first fill of airsoft while I was living in the Philippines. 'Course back then most guns were pretty hefty and had to be connected to an external tank and used a gas called FLON.

Fast forward to about '97 and I find out that I can get airsoft guns in the US! All right!! I was already pretty big into military history, and had gone shooting with friends and relatives many, many times. I knew the difference between real guns and toys. I knew to keep my finger out of the trigger guard and to watch where I pointed the muzzle. And most importantly, I knew NOT to the these realistic replicas outside where someone might call the police and get real guns pointed at us.

I was active in the online message boards like X-Ring or airsoftguns.com. I taught new users to handle airosfts safely. I spread my pro-2nd amendment to people who saw airsoft only as a game. I used it as a tool to enhance my real steel training.

Sadly, it seems the influx of minors using airsoft has grown, and a lot of them do not have the discipline to play safely. It takes responsible people to teach responsible actions. So long as we have those gunshow booths or shady corner stores selling cheap $20 springers to every kid who comes in, it's going to tarnish the sport.
 
Scorpio, off topic here... but does that grenade launchers do anything on your M-16?



They're either shooting BBs (like a beehive round) or just a clever way to hide the battery.

The "M203 round" looks like this:

11850s.jpg


It's really just an insert, it doesn't actually launch. It does have a pressurized gas chamber that's activated by the 203 plunger that launches anywhere up to 60 to 120BBs at a time. Not all that fun when you're on the receiving end.
 
wHoa! i had been wondering about those grenade launchers .

i just like that i can do some remote form of target practice in my apt with my cheapo airsoft.
 
I taught new users to handle airosfts safely. I spread my pro-2nd amendment to people who saw airsoft only as a game. I used it as a tool to enhance my real steel training.

Sadly, it seems the influx of minors using airsoft has grown, and a lot of them do not have the discipline to play safely.

Don't give up hope. The most efficient way for humans to learn is to be taught by those who know. And everytime we pass up a "teachable moment" with anyone that doesn't know about something they should know, we become increasingly responsible for the state of things. So don't stop teaching! :)

In life, the teaching of things that need to be taught and learning the things that need to be learned never really ends anyway. Weather it be muzzle awareness, responsibility towards others, self discipline, or what have you. The fact that sometimes we see so many things in life that seem to be going down hill is probably proof that people are giving up on teaching the next generation. Sometimes people think that our young ones should know certain things, but in reality most of these things should be being taught in one way or another (by example is probably best way to teach, but the hardest to do sometimes). It seems like you and Scorpio are both on the teaching end but seem a bit overwhelmed. Don't give up, find every opportunity to teach, and hopefully others will learn to teach by watching you guys do it. The kind of sway that an adult has on younger person that is interested in the same thing would be substantial I would imagine. Kids find it pretty neat for the most part that someone is interested enough to take the time out to help them out.

I was looking at some of the sites on Airsoft teams that Scorpio provided. That kinda stuff sells itself. If a young kid sees that, it won't take much to have them fall in line once they start playing with responsible players. Airsoft seems relatively new, its just a matter of keeping the exposure up so people become more aware of it, kinda like this thread has done for me. If you guys like the sport, I don't think the effort you put into developing it will go to waste. This seems like a really fun sport.
 
I played airsoft for around two years and started up a small team. Basically what we did was study real tactics and movements that real military organizations used. We'd come up with scenarios to play to test out what we had learned. They were fun exercises to test ourselves. For me it gave me a glimpse of what it must be like. Granted, unless you are in a real combat situation, there is no real way to fathom it. Though, humping gear i nthe woods in august in full Vietnam gear gave me a greater respect for the men and women that serve in the military. I personally used airsoft, not only as a fun way to see military manouvers in action, but also as a way to study history in a hands on way. For me half the fun was piecing together period correct impressions of wartime eras. Doing the nessecary research for a Vietnam and WW2 impression was some of the most fun I've had with military history. Plus there is something about walking out onto the field in full ww2 gear while everyone else is in woodland BDUs with a generic tac vest. :)

As time passed and my real arsenal incresed, I've kinda lost intrest in airsoft. I'll get together with friends and see what I remember. The most important thing when dealing with airsoft is to know where you are. My team and I never brandished our "guns" in public and always broght them out in designated areas. It's the 13 year olds, that wave them around in suburbs that, give airsoft a bad name. Go check uout www.airsoftplayers.com for any info you want on it. I found the forum there an invaluable wealth of information for those serious or curious about the sport.

Here are a few pics of the impressions. They are action shots so don't blast me for my finger being on the trigger :D

namgas.jpg

nam.jpg

ww2back.jpg


The sling for the thompson isn't correct, but that's about it.
 
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