Does the .44 Spl snubby concept work?

[P. Plainsman]

The .44 Special is an interesting cartridge. If I won the lottery, the Freedom Arms Model 97 that I would purchase on the following day would be chambered in .44 spl, I think.

My question is about some more down to earth guns. What are people's opinions of the .44 spl defensive snubbies?

Taurus and Charter seem to be the only producers of these beasts (and actually, the Taurus 445 is marked "not in production" on the Taurus website). The concept is an appealing one: a fat, slow cartridge in a small wheelgun that leaves a big mark. I am always curious to hear about the Taurus 445 snubs, in particular. They are good looking and intriguing guns.

But one hears different things. Some say the cylinder size makes these fiveguns too big to be concealed. Some say that their accuracy is bad. Some say recoil is distracting out of the small frame, and prevents quick follow-up shots. And some report that the .44 spl slug is very slow as it emerges from the short barrel -- enough so that the big punch suggested by the gun's concept fails to materialize. These gripes suggest that one would do better sticking with the classic .38+P or more recent .357 snubbies.

What's the scoop? I don't have a vested interest here: as I said, I find the little .44s intriguing. Just wondered what those with experience think of 'em.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Back in 80's I owned a Charter Arms in 44. Carried IWB no problem Shooting however was another story,recoil was a bit stiff. I felt ok for SD but not a 100 round range pistol. You know carry a lot shoot a little. That said if I ever find another in excellent shape and I have $ I will pick up.

 

[magsnubby]

I bought one of the Charter Arms .44's when they first came out. Hell of a defense gun but not a great range gun or plinker. I used mostly 240 gr reloads in it. Can't remember the exact load but it was pretty stiff. I messed around with some 180 gr jhp's but they were just way to hot for such a light gun.

I finally gave it to my dad and went back to a Ruger Security Six .357. I might buy another one some day just so i can say i have one.

 

[Stainz]

One of the Ti 445's was bought new by a range-rat friend... it couldn't shoot over half a box without jamming up tight. Another one had similar problems - and wouldn't always pop the primers. Both were shooting Blazer 200gr GDJHP and 225gr Silvertips.

I bought both the 296 & 696 S&W's new 1/03, after both had been dropped for some time. The 296 has been as low as $349 on closeout. It is highly ammo-restrictive; ie, 200gr, clad-only, and no shorter (.44 Russian cases). It is an enclosed hammer five-shot with an Al alloy frame, SS 2.5" barrel liner, fixed sights, and a Ti cylinder. It weighs ~21 oz loaded with those Blazers, it's favorite ammo (~804fps), although I now substitute the nearly identical Starline brass cased Georgia Arms loads. That 200gr Gold Dot, Speer #4427, is designed to open up by 800fps and is a perfect snubby load. It is a pocketfull. Shooting is fine - even quite accurate - with the UM's combats in place of the supplied boot grips.

The all-SS 3" 696, with it's normal hammer and adjustable sights, is a joy to shoot... and it'll shoot whatever you want in .44 Special and Russian cases. My favorite load is a 240gr LRNFP or LSWC over 4.5/4.6gr TiteGroup in a .44 Special case (4.0-4.2 gr in .44 Russian cases for similar results.), giving a comfortable and reasonably accurate plinker at ~745fps (... increases to ~820fps in my 6.5" Heritage 24.). It is a bit big for a 'snubby'... but, it is a super pancake holster goodie, if you can take the weight (38 oz loaded) and size... I added the squared UM's combats to mine, recycling it's OEM rounded combats to the 296. They both take the Bulldog-designed HKS CA-44 speedloaders.

Yes, I like the .44 Special for a CCW round. I also have a 2" 10, +P rated, with +P 158gr LHPSWC's loaded, for a night stand firearm. My wife's is a 3" 65 with the same old 'FBI' loads.

Stainz

 

[StrikeEagle]

I have two Charter Bulldogs, and they're actually kind of nice. My older 3-inch gun is pretty darned accurate, too. It's a bit clunky in terms of fit and finish, but it's never failed to deliver a "boom."

The Silvertip is rather respectable in terms of Stopping Power, too:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

The recoil is there, yeah... but it's not punishing at all. It's easier to manage than a small .357, IMO. I think that Charter .44's are very decent, honest little guns, and if you enjoy and respect the .44 Spl round, they will not disappoint you.

And of course, they cross the counter at prices that won't send you into Chapter 11.

My opinions there, but I think you should go for it.

best,
StrikeEagle

 

[Poohgyrr]

The 696 is a 3" L frame, about the same size as the 2 1/2" 686's, and just a tad larger than the 3" K frames. All of these are pretty popular carry revolvers, used for generations by a lot of people. A good holster & belt make really do make a big difference in comfort, or at least in much less uncomfortableness..... I'd like a 696.

There are modern loads available now, Pro Load, and maybe Bufflo Bore or Black Hills, even the Federal load isn't bad. I think the .44 Special load has less recoil and muzzle blast than the .357's; both can do the job.

Here is a "comfortable" holster for a 4" N frame .44 Special. It is much more comfortable than I expect.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

I have a Taurus .44 Special, but it's no snubbie. I got my hands on a NIB 6" gun w/adjustables for a great price, as apparently they didn't sell so well.

The earlier 431/441 guns are a traditional medium-frame size, like a K-frame S&W. They use the same magnum-length cylinder blanks, but bored for five .44's instead of six .357's. If you think a K-frame's too big to conceal, even with a snubby barrel, then the concealable question's moot.

WhenTaurus produced their latest round of new-generation snubbies in calibers from .44 Special all the way to .41 Magnum, they'd re-vamped the frame a bit, making it a hair smaller everywhere they could to save weight and space but maintain the big-bore option. This netted them what they call their "compact frame" guns, as opposed to the medium-frame service guns that are still in the line-up. Medium-frame big-bores have been discontinued, their place having been usurped by the compact frame w/ the Ribber grip as offerred in the Tracker line.

Taurus offers .44's, .45 Colts, .45 ACP's, and of course the mighty .41 mag. ALL are ported, (Although I seem to remember reading someplace that Taurus is finally offering non-ported guns in SOME calibers.) as the snubby platform is light enough to engender worries about recoil-induced bullet pull tying up the gun. This is the reason for the alloy-framed S&W's to have a bullet weight restriction plastered on the barrel.

While lightweight crimps usually aren't an issue with traditional revolver rounds, cartridges like the .45 ACP headspace on the case mouth, which precludes heavy crimping, allowing auto-typical calibers to experience bullet migration. This is the problem Taurus ran into with their advertised-but-never-sold .40 S&W pocket revolver. High-pressure .40's were consistrently too hot to maintain cartridge integrity in the lightweight snubbies, even if they were ported.

That put's paid to my plan for a medium-frame 10mm revolver, and probably ever seing an unported .45 ACP snubby, although I think you can get an unported .45 ACP Tracker with a 4" full-lug barrel.

I like big-bore snubbies. Realistically, I'd buy the whole Taurus snubby line-up. My .41 Tracker's proving to be a light, powerful, accurate gun. My .44's easily as good, and I've got an old M-82 .38 Special that's one of the most accurate guns I own. Taurus has been having quality issues of late, and deliver miserable customer service by all accounts 'round here lately, but if you get a good one, they're pretty darn good.

Good enough that I'd buy 'em, if I could. But Taurus can't be bothered to put more than a token few basics of their whole line onto the Kaliforny Drop-test Extortion Rackett List. That STINKS, as Taurus has a LOT of guns I'd order up if it were only legal to import them as a non-LEO.

Naturally the "Safety-oriented, if they don't pass they must be too DANGEROUS to sell to blissninnies" guns are all available to LE. The drop test to determine that a given breed of gun is "unsafe" to sell to the law-abiding public doesn't prevent LE from using whatever the heck they want, "unsafe" or not. I truly cannot STAND resrictive possession laws with LEO exception clauses. Cops are NOT super-citizens, they're CIVILIANS, just like the rest of us peons. Any other way of looking at it just widens the us vs. them mentality. That we Really need. ]

Sorry about the soapbox. This just bugs the heck outta me. :banghead:

 

[P. Plainsman]

Sorry about the soapbox. This just bugs the heck outta me.

Not at all, HRG. Very thoughtful post.

Let me toss in a question prompted by Taurus's fetish for barrel porting. I can see the rationale for putting ports on lightweight .44 spls, to cut felt recoil. But, man. Given the already teeny barrels on the guns, they must yield some striking muzzle fireworks.

Rather close to one's hands.

Problem?


Oh, and the S&W 696 seems sweet. Guy on Gunsamerica is asking $798 for a used one!

Not a "snubby," though.

 

[Black Snowman]

The porting doesn't represent any real threat to your hands. Less than the cylinder gap. However if you have to shoot from an odd position you could get a blast into your face or body. And that could be bad.

According to Taurus' site there is a model 445 Ultra-Light which is a grey Total Titanium that's unported. I've only ever seen the matte and gloss bright blue versions, which are ported however. I actually like the Matte bright blue finish. I wish I could get it unported.

 

[john from md]

I owned and carried a Rossie 721 for some time. This was a three inch barrel on a small frame. Due to the angle of the grip, this 44 Spl did not have a bad felt recoil. The trigger pull was also as good as a 'Smith.
I sold it when I consolodated my pistol calibers. I was loading 16 different calibers one time!

John from MD

 

[Edward429451]

I have a 2.5" bull bbl model Bulldog, no shroud to shoot loose. My experiance with it pretty much mirrors the other posters experiances. Stiffish recoil makes the pins walk each range session. Not a *bad* gun, but could be better. To be carried much & shot little.

 

[StrikeEagle]

"I sold it when I consolodated my pistol calibers. I was loading 16 different calibers one time!"

Eeeek, man! You cut loose the .44 Special? That's one of my very most favorites to handload for. Works sooooo well with my cast bullets, and the savings over factory ammo is like a factor of 5 or 6 at least.

Gosh, what else didn't pass muster? What do you load for now?

Sigh... of course I currently load for 30 or so cartridges, so I'm not sure you should pay much attention to me.

best,
StrikeEagle

 

[Majic]

While the 5 shooters can be very good revolvers, you can also move up to the 6 shooters. Of course you give up a size and weight advantage, but you get a strong snub capable of heavier loads.

S&W Model 24-3

 

[Pappy John]

CCI Blazers using the 200 gr. Gold Dot bullet make 830 fps+ out of this 3" barrel. Yeah, the concept werks fer me. That is if you consider 3" to still fit the 'snubby' catagory.

 

[ted murphy]

I have a steel 445, I bought it right when they came out. It is pretty accurate I must say.

I thought it would be more on par with a bulldog, cylinder width is just about the same as a S&W L frame- though overall it's smaller in the butt and barrell than the L frames. That makes it not the little belly gun I had hoped for, but it is a nice gun. It is my pizza gun, the gun I answer the door with.

It barks some when you shoot it, but not that bad. Always wanted wood stocks for it, the rubber ones just don't feel right for me. Then agin, I prefer wood on all my wheelies.

Now that I have a chrono, I should chrono some .44 loads. I may well shoot it some in a few IDPA matches after october. Might be fun. Not very competitive, but fun.

Ted

 

[SpiderJohn]

I carry a SS ported 445. My wife has a Rossi 720 with a 3" barrel.

The porting and the short barrel do have an effect on speed. I have been running a 180 gr. PFP from Berry's on top of 5.5 grains of Tight Group.

With out going back to look at my notes, I seem to remember my 445 gives me 675 to 725 fps with this load. In my wifes 3" M720 the same load yields 775 to 825 fps.

I have run this combination up to 6.5 grains of tightgroup (WARNING: this is a full grain over max loads in all the manuals I referenced) The speed picked up about 75-100 fps if I recall correctly, no signs of over pressure.

I quit doing it only because it was over the max recommended load and I don't have any accurate means of testing the pressure.

Below is my opinion only. YMMV

I found that no matter what I shot out of the 445, 180 gr. through 240 gr. bullets, it always shot low. I ended up taking almost a 1/16th inch off the front sight.

I don't know if a hollow point will open at 725 fps. I need to try that.

I like both guns. I would carry either one without hesitation. Even if a hollowpoint doesn't open up, it won't shrink any. That in and of itself is probably the biggest reason we both like 44's.

You asked about recoil in the 445. I put it a little below a 1911 and above a 38 +P in an SP 101.

The porting doesn't seem to affect recoil or barrel jump much at all. I find it no different in either respect to the M720.

If it were available, I would buy a SS non ported 445 just to take advantage of the extra enclosed barrel length.

I have run 1800+ rounds through my 445 and it shoots like the day I brought it home.


Hope this helps.

 

[355sigfan]

The problem I have with the concept is the 5 shot 44's are the size of 6 shot 357's. You would be at least as well served if not much better served by a 6 shot 357 mag on the same frame. But thats my opinion. Others vary.
Pat

 

[sm]

I like the Concept - a bunch.

I had the CA Bulldog and Carried it a lot. I shot too many hot loads and loosened it up.
Now the 24-3 ( like Majic's ) is a great gun. I didn't want to hand back the one I shot. I carry one in a heartbeat.

I like the .44spl a LOT. Low pressure round with a "push" type recoil. I was piddlin' with testing loads indoors and inside cars - .44spl was real good for a Bedside gun, and travel gun in the car. Sit in a old car and shoot your gun sometime. I used ( with permisson) junk cars with the doors shut and windows up....fire one inside like that sometime. Makes one appreciate the .38spl and .44 spl.

You have to admit seeing the "big ole" .44 spl HP from front of cylinder is...well - BIG!

 

[Dave Williams]

A few other people mentioned this, but a range session with a 44 snubby is not going to be very fun. I just had a 250 rd range session with my new to me Model 66 2 1/2" and it was a blast. Plus, I can be competitive in IDPA and PPC Undercover Gun with my M66, which I couldn't do with a 5 shot 44 snub. The 6 shot .38/.357 is more of a multi purpose gun, which for a guy who doesn't/can't own 20 different revolvers, is a big deal.


Dave Williams

 

[tulsamal]

It works for me! I carry a 296 every day loaded with CorBon's. I use the 720 as a goat killing gun and it drops them right there with a shot between the eyes. I put larger wooden grips on the 296 and that made it a lot more comfortable to shoot. I cared more about the weight than the size since I carry in a Wilderness Safepacker.

Nice guns and .44 Special always surprises me with the accuracy. And I can get a good solid working load without all the blast and flash of .357 in my 640 I used to carry.

Gregg

 

[surfinUSA]

I don't know the exact weights but I do know that the full underlug L frame is very similar in weight to an N frame in the same barrel length.

For me, I like the 3 inch 44 mag. Then I can use special or magnum as I see fit or as is available when not near home.

In the L frame I'd rather have seven 357 magnums than five 44 specials.

Dave, the three inch 44s are great at the range when using specials. The N frame is a very comfortable gun to shoot with specials.

 

[Majic]

Dave opinions of fun will vary among people, but a .44sp will shoot much softer than a .357mag loaded with magnum ammo.

 

[Stainz]

Tulsamal,

I have those same wood grips available for my K/L frames, but I elected for the rounded UM's combats for my 296 since they cover that backstrap. Isn't that backstrap a bit rough, ie, hard, on recoil? With the little boot grips that came on it, it was 'rough'. I like the look & feel of wood...

How are those CorBons in recoil compared with the Blazers? After having a Blazer Al case split in my 696, I went to the Starline brass cased Georgia Arms ammo (Same Speer #4427 Gold Dot 200gr bullet.), with similar results. I have also loaded those bullets over Speer's midrange reccomended load of 5.7gr TiteGroup to get nearly identical results in my practice ammo.

Stainz

 

[mete]

Winchester's Silvertip 44 special has been redesigned and will actually expand on BGs at the 750 fps velocity.

 

[Cosmoline]

I was eyeing some of these as a possibility for bear defense/ccw combined. But frankly I found the Taurus Titanium snub in .45 Colt easier to conceal and quite a bit lighter. It is rated for +p loads as well.