Does China sell guns to Chavez?

[Lucky]

Tellner, you are omitting the problem the Chavez isn't planning on retiring for a long long time, and you shouldn't expect little things like 'elections' to get in the way of that. There are other threads here that go into more detail, but the 'men women and children' who are being armed are 'Chavistas' who are politically loyal to Chavez, people are are on the national black-list (voted against Chavez) are cashiered out of the services and disarmed. In fact the reason the F16s are junk now is because they didn't support Chavez in a coup attempt (earlier), so when Chavez gets power he cuts funding for them, and turns them into scrap. And as a bonus he blames America for not supplying parts for the F16's - which is untrue as congress had even approved an upgrade package deal.

Oh, and Chavez is also a corrupt theiving bastard who steals from the public purse and appoints relatives to positions of power where they steal as well. But that's not exactly unusual.

All you need is for Chavez to start killing a few hundred 'rebels' (disenfranchizsed, protesters, whatever) here and there, and you have Sadaam #2.

 

[tellner]

If memory serves our coup was cloaked in a demand that he call elections years early so that his opponents would have a chance to vote him out of office before time. Maybe he'll leave office as scheduled. Maybe he won't. We have a very inconsistent history when it comes to supporting democracy, elections and the rule of law South of the Rio Grande. cf. Pinochet, Argentina's Dirty War, Stroessner, dozens of military interventions, support for the Somoza family and so on. Turning this into a causus belli is very, very strained.

Most South American dictators are perfectly happy to squat on their territory and don't want to upset the apple cart. If Chavez is a dictator and will never be willing to leave office - both unproved - in some ways it makes him less likely to go adventuring. He promises to send troops to defend Cuba and Iran? So what? Unless the guys in Miami are planning on filming "Bay of Pigs II: The Sequel" it doesn't look like anyone will be invading. Most of us will be happy to let Castro stay dead and watch the whole thing unravel. Iran? Assuming Chavez had battle-effective troops and a way to get them over to Tehran without us hearing about it how effective could they be? And how much of a drop in the pan-Islamic bucket would they make?

He's a nuisance. He is playing for the home crowd. He probably enjoys the sense of importance he gets from having the world's only real military power go into hysterics every time he opens his mouth. In the world of real threats and things worth worrying about he's near the bottom.

 

[MechAg94]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tellner
He isn't going to march up the Pan-American highway and invade us, although I wouldn't mind if he took select parts of Texas.
And just What part of Texas did you have in mind?

I would have to ask the same question.

 

[tellner]

The really dry ones where the oil's played out and the water's gone.

 

[Manedwolf]

To me, if America is the guy with a powerful concealed weapon, Chavez is the unarmed moron who stands there and tries to goad you into a fight with jeers and stupid insults, being as loud as possible.

If that were a situation on the street, what would you do? Would you let yourself be baited into an altercation, or realize you're better and just ignore them?

He LOVES the attention. Every time a pundit starts ranting about him being a threat when he just tosses a gradeschool insult at Bush, he wins.

Just ignore him. There's other real threats out there. He has a big mouth. That's it.

 

[BIGJACK]

I would be willing to bet, since Israel's place in the world of weapons selling, if one followed the paper trail one would find that they are selling weapons to South America, including Chaves and probaly Iran and North Korea.

So what do we do about them? Washingtons response would proably be "give um more money and weapons" to help them "defend" themselves.:banghead:

 

[tellner]

Bigjack, you'll hurt yourself straining to reach like that.

 

[1911Tuner]

Chavez

Quote:

>...but nothing would stop him from sending troops to Iran to fight US or sending boats and planes into the Carribbean to force us to divide Our troops.<
**********

Which would likely result in the Caribbean becoming known as the "Graveyard to the former Venezuelan Navy" within 72 hours after the incursion. (And Chavez is well aware of that.) Belligerent and fulla sheep dip he is. Stupid he ain't.

 

[ravencon]

How could anyone get excited about Venezuela buying small arms?

Frankly, I think Bush is a far greater threat to my well-being and liberty than a small-time crackpot like Chavez.

 

[Marshall]

although I wouldn't mind if he took select parts of Texas.

And just What part of Texas did you have in mind?

Must be the parts that threaten the spotted owl.

 

[Marshall]

Frankly, I think Bush is a far greater threat to my well-being and liberty than a small-time crackpot like Chavez.

Yea, Bush is out to hurt you and take away all your liberties. He's not trying to protect you by anything he's doing. I'm sure he orchestrated 911 and, as Gov of Texas, was in on all the terrorist plots against the USA just so when he became President he could listen to you talk on the phone.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Yea, Bush is out to hurt you and take away all your liberties. He's not trying to protect you by anything he's doing. I'm sure he orchestrated 911 and, as Gov of Texas, was in on all the terrorist plots against the USA just so when he became President he could listen to you talk on the phone.

Why the extreme reaction? I think the point is that Bush is in a position to do a lot more real damage to our liberties. And I would add he (and just about every other prez I can remember) has done so to some extent.

 

[tube_ee]

Well, if anyone has a reason to be anti-American, it's folks in South America. Our actions there are probably third on the nation's shame list, right behind slavery and what we did to the Indians.

So Venzuelans want to control their own resources, and use them for their national gain, rather than ours. I don't have a problem with that.

We tried to overthrow a democratically-elected government in a resource-rich third-world country. That's never happened before...

Of course, every time we do it, there's a blowback. That shouldn't surprise anyone. Just put yourself on the other side. I think George Bush is the worst President in modern American history, but if some foreign power tried to overthrow him, I'd fight. Choosing our leaders is our job. I bet Venezuelans feel the same way. In fact, I hope they do.

As for the Chinese, they sell whatever they can to whoever will pay. Be it guns or toys. I thought we liked capitalism?!?

--Shannon

 

[BIGJACK]

tube-ee, dam good posting

As I recall it was Chaves' government that sent the tanker load of fuel to the gulf coast after Katrina and we sold it to those poor @#$#%^$# for outrageous prices. But the GWB cartel made a killing, as they continue to.:banghead:

 

[Cliff47]

The way that Chavez is shooting his mouth off, you almost wonder if he brushes his teeth (assuming he does, and has any to brush) with gunpowder. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[Manedwolf]

As for the Chinese, they sell whatever they can to whoever will pay. Be it guns or toys. I thought we liked capitalism?!?

Not till they learn to respect patents, trademarks and copyrights.

Most Chinese companies don't innovate, they copy, steal, and sell copies cheaper than the original. The saying in sales that "You can sell ONE of anything to China."...the idea being that you'll see copies of the product you sold them on the shelves within a few months. In media, they're so blatant that their ripoff companies for DVDs and CDs even have CATALOGS and their own brand names.

Norinco blatantly copied American-as-apple-pie designs like the Rem 870, and I don't recall them paying any royalties to Colt...do you?

As someone in an industry where China's theft of intellectual property and free-for-all where the laws are concerned is a major concern, I'm pretty hostile towards them, yes.

I don't like communists. I like thieving pirated-goods capitalists protected by communists even less.

 

[tellner]

It's sad to say, ManedWolf, but there hasn't been a single economy that's developed into an industrial one without one of three things

- Massive theft of other people's intellectual property
- Protection of their firms and internal markets
- Lots of resources they didn't have to pay for

China seems to be going with #1 and #2. It's not nice, but historically it's pretty much inevitable.

 

[justashooter]

king fish in a very small pond.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

Does the US sell guns to Chavez? I bet we do!

 

[wingnutx]

these are being passed out to every man, woman and child in Venezuela to kill Americans.

It's a pretty long shot from Venezuela to Arizona.

He can waste as much money as he wants preparing for an invasion that will never come.

 

[tellner]

Besides, he's giving guns to the people, all the people. I thought THR members liked the idea of Everyman owning military rifles. Doesn't that mean that Venezuala is Free?

 

[GEM]

The Chinese also sold warships to Thailand - our ally.

They also sold AKs to Finland - so I'm not eating that damn Swiss cheese of theirs.

BTW - cowboy action shooters - stop using those shotgun clones.

Who would object if bans on Chinese guns for us were lifted?

 

[Lucky]

tellner, once again he is NOT giving guns to ALL people. I read those articles quickly the first times too, and though, "that's nice".

But it's about as nice as reading about the machete distribution in Kigali. "Oh look, there giving everyone machetes. How nice."

But if you look closer you'd see it's Hutus getting machetes, and only them. Then you wonder why the Tutsis aren't getting any.

Now in Venezuela it's people of a groups called 'Chavistas' who are politically loyal to Chavez, getting rifles. And people who voted against him are being disarmed and cashiered.

Take a wild freaking guess what is going on there.

And yea it's a big freaking deal because it's going to be freaking messy and free people everywhere DO owe a duty to protect each other, on a basic moral ground.

 

[Lucky]

Manedwolf;

I don't think American firearms copying is really a problem, in relation to China. The Russians would probably have legitimate complaints, except since they were communist they couldn't very well go around saying, "Hey that's MINE, I MADE that and I OWN that, not YOU or US." Lol communists.

But the 870 is an old design, and patents that last forever would be contrary to the spirit of capitalism. Same with the Winchester and Ithaca copies made in China, I don't think they are covered by patents anymore. Ditto for the Colts, and whether you're talking about 1911's or AR15's, you are making a very weak case that non-brand-name firearms of those models are bad - when you probably own a knock-off of each. Furthermore I think there is amply evidence that the expiration of the patents for both firearms was a good thing, as the free market took the good designs and ran with them, making them better and sometimes cheaper.

One could probably make the same case that SA is an bad rip-off company, while Norinco bought the actual original tools for M14 production.


And for the record, it's the French who should be for stealing, as they have an entire gov't agency devoted to gathering industrial secrets from other country's companies, I believe Boeing boycotted the entire French airshow for a while because they were getting screwed. However, rumour has it that almost every country uses it's intelligence agencies to support their businesses, to an extent.

 

[MikeH]

Norinco bought the actual original tools for M14 production.

Never heard about this one. Care to elaborate? Thanks!