Does open carrying long guns really help persuade public opinions in a good way?

[wojownik]

IMHO, no. It's an "in your face" antic that does little to generate sympathy or understanding towards the pro-2a position. "In-your-face" in the sense of adding a level of incivility.

Is it your right to be "in your face" in terms of your personal dress, style, mannerisms, speech, political views, etc... Yes (insofar as one is not crossing the line into disorderly conduct). Will people with "extreme" appearances win over the hearts and minds of folks towards understanding a position. Think about that. Are those open carrying long arms trying to positively influence a political/social discourse, or are they just trying to be unnecessarily provocative? And, even if they are trying to positively influence 2A discourse, have they considered how they are perceived by the mainstream?

Here's my negative OC anecdote. A few months months ago (just before school started), I brought one of my kids out on a field trip. While at an eatery, some OC guy sidled up behind me and my young daughter while we were in line to order. He got so close the muzzle of his rifle (pointed downwards) rested on the side of my daughters head right behind her ear. I heard my daughter say "Daddy?" - and when I noticed him, then where his rifle was, I swiftly moved my kid aside and began to dress him down in no uncertain terms. I maybe got two sentences out (of which I think only three words were not profane) when the manager told the OC guy and his buddy to leave immediately in no uncertain terms. Two days later, the place is posted "no guns." Well done, OC dude. Well done.

BTW, here's my odd OC anecdote. I OC'd a long arm in NYC once - I participated in a parade a number of years ago, as part of a large Civil War contingent. Imagine almost 200 folks in blue kersey, brogans and rifled-muskets marching down the sidewalk on Lexington Ave, then 28th street, then boarding a subway (!!), down several stops towards the parade area. I'll tell you the looks and reaction from the denizens of NYC were priceless. I was surprised how many folks totally freaked out - literally jumping out of their skins - particularly as were were all nestled together on the #6 train up towards 42nd Street. Surreal, truly surreal.

 

[JohnKSa]

California did ban open carry, but the citizens of that state have only the privilege to keep and bear arms. This is not a real loss because the legislature does what it wants regarding guns anyway.

It is a real loss. If I can do something legally and then there's a law passed and I can no longer do what I want legally then that is a real loss.

The attempt to dismiss the CA lesson is counter productive if the goal is to positively influence public opinion. We need to learn from the mistakes/failures of others. If we instead look for ways to dismiss them/ignore them we will likely repeat those errors with the same negative results.

Has there been a single injury, death, discharge, or prosecution at one of these events? Just how irresponsible could they be?

So unless someone gets injured, killed, prosecuted or unintentionally discharges a firearm then everyone is being responsible? Clearly that's not true--not by any stretch of the imagination. If it were, then if we're at the range and I sweep you with my gun, I'm being responsible as long as the gun doesn't go off and I don't get prosecuted. We both know that's not true.

Clearly, people can be irresponsible with a firearm without injuring/killing/unintentionally discharging a firearm/being prosecuted.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Here's my negative OC anecdote. A few months months ago (just before school started), I brought one of my kids out on a field trip. While at an eatery, some OC guy sidled up behind me and my young daughter while we were in line to order. He got so close the muzzle of his rifle (pointed downwards) rested on the side of my daughters head right behind her ear. I heard my daughter say "Daddy?" - and when I noticed him, then where his rifle was, I swiftly moved my kid aside and began to dress him down in no uncertain terms. I maybe got two sentences out (of which I think only three words were not profane) when the manager told the OC guy and his buddy to leave immediately in no uncertain terms. Two days later, the place is posted "no guns." Well done, OC dude. Well done.

So you blame the OC guy for the no guns sign? His only fault, as I see it, was a glaring lack of muzzle discipline on a slung rifle. The ONLY reason this got ANY attention, and thus the no guns sign, is because you flew off the handle and acted like a rabid anti cussing and screaming at a guy (wonderful example for your young daughter, btw) instead of handling the situation rationally. You went overboard and escalated the situation. I understand you were torqued off, but acting like an ass was what ultimately got guns banned in that particular store. So hats off to you, Mr. over-reacting guy.

 

[JohnKSa]

...acted like a rabid anti...

This is the second time this week (on two different forums) that I've seen someone try to imply that reacting strongly to being swept with a muzzle is anti-gun behavior. I would like to think that we all understand why being swept with a muzzle is completely unacceptable and also that a vehement response to such a safety violation is not evidence of being anti-gun.

In my experience, it's those with a lot of gun experience (as opposed to anti-gunners) who are most likely to have a major fit about being swept.

 

[wojownik]

OK I'll play.

I dressed him down for lack of muzzle discipline. Placing a the muzzle of a firearm ON a 5 year olds head is inexcusable and indefensible. Period.

The rifle was not slung, he was holding it tucked in one arm while texting on his smartphone with the other. My wife had already taken my daughter and I was addressing him in a low growl. I did not "scream," but I did give him a good growl man to man.

You invented things that I did not write, and did not occur.

 

[USAF_Vet]

So I filled in the blanks, but you acted unprofessionally in reaction to his poor muzzle discipline. I'm neither excusing nor defending his behavior, I'm just calling you out on yours. Are you a dog, or a man? Growling man to man sounds like posturing and escalating a situation. Animals growl, men have the ability to contain their anger and act professionally and respectfully even if they really want to rip the other guys throat out.

Over reacting to a situation is how anti's behave, like tackling a legally armed citizen in a Walmart. I've been muzzle swept along with my kids at the range. I didn't get in the guys face and act like a dangling male appendage, but calmly, though curtly, pointed out his error and politely asked his to correct his behavior. It didn't happen again. Had it, then maybe I'd have escalated the situation. You went right to being an animal. Sorry, but two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[wojownik]

You really want to play word games tonight?

I said growl, as in "educated the young man in salty language so that the message would stick." Growl, as in someone hoping to God the message gets through so he does not end up doing something even more careless, and really injuring the 2A cause. Growl, just as someone once growled at me much more harshly, when I screwed up with my rifle many years ago - and that deserved lesson has stuck with me well for 30+ years.

If carelessly pointing weapons at at kids does not merit a growl, I have no idea what does.

Feel free to continue to manipulate my anecdote, and the word "growl" to your hearts content.

Oh, and by the way, the manager was already coming around the counter before I even noticed what was going on - he saw the muzzle on my kids ear before I did. The ball was rolling on this one before I had even turned around.



Here's another anecdote that I think I've posted on this forum before (not a rifle, but muzzle discipline). A fellow at the range next to me was futzing with his rental 1911. I had just taken a step backwards when the pistol discharged, passing through his wall, right through the stall were I was standing a few seconds earlier. I leaned over (probably still in partial surprise) and just said, "y'all mind some pointers on that particular gun". He politely declined and packed it in for the day.

So, maybe its just that my kids life might be worth more to me than my own. In any event, I don't really give a good g-damn what other folks might think.

Out.

 

[TennJed]

You are entitled to your opinion but people to not call people who exercise their rights children.

If you act immature then expect to be called a child. They act recklessly and immature, they act very much like children.

Actually most children who are raised properly act better, but you get the point. When you act immature, you are acting like a child.

 

[Oldschool shooter]

Really? If the asshat had it tucked under his arm playing with his smartphone and that muzzle was resting on my kids head, I'd of grabbed his gun, dropped the mag and cleared the chamber, then butt stroked him with it! I hardly see this clown being dressed down as over-reacting.

 

[jhb]

I support open carry in any form.....I'm even a member of florida carry.......but

these gathering with long guns and flags waving remind me of klan rallies. in the form of a smallish group of people all looking wacky and extremist and dying for controversial attention in any form.....also being in an awkard place and just making folks uncomfortable. That said I'm not comparing rifle toters to klan clowns.....it just reminds me of it. I'm all for responsible open carry, and if I am reminded of it.......image how the fence sitters think.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

So you blame the OC guy for the no guns sign? His only fault, as I see it, was a glaring lack of muzzle discipline on a slung rifle. The ONLY reason this got ANY attention, and thus the no guns sign, is because you flew off the handle and acted like a rabid anti cussing and screaming at a guy (wonderful example for your young daughter, btw) instead of handling the situation rationally. You went overboard and escalated the situation. I understand you were torqued off, but acting like an ass was what ultimately got guns banned in that particular store. So hats off to you, Mr. over-reacting guy.

Well before this thread gets shut down for name calling, total disrespect, and internet temper tantrums, I would like to say I disagree with your conclusions, sir.

A gun was on his daughter's head. Period.

How would you react if I pointed a gun at you? At your spouse, or one of your kids?

I remember my father on two seperate occasions acting "unprofessionally" when mine and my brother's lives were in potential deadly situations. Once when my brother was water skiing and was missed by inches by a hooligan teenage jet skiier, and another when I was on his motorcycle and a lady almost killed me. Both times he said bad words. Both times he defended his "cubs". Both times he lost his temper. Both times were well deserved confrontations.

If you think that a gun barrel on his daughters head is an occasion to be "professional", then you are either a lawyer, living in la-la land, or making up nonsense to pick a fight.

Edit: calling someone "unprofessional" yet ranting and raving with profanity about them on the internet?!?!?! 10 points for irony

 

[hatt]

OC of longguns is a protest. Protest>sitting behind keyboard talking about how you've been sending checks to the NRA all these years.

 

[TennJed]

So you blame the OC guy for the no guns sign? His only fault, as I see it, was a glaring lack of muzzle discipline on a slung rifle. The ONLY reason this got ANY attention, and thus the no guns sign, is because you flew off the handle and acted like a rabid anti cussing and screaming at a guy (wonderful example for your young daughter, btw) instead of handling the situation rationally. You went overboard and escalated the situation. I understand you were torqued off, but acting like an ass was what ultimately got guns banned in that particular store. So hats off to you, Mr. over-reacting guy.

No the reason it got attention was a foolish person acted irresponsible with a gun in public. He was so unaware of his muzzle he put it on a child's head while he played on his phone.

That behavior should be called out. Honestly this idiot should have been arrested. Guns got banned because of the way the guy with the long gun handled his weapon. Plain and simple. This is exactly why gun owners need to publicly call out these jerks for their childish behavior.

OC of longguns is a protest. Protest>sitting behind keyboard talking about how you've been sending checks to the NRA all these years.

lol, that is an absurd blanket statement. Not all protest is productive or good. Just because you protest doesn't mean squat if you go about it in a way that is foolish and counter productive.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

OC of longguns is a protest. Protest>sitting behind keyboard talking about how you've been sending checks to the NRA all these years.

Problem is, irresponsible protesting only "preaches to the choir" and makes the other team angry and more resistant. Look at recent irresponsible protests, all they accomplished is dividing people more.

But responsible and irresponsible are up for debate, hence this thread.

 

[Frank Ettin]

OC of longguns is a protest....

And it is also a worthless, useless and counter productive. A protest is only a good protest if it has a demonstrable good effect.

 

[hatt]

Problem is, irresponsible protesting only "preaches to the choir" and makes the other team angry and more resistant. Look at recent irresponsible protests, all they accomplished is dividing people more.

But responsible and irresponsible are up for debate, hence this thread.

Preaching to the choir? The choir(I guess you mean "pro gun" folks) is who's always outraged by OCers. Them and the handful of anti gunners but I think the "pro gun" people are worst about it. Most people don't care much one way or another. I'm pretty sure most on this site would rather have dinner with Sarah Brady vs some working guy "bearing arms."

 

[hatt]

And it is also a worthless, useless and counter productive. A protest is only a good protest if it has a demonstrable good effect.

Several states have recently had OC passed. Please explain how the "activists" didn't have a hand in that? And as far as I know Kali is the only state that's went backwards, and that wasn't far. Please explain why California is relevant to this conversation. Please explain why TX and FL(FL had it all but passed until the NRA/USF stepped in and blocked it) now have OC being debated in their legislatures?

 

[silicosys4]

Preaching to the choir? The choir(I guess you mean "pro gun" folks) is who's always outraged by OCers.

"always outraged"? I see people open carrying long rifles all the time, and nobody blinks an eye. Of course that's in the woods during hunting season.

Them and the handful of anti gunners but I think the "pro gun" people are worst about it.

How many times have you open carried a rifle through an urban area that you've gotten so many positive responses from non gun people?

Most people don't care much one way or another

Yea, right up until its actually in front of them for no reason.

I'm pretty sure most on this site would rather have dinner with Sarah Brady vs some working guy "bearing arms."

Pretty sure you are wrong.

 

[TennJed]

Several states have recently had OC passed. Please explain how the "activists" didn't have a hand in that? And as far as I know Kali is the only state that's went backwards, and that wasn't far. Please explain why California is relevant to this conversation. Please explain why TX and FL(FL had it all but passed until the NRA/USF stepped in and blocked it) now have OC being debated in their legislatures?

Gun laws in general are going pro gun in general, not just open carry. Laws are being passed in spite of a small minority of gun owners acting irresponsibly. Because the vast majority of use are responsible and act responsible.

You said that gun owners are the main ones getting outraged. The Gun owners are getting outraged are the same ones changing laws. Do you think the small minority of people carrying long arms in grocery stores are the only ones voting? You can't have it both ways.

The argument made by the few in favor of this behavior is full of holes and hypocrisy. You stated most people don't care one way or the other, but then in your next post you claim it is changing laws. Which is it. Your whole argument is one big contradiction.

 

[hatt]

Gun laws in general are going pro gun in general, not just open carry. Laws are being passed in spite of a small minority of gun owners acting irresponsibly. Because the vast majority of use are responsible and act responsible.

You said that gun owners are the main ones getting outraged. The Gun owners are getting outraged are the same ones changing laws. Do you think the small minority of people carrying long arms in grocery stores are the only ones voting? You can't have it both ways.

The argument made by the few in favor of this behavior is full of holes and hypocrisy. You stated most people don't care one way or the other, but then in your next post you claim it is changing laws. Which is it. Your whole argument is one big contradiction.

I said "pro gun" not gun owners. Or more accurately faux gun. The same people who didn't really think people should have "assault rifles" in the early 90s.

The fact that most people don't care is certainly accurate. A large portion of people couldn't tell you who is vice president right now. They aren't worried about other stuff either.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Preaching to the choir? The choir(I guess you mean "pro gun" folks) is who's always outraged by OCers. Them and the handful of anti gunners but I think the "pro gun" people are worst about it. Most people don't care much one way or another. I'm pretty sure most on this site would rather have dinner with Sarah Brady vs some working guy "bearing arms."

My statement was about general protests, not just OC. But, the choir in my metaphor would be fellow open carriers.

Example:

Say I run around town naked, protesting that the government needs to give out free donuts. That is how I want to demonstrate (yes, I know that is illegal, but for comedy, let's entertain it). The only people who will agree with me/support me are people who like donuts AND people who like other naked people.

People who like JUST donuts and people who like JUST naked people will not agee/support me.

People who dislike BOTH donuts and naked people with not agree with/support me.

Then, since most people will fall under the "non donut ANDnaked category", local laws will spring up and ban donut/nudity used together.

That is a big problem when a small number of people who feel passionate about something get together and face a greater opposition. The non-subtle protests will get squashed by public opinion because there are so many variables. It is more than just 2A vs antis.

 

[hatt]

"The non-subtle protests will get squashed by public opinion because there are so many variables."

Hasn't happened. OC is gaining ground. Before the OC protesters OC wasn't on the table. Now it's on the table and winning. Explain this?

 

[hatt]

This is why the OC protesters are so far ahead of so many of you guys on gun Rights. If they did it your way the subject would have never even come up. Now they are getting results and others are left to follow throwing rocks.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

This is why the OC protesters are so far ahead of so many of you guys on gun Rights. If they did it your way the subject would have never even come up. Now they are getting results and others are left to follow throwing rocks.

Just because something gains attention, doesn't mean it's positive. Look at Kim Kardashian, Jersey Shore, Justin Bieber, and any other pop culture phenomenon.

And open carry with a pistol and open carry with a long gun are two very different things. But what do I know, clearly I am very far behind on my opinions, which are my right to have.

 

[TennJed]

This is why the OC protesters are so far ahead of so many of you guys on gun Rights. If they did it your way the subject would have never even come up. Now they are getting results and others are left to follow throwing rocks.

List them. What state and what years were these laws changed.