Does concentricity matter ?

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YOUR BARREL BORE IS STILL SMALLER THAN YOUR BULLET DIAMETER...
This is why I asked a question earlier ( in this thread I believe ) that if you subscribe to concentricity making a difference , does one also subscribe to in bore yaw ? I once say a slow motion video of a tank shooting a round that had considerable yaw however I don’t believe that applies to a rifle bore.
 
does one also subscribe to in bore yaw ?

I don't think the two philosophies are are mutually exclusive. We can understand that the chamber freebore/throat and leade can draw eccentric or non-axial bullets to improved alignment while we still understand that the bullet can be damaged to travel down the bore without perfect axial alignment.

But we kinda remain to be following the same observation bias - we believe straight ammo SHOULD shoot smaller, so we believe it DOES shoot smaller, so even when presented with aligned principles and experimental data - or even presented with generations of competition results - folks are more apt to grasp at straws to argue against the results rather than learning from them. Folks have been jamming flat based bullets with long bearing surfaces for short range benchrest for a long, long time. Why? Because that long bearing surface should promote better axial alignment in the bore.

Weatherby rifles, alternatively, have traditionally had RIDICULOUSLY generous freebores, and they still tended to shoot extremely well... Why? Because bullets are still running into the leade and being forced to align to the bore.

We also see exceptionally small groups being fired by VLD's which are jumping, and boattail bullets which have short bearing surfaces... why? Again, because bullets are still running into the leade and being forced to align to the bore.

But we can see evidence of BOTH principles in Bryan's Part 2 video - he shows both that the rifle is bending the rounds straighter simply by chambering with a few pounds of force generated by the shooter closing the bolt AND that the bullet is taking damage on one side from that asymmetric contact... So it's fair to understand that the bullet could be asymmetrically damaged and still have some axial misalignment (in bore yaw) when it is forced through the leade under several thousand pounds of pressure AND still understand that this contact is pushing the bullet into better alignment to the bore...

So then we're simply circling back to the original illogical tautology - we think straighter ammo is better because it's straighter... But we're still failing to present data which proves a differentiation between whatever in-bore yaw we might be having if we don't cull by concentricity vs. whatever in-bore yaw we might be eliminating by culling by concentricity. "Cotigo, ergo sum," might work solve the existential paradox, but "I think it is, therefore it is," isn't typically substantiated.

Of note to the reference - Litz did some work to dispel the applicability for that tank shell video against rifle bores, both for in-bore yaw as well as gyroscopic precession AND nose-first flight for extreme distance shooting, if you're so inclined to read more on the subject.
 
This is why I asked a question earlier ( in this thread I believe ) that if you subscribe to concentricity making a difference , does one also subscribe to in bore yaw ? I once say a slow motion video of a tank shooting a round that had considerable yaw however I don’t believe that applies to a rifle bore.
From what i have read, rifle bullets do indeed have bullet yaw when leaving the muzzle, but is minimal and usually quickly straightened out. From generations of army testing found by searching google.. Bullets that are too long for the rifling may not stabilize, and eventfully actually tumble. Others on the edge of stability may take awhile to fully stabilize. This isn't new theory, and the army had reasons for testing. If you're asking about yaw while the bullet is still in the bore, you're beyond me.
 
If a bullet is seated crooked——neck tension has been effected.
If the chamber corrects said crooked bullet—neck tension has further been effected.
If the leade corrects the crooked bullet by jam—-neck tension has been deemed almost irrelevant.
Therefore if concentricity has no effect on the round, but effects neck tension, and neck tension is a “massive influence” on primary ignition—- doesn’t that state the concentricity has an influence on the round…??

However, unless you are placing many in the same hole from a distant galaxy, this almost seems to be a mute point…

……oh yeah….IMO…..



……..and, blah, blah, blah…..
 
If a bullet is seated crooked——neck tension has been effected.
If the chamber corrects said crooked bullet—neck tension has further been effected.
If the leade corrects the crooked bullet by jam—-neck tension has been deemed almost irrelevant.
Therefore if concentricity has no effect on the round, but effects neck tension, and neck tension is a “massive influence” on primary ignition—- doesn’t that state the concentricity has an influence on the round…??

However, unless you are placing many in the same hole from a distant galaxy, this almost seems to be a mute point…

……oh yeah….IMO…..



……..and, blah, blah, blah…..
Not really what Varminterror was alluding to, the neck on brass could be out .002 and you'll see that on the bullet.

You would really have to bend the neck out of round, to affect neck tension, to affect ignition. Probably to the point that the round wouldn't chamber.
 
I haven’t invested in concentricity measurements, yet. Still trying to understand if it’s worth it.


Neck tension is a massive influence on primary ignition. It’s not a small knob.
What does that translate to, Velocity?
 
I’m presuming you mean consistent neck tension? Which is the whole anneal, bushing die, expander mandrel sequence?
 
While neck tension is a big knob ( some ) combination don’t mind a light hold while others like a lot of bullet hold ( neck tension) variations doesn’t change where the optimum node is that much but will indeed change group sizes and how the rifle comes into tune by erratic behavior.
Some guys test BH last where I prefer to test it earlier in the tuning process as the target is just easier to interpret. When you get the on right bushing..
Starting with a loaded round OD diameter .265 I like to test using a charge ladder with different neck bushings and from this it’s easy to see that the rifle prefers the smaller .261 bushing
I haven’t consulted ES/SD variations just the paper target so I can’t speak on that.
 

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I haven’t invested in concentricity measurements, yet. Still trying to understand if it’s worth it.


Here's another real world test where the "common sense" hypothesis was tested, but the REAL WORLD testing showed that seating crooked bullets, despite obvious asymmetric bulging of the case, didn't actually promote a larger group on target...

If you follow ALL of the shared tests in this thread alone, it would tell you that concentricity measurements are not worth it.

What does that translate to, Velocity?

@Walkalong nailed it.

Nect tension and/or resistance from the lands affects start pressure/good burn/ES/SD numbers……
 
I mean this in all good humor and respect...

Have you ever heard a couple or more Scots speaking with that thick brogue? You know it's English but haven't a freakin clue what they're sayin.

Just when I think, oh, I get what you guys are saying, boom! I get a another dose of the brogue.
What's a flank? ...defilade... :D

Could you imagine everyone in the same room discussing reloading, at the same time?
 
I’ll re phrase my post to illustrate that depending on the rifle, it may only take .001 difference in neck tension to make a huge difference on paper at mid range.
So while straight ammo may not influence the target neck tension ( bullet hold ) can.
 
No, don’t presume…. I shoot smaller groups than most and never anneal or use mandrels.

But you DO create consistent neck tension with the process you use.

@lordpaxman - some notes:

Consistent neck tension within a batch of ammo isn't made consistent by annealing or by using mandrels. It's simply created by having consistent brass which has had consistent experience. Kind of like raising identical twins in the same household, "Nature vs. Nurture," since they're twins they have the same Nature and raised in the same house, they have the same nurture... so they stay as identical as they can be. But if you start out with unrelated kids raised in different households, the nature is different and the nurture is different, so they wind up very different. Applied to brass, that is analogous to matched lot, quality brass, which is organized by number of firings and all fired in the same rifle vs. mixed brass or low quality brass which might have different firing counts or has been fired in different rifles at different times...

Annealing doesn't necessarily promote consistent neck tension within a batch of ammo, if it has all been "raised the same." But annealing can kind of erase differences in "nurture" for brass, so we get improved consistency from one firing to the next. For example, if my "nurture" is different for some brass within a batch than the rest, such as if I added (intentionally or otherwise) 5 pieces of virgin brass to a lot of brass with 7 firings, I know those two different sub-batches of brass will behave differently in the sizing die and will grip the bullet differently. We can generally see progressively harder and harder seating pressure as brass firing counts climb. BUT... If I anneal, I can bring those all back to a more similar state, erasing some of the differences in "nurture," and revert them back to their similar "nature" state. (It's relatively demonstrable there is a limit to this - eventually brass gets extremely work hardened after enough firings and we begin seeing increased inconsistency, but in general, quality brass at the same firing count will be as consistent as it ever was for several firings). So annealing isn't necessarily giving us the SAME number for a given firing batch, but rather it's making sure the number stays the same from one firing to the next to the next, by resetting the "nurture" value of the brass's life to zero and reverting back to the "nature" state.

Equally, mandrels don't promote consistency in neck tension either. They simply give the reloader more control over the size of the brass. The differentiation between perfectly round ID (mandrel expander) vs. perfectly round OD (sizing die/bushing) ends up being an exceptionally small knob. So the mandrel isn't doing anything to give us the SAME number for neck tension, it's only doing something to give us the RIGHT number.

The "nature & nurture" of the brass, the quality and consistency of the product originally, and the consistency of the life each piece has lived to arrive at a given firing batch, are really what is dictating consistency in the firing batch.
 
That'd be tough but what about the annual Sommeliers convention?
They'd be able to tell you who likes 2 buck chuck or Chateau Mouton! ;)

The conversations would probably be along the same lines. Who's right/wrong, what's the best answer...
 
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